PoH needs to go!... and other Priest ideas.

90 Pandaren Priest
7670
PoH has always felt clunky to me - what with its group only restriction and 30 yard group range. It is the only spell whose usefulness depends on how the raid is organized and whose output drops if some in the group dies or is out of range. Frankly, PoH feels outdated and needs an overhaul.

I've been thinking about a suitable PoH replacement that retains the Priest-ly flavour for a while and this is what I'd like to suggestt:

<Insert name here (sorry, I'm bad at this!)>
This spell would basically serve as the inverse of Mind Sear. It would heal for as much as a Disc Priest's PoH and have a 3 second channel with 4 ticks. The range of the spell would obviously be 40 yards and would be a smart heal that targets any raid member within 20 yards of the initial target.

These are just base numbers, but the main point is the concept of the spell, rather than the exact numbers.

While GC may have acknowledged that Disc uses PoH far too much (especially in a 25m setting), the fact of the matter is that Holy uses it just as much. The question is, what's to prevent a Priest from simply spamming this smart raid heal? The answer is to simply increase the synergy between the various spells in our toolkit to encourage the weaving of our various spells.

This then brings me to the suggested updates to the Disc spec:

1) With PoH gone, there needs to be a suitable replacement to allow for SS usage. As such, I'm bringing PoH back again! My idea is to give SS two flavours depending on whether you're in Inner Will or Inner Fire.

With Inner Will up, you'd get SS/PoH. It would function exactly the way it does now, except that with PoH completely removed from our toolkit, it allows for greater balancing of SS without too adversely affecting our raid healing abilities.

Conversely, with Inner Fire up, you'd get SS/<single target heal>. My initial thought is to make it a 1.5s cast for PvP purposes.

2) There needs to be an incentive to cast more than just our raid heal and this can be done via buffing BT. Changing BT to increase Haste AND Crit by 15% would serve the purpose of increasing our HPS and allow DA to become a passive part of our raid healing again. I suspect that with the right BT numbers, it should become optimal to weave in a PW:S between our casts.

3) But more can be done to encourage casting just PW:S and our raid heal. I would like to see Grace become a buff for the Priest rather than on the player. The new Grace would have 2 stacks only, with each increasing the healing of our direct heals AND Atonement by 10%. Its duration would be 15s and the triggers would be any direct or Atonement heals.

The idea behind this is that it would serve as incentive to weave in Atonements between our casts, especially Penance and HF/Solace.

As an aside, HF would be an instant cast, just like Solace will be.

4) As it stands, it's quite impossible to trigger every AA on cooldown, and if fights mandate the usage of SS on a 1-min timer, it means that Priests are holding out on AA till SS is up due to the exceedingly tight timing requirements of SS. Thus, I propose reducing the CD of AA to 20s, reduce its healing boost to 20% and make it a 15s buff.

Overall, it will still provide the same healing boost if used on CD and the reduction to 20% would serve as a minor temper to the extremely high peak output of SS. This should allow Priests greater flexibility when using AA, whilst still rewarding good usage of it.

5) This is a minor issue, but as suggested by others, it would be nice to see PW:S be affected by Crit. This would enable greater synergy between our secondary stats and spells. Still, a slight reducton to the base value of PW:S might be necessary to off-set this buff.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Anyway, moving on to Holy. Once again, the same issue crops up - preventing the heavy reliance on one spell alone.

1) I would reduce the healing boost from the respective Chakras, with each only providing a 10% boost to their respective type of heal.

Chakras would still retain their Holy Words and unique flavour (i.e. Serenity would still allow for the refreshing of Renew). Although, I would like to see the duration of HW: Sanctuary reduced and its healing possibly increased, which should allow it to be used more often.

2) Still, to encourage greater usage of our main heals (the new raid heal, CoH, PoM, DH and Renew) regardless of which Chakra you're in, I would simply remove the 'tax' on these spells. Thus, Chakra: Serenity would only boost our direct heals while Chakra: Sanctuary would only affect our level 90 talents.

3) To encourage greater weaving of spells and to off-set the loss of the 25% Chakra buff, I propose implementing two new buffs: Serenity and Sanctuary. The buffs would be able to stack to 3 and would work as follows:

Serenity: Your direct heals and Renew increase the healing of your AoE heals by 15% and reduce their mana cost by 5% per stack.

Sanctuary: Your AoE heals increase the healing of your direct heals and Renew by 20% and reduce their mana cost by 5% per stack.

These buffs would simply be mirrors of each other, and with proper numbers for the buff, could encourage weaving in Renews and direct heals within our AoE rotation.

4) A minor gripe, but whilst Lightspring may have decent numbers on the meters, its functionality as a proper raid heal leaves something to be desired. This may garner some objection, but I would make Lightspring baseline. Additionally, I would reduce the proc duration to 0.5s and allow it to heal for the same amount over 4/5 seconds.

