PoH needs to go!... and other Priest ideas.

100 Blood Elf Priest
12945
01/20/2013 05:06 PMPosted by Ceddya
The main thing that leads to death is sub-optimal healing target selection (i.e. not enough heals on a particular person) rather than simply a lack of HPS. In this regard, wouldn't the smart healing capabilities of Atonement prove most beneficial?

^
Also,
01/20/2013 05:02 PMPosted by Tiriél
It would still be stupid as hell to cast a spell to heal 3 people, not of your choosing, when the other 7/22 are taking heavy damage.

The stipulation wasn't "spells used for maximum HPS during heavy raidwide AoE phases." It was "spells used for AoE healing." Penance doesn't need to be used in exactly the same way as CoH in order to be comparable enough that it belongs on the list. Which it clearly does. It's a multitarget smart heal.

Even if I conceded that it doesn't belong in a heavy-raidwide-damage rotation (I don't), it's clearly used for some types of AoE healing (localized damage, random/scattered damage) for precisely the same reason CoH is.
Edited by Kaels on 1/20/2013 5:17 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12945
I think the above discussion/comparison brings to light even more so that Disc is missing its "AoE weave in ability"

Lots of healers have their single-target umph spell:

Shamans-Riptide/Paladins-Holy Shock/Druids-Swiftmend/Hpriests-Serenity/Disc-Penance

And many have their AoE weave-in spell:

Shamans-Stream, Rain/Paladins-Dawn/Druids-WG/Hpriests-CoH/Disc.....

Penance? PoM?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/20/2013 05:06 PMPosted by Ceddya
It would still be stupid as hell to cast a spell to heal 3 people, not of your choosing, when the other 7/22 are taking heavy damage.


Wouldn't you be better off letting the smart heal from Atonement heal the lowest targets whilst the rest of your healer/s top up the raid? It seems like it'd be more beneficial than simply casting 1 PoH on 1 group.

With the amount of overhealing I see it logs, most groups definitely have the necessary capability to heal up every kind of raid damage in this tier. The main thing that leads to death is sub-optimal healing target selection (i.e. not enough heals on a particular person) rather than simply a lack of HPS. In this regard, wouldn't the smart healing capabilities of Atonement prove most beneficial?


I heal with a Paladin. Him quickly and effectively topping off the raid is not going to happen.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
01/20/2013 05:06 PMPosted by Ceddya
Wouldn't you be better off letting the smart heal from Atonement heal the lowest targets whilst the rest of your healer/s top up the raid? It seems like it'd be more beneficial than simply casting 1 PoH on 1 group.


Not really, because pretty much everyone else has a smart healing going out constantly. CoH, WG, RM+Uplift, Chain Heal....

That's why I don't have Atonement on the list. It's not analogous to the role CoH serves/should serve in raids.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
The main thing that leads to death is sub-optimal healing target selection (i.e. not enough heals on a particular person) rather than simply a lack of HPS. In this regard, wouldn't the smart healing capabilities of Atonement prove most beneficial?

^


I don't understand this obsession with HPS. When I look at a spell in my spellbook, I am not remotely thinking about the amount of HPS it's giving me. "Omg, will this allow me to cast more HPS than the Paladin over there." I'm thinking about which spell is going to get the job done with the least chance of someone biting it. And in nearly every case, PoH trumps everything else because it's the only AOE I have.

You can say Penance is AOE until you're blue in the face. It's not. It can sometimes function with a semi-AoE capability when used offensive, but a) you don't always have the option of using it offensively and b) it still requires a channel and only hits 3 targets (and only if you're lucky).

Also,
01/20/2013 05:02 PMPosted by Tiriél
It would still be stupid as hell to cast a spell to heal 3 people, not of your choosing, when the other 7/22 are taking heavy damage.

The stipulation wasn't "spells used for maximum HPS during heavy raidwide AoE phases." It was "spells used for AoE healing." Penance doesn't need to be used in exactly the same way as CoH in order to be comparable enough that it belongs on the list. Which it clearly does. It's a multitarget smart heal.