Further, it would be nice if we could activate and deactivate the Lightspring by pressing the hotkey for it. after it has been placed. This would allow us to control when it actually heals, turning it into a much more reliable second raid cooldown without the need to hold out on casting it.

Anyway, these are just some of the ideas I've been holding on to for a while, and I certainly don't expect any of them to be implemented. Still, one can dream! Regardless, thoughts and comments will be appreciated.
Edited by Ceddya on 1/20/2013 4:59 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
This is interesting so far. I look forward to see what else you have come up with.
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90 Tauren Druid
8710
I agree with thread title. PoH needs to go, along with other priest ideas. Please stop. You've had your time in the sun, calmly shush and just play the game for once when you're not overpowered. You know, like the rest of us do.
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90 Night Elf Priest
13930
I actually really hate the idea of removing PoH for Holy, nor do I at all agree that Holy uses it just as much. Upwards of 80% of Disc's healing is often either PoH or a derivative of the ability (DA/SS). There is no comparison to be made when healing as Holy.

I will say that CoH and Sanc do need attention, and ought to receive it. Doing that should make the disparity between Disc and Holy's uses of PoH even greater.

01/20/2013 03:03 PMPosted by Tonydanza
I agree with thread title. PoH needs to go, along with other priest ideas. Please stop. You've had your time in the sun, calmly shush and just play the game for once when you're not overpowered. You know, like the rest of us do.


I'm sorry you feel that no one should try to better their class unless they're completely underpowered. Perhaps you should take your own advice and calmly shush, as it seems you have nothing constructive to add.
Edited by Elethia on 1/20/2013 3:07 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
01/20/2013 03:05 PMPosted by Elethia
I actually really hate the idea of removing PoH for Holy, nor do I at all agree that Holy uses it just as much. Upwards of 80% of Disc's healing is often either PoH or a derivative of the ability (DA/SS). There is no comparison to be made when healing as Holy.


Penance is actually an analogue for CoH, and I find myself using both with similar frequency in raids.

Apart from weaving in a CoH (much like how Disc weaves in a Penance for Evan or PW:S for Rapture) and using PoM more frequently, Holy still mostly casts PoH when our level 90 talents are on CD. The main difference is that we're not casting PoH all the time as Holy has no way to stack DA (thankfully!), but that doesn't mean that it's not our go-to spell for most forms of raid damage.

I admit my main reason for wanting PoH gone is that I dislike the mechanical restrictions of PoH. Nothing frustrates me more in raids than when someone dies, as it means a reduced efficiency of my group. The other issue I have with PoH is that it is so easily sniped by the other raid heals.

Still, these are personal grievances, so QQ more I will. :P
Edited by Ceddya on 1/20/2013 3:16 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Priest
13930
I disagree. Penance does not serve the same role in raids as CoH. Comparing a single-target heal to an AE ability is problematic at best.

If Holy's AE abilities are all working at the acceptable level, you should see these in play during AE healing:

PoM
PoH
Sanc
CoH
Level 90

Disc:

PoM
PoH
Level 90

One can argue for the use of Atonement, but you're not going to use that during heavy AE outside of a gimmick damage mod fight.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12945
I would never want to see PoH completely gone, especially for Holy. And when Sanctuary and COH are actually powerful spells, Holy has no problem weaving in CoH, Sanctuary, & PoM with their PoH usage.

Disc doesn't have this luxury because PoH IS ALL THEY HAVE!! I'd like to see PoH remain with Disc and them given a new spell to weave in with their PoH.

My ideas from another thread:


Prayer of Refuge - 10 sec cooldown - Instant Cast
Surrounds 4 of the most injured allies in a protective shield that absorbs X damage. Lasts 6 sec. When the shield breaks or its duration ends, the shield bursts healing all allies within 15 yards of each target for Y health.

Light Sear - 5 sec channel
As a Discipline Priest, your Mind Sear becomes Light Sear. Causes an explosion of holy magic around the target, causing X holy damage every 1 sec for 5 sec to all enemies within 10 yards of the target and Y healing every 1 sec for 5 sec to all allies within 15 yards of the target.

Renewed Hope - Instant Cast - 8 sec cooldown
Sends 5 of the most injured allies Renewed Hope for 8 sec. Renewed Hope grants the target an absorption shield of X every 2 sec. After 8 sec are up, the target is healed for 100% of the remaining shield.

Orb of Lights – Instant Cast – 15 sec cooldown – 30 yard range
Places a holy orb on the ground healing all allies within 30 yards for X every 2 sec for 8 sec. After reaching the end of its duration, the orb explodes granting 6 of the most injured allies within 40 yards a shield which absorbs Y damage.