I had already specifically said, "Heavy AOE." Also, I'm not saying it would be "maximum HPS" to use Penance or PoH. That never even came into the equation. I was never considering what would make me look best on the meters. I'm considering what will get the job done, Kaels. After knowing me this long, I'm a bit flabbergasted that you keep harping on HPS like I somehow give a flying rat's behind what my HPS is when people are dying in my raid. You know better.

Even if I conceded that it doesn't belong in a heavy-raidwide-damage rotation (I don't), it's clearly used for some types of AoE healing (localized damage, random/scattered damage) for precisely the same reason CoH is.


You don't have to concede that it doesn't belong in a heavey-raidwide-damage rotation, since you never play the spec. You haven't been in the fights with the heavy raidwide damage as Disc, and you have no real-world idea whether it would be useful or not. You play Holy and Shadow, and you are a dedicated Holy healer. And that's fine. But don't tell me that Penance is the same as your CoH. They're not. They are not the same spell, they function in different ways, and one is an instant cast that instantly heals up 5 separate targets, while the other is a 2 sec (~, depending on Haste, of course) channel that may or may not actually heal 3 targets when used offensively.

It's apples to oranges, and to be perfectly blunt, Kaels, I wish you would stop trying to force a square peg into a round hole. It doesn't fit.
Edited by Tiriél on 1/20/2013 5:31 PM PST
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Am I the only one who enjoys the party only aspect of PoH as both holy and disc? It was incredible when trash before yor'shaj was hard, put the tanks and healers in one group, and everyone else in the other, PoH the non-tank group when the purple exploded... win. There have been other encounters where I have been able to massively abuse the fact it is party only... and its not balanced around having to effectively heal all 5 target to be mana efficient... so its not like that's a big deal IMHO.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12945
I think the above discussion/comparison brings to light even more so that Disc is missing its "AoE weave in ability"

Lots of healers have their single-target umph spell:

Shamans-Riptide/Paladins-Holy Shock/Druids-Swiftmend/Hpriests-Serenity/Disc-Penance

And many have their AoE weave-in spell:

Shamans-Stream, Rain/Paladins-Dawn/Druids-WG/Hpriests-CoH/Disc.....

Penance? PoM?

Well...this is sort of an oversimplification.

Druids use Swiftmend as a weave-in on both AoE and ST (with WG added for AoE).

For paladins, LoD isn't actually a weave-in so much as a finisher; Holy Shock is actually the weave-in, even though, again, it's a ST heal.

Monks weave in RM no matter what they're doing (theirs is sort of the opposite of the paladin/druid situation, since they're weaving the AoE spell on a single-target).

Both flavours of priests weave in PoM on both AoE and ST, assuming there's raid damage.

So using one or more of the same spells for both isn't really unprecedented. What is unusual in the case of Penance is that the spell does the same amount of healing to the intended target/s in both applications.

SM does more as an AoE than it does to a single target; Holy Shock in AoE rotations does a boatload more healing; RM does far less to a single target than it does to the raid, as does PoM. But Penance is more-or-less the same amount of healing whether you dump it on one target or spread it to 3.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/20/2013 05:33 PMPosted by Alifer
Am I the only one who enjoys the party only aspect of PoH as both holy and disc? It was incredible when trash before yor'shaj was hard, put the tanks and healers in one group, and everyone else in the other, PoH the non-tank group when the purple exploded... win. There have been other encounters where I have been able to massively abuse the fact it is party only... and its not balanced around having to effectively heal all 5 target to be mana efficient... so its not like that's a big deal IMHO.


I like it, and I don't like it. The problem I run into is when I have to heal one party + 1 more person. That makes my life really freaking difficult. OR when 3 people from one party are in one spot, and 2 are in another. It's just really annoying.
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if its burst healing in that situation i flash heal the 1 person and poh the group (as holy) either order if disc. if its not burst, i'll renew the 1 and poh the others.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12945
01/20/2013 05:30 PMPosted by Tiriél
I had already specifically said, "Heavy AOE."

Yes, you're talking about heavy AoE. I wasn't talking about heavy AoE until you came in and responded to me with a discussion of heavy AoE.

I was talking about tools that Disc ought to be able to use regularly for (assorted and unspecified types of) AoE healing.

Also, I'm not saying it would be "maximum HPS" to use Penance or PoH. That never even came into the equation. I was never considering what would make me look best on the meters. I'm considering what will get the job done, Kaels. After knowing me this long, I'm a bit flabbergasted that you keep harping on HPS like I somehow give a flying rat's behind what my HPS is when people are dying in my raid. You know better.

I never implied that you were doing it for the meters. I just acknowledged that your spell choice might be different for heavy raidwide AoE, presumably because you need the higher throughput (also possibly because you're healing with a paladin. I play a paladin in a pally/disc comp, God knows I need the disc priest doing the blanket healing because I sure can't.)

You don't have to concede that it doesn't belong in a heavey-raidwide-damage rotation, since you never play the spec. You haven't been in the fights with the heavy raidwide damage as Disc, and you have no real-world idea whether it would be useful or not.

...you know I spent the entire beta testing Disc, right? You know I tested probably 2/3 of this tier's fights as Disc on both normal and heroic, 10, 25, and LFR? Don't tell me you've forgotten the 72 million beta threads about Disc issues that I started.

At the time, there were a whole lot of issues besides this one (being OOM halfway through every fight with 1/3 of the monk's healing done was fun), but this was an issue then, an issue in Cata, and I refuse to believe it's suddenly become not-an-issue just because it's been papered over again by godmode DAs. I don't need to play live Disc to know that it is important for every healer to have a way to heal multitarget damage that is not evenly distributed across a group.

Does Penance actually fill that void right now? I don't know. It seems to see some use for that purpose. Should it be fixed to fill that gap better? Absolutely yes...unless you're suggesting adding a new spell that does. In the absence of a new spell, Penance should be good enough to be counted among your AoE heals. It should have a level of importance on par with, and a role roughly similar to, CoH. If it's not currently good enough, it should be made to be good enough.

Does that make more sense?
Edited by Kaels on 1/20/2013 6:07 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
I don't understand this obsession with HPS. When I look at a spell in my spellbook, I am not remotely thinking about the amount of HPS it's giving me. "Omg, will this allow me to cast more HPS than the Paladin over there." I'm thinking about which spell is going to get the job done with the least chance of someone biting it. And in nearly every case, PoH trumps everything else because it's the only AOE I have.

You can say Penance is AOE until you're blue in the face. It's not. It can sometimes function with a semi-AoE capability when used offensive, but a) you don't always have the option of using it offensively and b) it still requires a channel and only hits 3 targets (and only if you're lucky).


If HPS doesn't matter, then you're much better off using a smart heal that targets the 3 lowest health targets over simply healing one party with PoH. By your criteria, Atonement/Penance is a much better tool.

The nature of raid damage is that some people will take more damage than others. This is where weaving an Atonement/Penance comes in. The secondary benefit is that you simultaneously gain an Evangalism/AA stack for your SS later on.

There are literally zero fights this tier whereby you're unable to or shouldn't weave in a Penance. H-Will/Garalon/Protectors with their constant ticking damage practically caters to it, especially if you're looking to maximize your SS. H-Elegon/SG/Ambershaper with their damage modifiers do too. Fights with random spikes in damage like H-Gara'jal/Spirit Kings and to a smaller extent Feng? Check, that's what the smart heal component is for. Or, what about encounters that have some form of movement either during or after the raid damage like H-Lei Shi/Ta'yak/Tsulong? There's where glyphed Atonement/Penance comes into the rotation, enabling you to move to an ideal position during its cast.

Still, fights with high raid damage like H-Zor'lok/Empress can still see good weaving of Atonement/Penance into your rotation. Simply cast it towards the tail end of the burst or as the raid is about to get fully topped as an extremely effective spot heal.

Ultimately, it matters not what labels we attach to offensive Penance. It's simply an effective smart heal that spot heals the 3 lowest raid members more often than not.