Power Word: Sanctity – Instant Cast – 20 sec cooldown
Causes your next Power Word: Shield to become Power Word: Sanctity. Power Word: Sanctity absorbs 25% more damage and instantly heals all allies within 30 yards of this target for X% of the absorption shield.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10380
While I agree that PoH has frustrating mechanical issues, I'm dubious about the idea of replacing it with a range-restricted spammable smart heal. It sounds too much like Improved Chain Heal or Improved Holy Radiance, which - in addition to being unfair to shamans and paladins - would have to be a good bit weaker than PoH in throughput, meaning the throughput would have to be made up somewhere else, probably in some even more awkward spell like Sanc.

You saw my ideas in the other thread, but I'll re-suggest them here for discussion purposes:
Prayer of Healing - Discipline: No longer automatically applies Divine Aegis. Now applies Divine Aegis for 30% of the overhealing on each target affected, in addition to the Divine Aegis generated by Critical effects.

Prayer of Healing - Holy: 50% of the overhealing on each target affected by Prayer of Healing now heals a friendly low-health party or raid member within 15 yards of that target. This effect is increased by the priest's Critical chance.

Sort of a compromise between the 'kill PoH!' and 'don't touch my PoH!' positions

The Holy version is probably about on par with Chain Heal if used as pure smart heal, but retains its current strength when used as a party heal. The two functionalities blend seamlessly, reducing a lot of the awkward square-peg-in-round-hole feeling of the current spell, but the smart heal isn't strong enough to usurp the niche of Holy's real smart heal. (I also threw in the crit bonus just because I think crit ought to be a more useful stat for healing :)

The Disc version retains the ability to shield full-health people (at a lower level than SS) and to heal low-health people, but it doesn't do both at full strength on the same target. Again, the functionalities blend seamlessly, but the shielding isn't good enough that you'd prefer it over PWS or SS. The DA conversion value could be higher than 30%, but I think it should probably be less than the smart heal conversion value for Holy just because it's a shield.

Ideally, they should be balanced so the Holy and Disc versions do the same raw healing (i.e. take Holy's off the Chakra list and balance the base numbers to taste.)
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10380
I disagree. Penance does not serve the same role in raids as CoH. Comparing a single-target heal to an AE ability is problematic at best.

If Holy's AE abilities are all working at the acceptable level, you should see these in play during AE healing:

PoM
PoH
Sanc
CoH
Level 90

Disc:

PoM
PoH
Level 90

One can argue for the use of Atonement, but you're not going to use that during heavy AE outside of a gimmick damage mod fight.

Penance is actually a really good analogue to CoH when used offensively, which is, I suspect, what Ceddya is thinking.

I'd like to add that you should also see Renew in play for Holy, but Chakra is screwing that up. (Although Renew-rolling with Chakra-boosted Renews in 10m is actually an entirely viable AoE strategy, which is cool, but it would be even more cool if it were something that could be mixed in with other strategies.)
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10380
Prayer of Refuge - 10 sec cooldown - Instant Cast
Surrounds 4 of the most injured allies in a protective shield that absorbs X damage. Lasts 6 sec. When the shield breaks or its duration ends, the shield bursts healing all allies within 15 yards of each target for Y health.

I like.
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90 Worgen Druid
11990
GC has recently said that POH will most likely go the way of a smart heal this expansion, so just hold on a bit more :D
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90 Night Elf Priest
13930
Penance is actually a really good analogue to CoH when used offensively, which is, I suspect, what Ceddya is thinking.

I'd like to add that you should also see Renew in play for Holy, but Chakra is screwing that up. (Although Renew-rolling with Chakra-boosted Renews in 10m is actually an entirely viable AoE strategy, which is cool, but it would be even more cool if it were something that could be mixed in with other strategies.)


I disagree. I mentioned there being a potential argument for Atonement (including offensive Penance), but it's still not really the same thing as CoH.

And yes, I probably should have included Renew. I was thinking 25 more than 10. My main point was that, looking at what each spec has, Holy works with a great deal more filler and has far more spells that aren't directly related to PoH than does Disc.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10380
01/20/2013 04:20 PMPosted by Elethia
I disagree. I mentioned there being a potential argument for Atonement (including offensive Penance), but it's still not really the same thing as CoH.

Why not? It's a powerful 40-yard-range multitarget smart heal that you can pretty much hit on CD if there's raid damage.

3 targets vs. 5 is a significant difference, but so is e.g. HoT vs. direct heal, and I don't think anyone would argue that WG isn't closely analogous to CoH.
Edited by Kaels on 1/20/2013 4:36 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/20/2013 04:35 PMPosted by Kaels
Why not? It's a powerful 40-yard-range multitarget smart heal that you can pretty much hit on CD if there's raid damage.