I have played as both Holy and Disc. I can assure you that I cast offensive Penance quite as often as I cast a CoH (especially if it's glyphed, damn mana cost increase) and I'm certainly going to be casting the buffed Penance on cooldown when appropriate come 5.2
Edited by Ceddya on 1/20/2013 6:09 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
01/20/2013 05:33 PMPosted by Alifer
Am I the only one who enjoys the party only aspect of PoH as both holy and disc? It was incredible when trash before yor'shaj was hard, put the tanks and healers in one group, and everyone else in the other, PoH the non-tank group when the purple exploded... win. There have been other encounters where I have been able to massively abuse the fact it is party only... and its not balanced around having to effectively heal all 5 target to be mana efficient... so its not like that's a big deal IMHO.


With ideal conditions, PoH is exceedingly fun to play with, and many fights this tier cater to its usage.

It just gets annoying to use when someone in the group is out of range or dead for whatever reason. Also, it's one of the few heals that absolutely requires a proper raid frame mod in order to use effectively. Either that or you've got to ensure that the raid groups are organized precisely.

All these limitations can obviously be overcome, but it just sometimes gets pretty annoying to use, especially when compared to the smart raid heals of the other healers.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Not really, because pretty much everyone else has a smart healing going out constantly. CoH, WG, RM+Uplift, Chain Heal....

That's why I don't have Atonement on the list. It's not analogous to the role CoH serves/should serve in raids.


Why not? I use CoH and Atonement for the exact same reason - as a spot heal, especially when the conditions are not ideal for PoH.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
01/20/2013 06:21 PMPosted by Ceddya
Why not? I use CoH and Atonement for the exact same reason - as a spot heal, especially when the conditions are not ideal for PoH.


CoH hits 5-6 people instantly. Atonement hits 1 person at a time anywhere from instantly (HF and Penance's first tick) to whatever your haste has your Smite.

When CoH is appropriately powered, during heavy damage you're using it on CD, PoM on CD and filling with PoH. You should not be doing the same thing with Penance as Disc. You'll be using PoM on CD and filling with PoH/SS.
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
18140
Not really, because pretty much everyone else has a smart healing going out constantly. CoH, WG, RM+Uplift, Chain Heal....


Not really, Chain Heal is probably the least used smart heal in the game. Just sayin for your "constantly" statement.
Edited by Sensations on 1/20/2013 6:41 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
01/20/2013 06:33 PMPosted by Elethia
When CoH is appropriately powered, during heavy damage you're using it on CD, PoM on CD and filling with PoH. You should not be doing the same thing with Penance as Disc. You'll be using PoM on CD and filling with PoH/SS.


Which heavy damage phases would you deem it unwise to use an offensive Penance?
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
01/20/2013 06:33 PMPosted by Sensations
Not really, because pretty much everyone else has a smart healing going out constantly. CoH, WG, RM+Uplift, Chain Heal....


Not really, Chain Heal is probably the least used smart heal in the game. Just sayin :p


It may be the least used, but it's still used. I should have said "smart heals are/should be going out [nearly] constantly from the contribution of other healers," though.

My point is that using Atonement during heavy phases on non-gimmick fights is rarely good play because of how and how many people it heals. While CoH is on the weak side right now, when it is at the appropriate strength it's absolutely worth using on CD during heavy damage.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12945
I'm not sure how 3 heals, one at a time over ~1.8 seconds, that are near-guaranteed to hit the lowest health target in the raid when each goes out is a substantially worse mechanic than 4 heals (one of which is barely big enough to count), all at once after a 2.3-second cast, that will probably hit injured targets if the raid is still configured properly when the cast goes off.

If CH is mechanically acceptable during high damage, Penance ought to be as well. If there's a numbers problem making it inadequate, that should be fixed, but the mechanic isn't inherently broken.
Edited by Kaels on 1/20/2013 6:58 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
I may very well have been mistaken to mention CH. I'm certainly no expert on Resto Shaman. I was simply trying to illustrate the fact that, in most situations, other healers will be bringing more/better smart healing than Disc—which is okay, and which means Disc should be working more on that even layering of heals.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
You absolutely should be weaving in an offensive Penance in "heavy raid damage" phases, especially so in the next patch. There's no reason not to, in 10m at least.
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