Because unlike CoH, which can and should be used even during heavy AoE damage, using offensive Penance during heavy AoE is stupid. You need to use PoH.

3 targets vs. 5 is a significant difference, but so is e.g. HoT vs. direct heal, and I don't think anyone would argue that WG isn't closely analogous to CoH.


They're not the same thing, and Penance is not the same as CoH. Really don't understand your drive to try to pretend they are.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
I disagree. I mentioned there being a potential argument for Atonement (including offensive Penance), but it's still not really the same thing as CoH.

And yes, I probably should have included Renew. I was thinking 25 more than 10. My main point was that, looking at what each spec has, Holy works with a great deal more filler and has far more spells that aren't directly related to PoH than does Disc.


But we're just arguing semantics here at this point. I'm effectively using an offensive Penance as often as I use a CoH in raids. There's no reason to not include it in the list, especially if Sanc is being counted, because even looking at the top Holy parses, it's being cast at most 1-2 times per fight (and I suspect its mostly at the start to pad when mana isn't an issue)

You should update Disc's list to: PoH, Offensive Penance, PW:S, PoM and level 90 talents.

As it stands, for both specs, if CoH/Penance, PoM and our level 90 talents are on cooldown, they still end up using PoH. Holy probably doesn't feel as PoH spammy because it doesn't stack DA, doesn't have to PoH/SS spam every min and because it has DH every 3 mins.

Also, as Kaels' said, there's very little reason to use Renew in 25 mans because of the Chakra tax. That's one of the reasons why I would like to see our main heals be removed from Chakra whilst finding other ways to compensate those spells. It would most certainly encourage using our spells based on the situation, rather than ploughing through most damage with PoH.
Edited by Ceddya on 1/20/2013 4:58 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10380
Because unlike CoH, which can and should be used even during heavy AoE damage, using offensive Penance during heavy AoE is stupid. You need to use PoH.

I'm pretending this is an alternate universe where Disc's PoH isn't wildly OP. This was the hypothetical:
If [Disc's] AE abilities are all working at the acceptable level, you should see these in play during AE healing:

If Disc's AoE abilities were all balanced at an appropriate level, you should see offensive Penance in play for AoE healing. Maybe not in exactly the same way at exactly the same frequency, but you should see it. It should be on the list if Sanc is.
They're not the same thing, and Penance is not the same as CoH. Really don't understand your drive to try to pretend they are.

I said "analogous", not "the same thing." Holy Shock isn't the same thing as Riptide either, but they're definitely analogous to each other.
Edited by Kaels on 1/20/2013 4:59 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
I'm pretending this is an alternate universe where Disc's PoH isn't wildly OP. This was the hypothetical:
If [Disc's] AE abilities are all working at the acceptable level, you should see these in play during AE healing:

If Disc's AoE abilities were all balanced at an appropriate level, you should see offensive Penance in play for AoE healing. Maybe not in exactly the same way at exactly the same frequency, but you should see it. It should be on the list if Sanc is.


It would still be stupid as hell to cast a spell to heal 3 people, not of your choosing, when the other 7/22 are taking heavy damage.

They're not the same thing, and Penance is not the same as CoH. Really don't understand your drive to try to pretend they are.

I said "analogous", not "the same thing." Holy Shock isn't the same thing as Riptide either, but they're definitely analogous to each other.


I don't think comparing Penance and CoH is the way to go. I really do not agree with you on this one, Kaels. Sorry.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Because unlike CoH, which can and should be used even during heavy AoE damage, using offensive Penance during heavy AoE is stupid. You need to use PoH.


It's really not a big HPS loss to weave in a Penance, and it's offset by the Evangalism/AA stack you gain for SS later on. The only time I would never weave in an offensive Penance is when SS is active, but that's for obvious reasons.

In a sense though, you are correct. With the current incarnation of PoH+DA, there isn't really a requirement to weave in an offensive Penance as you can obtain similar numbers by just spamming PoH. This is all set to change for 5.2 though, and Disc will probably end up using PoH far less than Holy does.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
01/20/2013 05:02 PMPosted by Tiriél
It would still be stupid as hell to cast a spell to heal 3 people, not of your choosing, when the other 7/22 are taking heavy damage.


Wouldn't you be better off letting the smart heal from Atonement heal the lowest targets whilst the rest of your healer/s top up the raid? It seems like it'd be more beneficial than simply casting 1 PoH on 1 group.

With the amount of overhealing I see it logs, most groups definitely have the necessary capability to heal up every kind of raid damage in this tier. The main thing that leads to death is sub-optimal healing target selection (i.e. not enough heals on a particular person) rather than simply a lack of HPS. In this regard, wouldn't the smart healing capabilities of Atonement prove most beneficial?
Edited by Ceddya on 1/20/2013 5:08 PM PST
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