PoH needs to go!... and other Priest ideas.

90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/20/2013 07:44 PMPosted by Qùess
You absolutely should be weaving in an offensive Penance in "heavy raid damage" phases, especially so in the next patch. There's no reason not to, in 10m at least.


Next patch. I still disagree with that this patch. I'm casting other things, and I'm not wasting CDs to channel a spell that will, at most, heal 3 people when I'm handling other things, sorry.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Next patch. I still disagree with that this patch. I'm casting other things, and I'm not wasting CDs to channel a spell that will, at most, heal 3 people when I'm handling other things, sorry.


Next patch, each tick of Atonement will heal 3 of the lowest health raid members for 55k each versus a 35k heal PoH. Also, using offensive Penance gives you a stack of Evangalism, effectively giving a +5% healing boost to your next SS or current output.

With the strength of PoH+DA right now, it can be justifiable to not use Penance on CD offensively, but there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to not cast it on CD (or whenever there's damage going out) in 5.2 IMHO.
Edited by Ceddya on 1/20/2013 8:20 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Priest
13420
01/20/2013 07:44 PMPosted by Qùess
You absolutely should be weaving in an offensive Penance in "heavy raid damage" phases, especially so in the next patch. There's no reason not to, in 10m at least.


I can see it next patch. Right now, I cannot see it being worthwhile on 25 unless you're running.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/20/2013 08:19 PMPosted by Ceddya
Next patch. I still disagree with that this patch. I'm casting other things, and I'm not wasting CDs to channel a spell that will, at most, heal 3 people when I'm handling other things, sorry.


Next patch, each tick of Atonement will heal 3 of the lowest health raid members for 55k each versus a 35k heal PoH. Also, using offensive Penance gives you a stack of Evangalism, effectively giving a +5% healing boost to your next SS or current output.

With the strength of PoH+DA right now, it can be justifiable to not use Penance on CD offensively, but there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to not cast it on CD (or whenever there's damage going out) in 5.2 IMHO.


You're right, next patch it will be justified. Right now? No. The only time I'd use it is, as Elethia said, while moving (and I do).
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
01/20/2013 08:23 PMPosted by Elethia
I can see it next patch. Right now, I cannot see it being worthwhile on 25 unless you're running.


'There are literally zero fights this tier whereby you're unable to or shouldn't weave in a Penance. H-Will/Garalon/Protectors with their constant ticking damage practically caters to it, especially if you're looking to maximize your SS. H-Elegon/SG/Ambershaper with their damage modifiers do too. Fights with random spikes in damage like H-Gara'jal/Spirit Kings and to a smaller extent Feng? Check, that's what the smart heal component is for. Or, what about encounters that have some form of movement either during or after the raid damage like H-Lei Shi/Ta'yak/Tsulong? There's where glyphed Atonement/Penance comes into the rotation, enabling you to move to an ideal position during its cast.

Still, fights with high raid damage like H-Zor'lok/Empress can still see good weaving of Atonement/Penance into your rotation. Simply cast it towards the tail end of the burst or as the raid is about to get fully topped as an extremely effective spot heal.'

Which fights do you think it's not worthwhile to use Atonement on?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Ceddya, who are you quoting? It's always important for you to cite your quotes.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
I'm quoting myself from the previous page. :)
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
Next patch. I still disagree with that this patch. I'm casting other things, and I'm not wasting CDs to channel a spell that will, at most, heal 3 people when I'm handling other things, sorry.


I use it if the damage is uneven. I know PoH would yield higher HPS, but if 3 people are lower than the rest, spread across groups, I penance. This happens fairly often for me at least, I use Penance a lot.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/20/2013 08:35 PMPosted by Qùess
Next patch. I still disagree with that this patch. I'm casting other things, and I'm not wasting CDs to channel a spell that will, at most, heal 3 people when I'm handling other things, sorry.


I use it if the damage is uneven. I know PoH would yield higher HPS, but if 3 people are lower than the rest, spread across groups, I penance. This happens fairly often for me at least, I use Penance a lot.


Not talking about that. Uneven damage (random) is just really good for Atonement in general. I do not normally use Atonement as a direct healing spell unless there is a) unexpectedly intense Tank damage (a tank "fat-fingers" a CD, or just a fight like h Stone Guard where the damage on the tank with 2 bosses is very intense on top of everything else) or b) someone is extremely low and I can't target the boss at that moment (or we're moving and it's just easier to use Penance on them).

When it's even, intense damage, I'm doing something else. Like, towards the end of Empress, I don't atonement past getting the 5 stacks and hitting AA. I'm normally blowing all of my saved CDs at that point. But I DO use Atonement on H Blade Lord during the Blade Tempest because it's extra damage on the boss + it will hit anyone who didn't get away correctly.

I'm just saying that Penance != CoH, and they don't play the same role in the raid.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
When it's even, intense damage, I'm doing something else. Like, towards the end of Empress, I don't atonement past getting the 5 stacks and hitting AA. I'm normally blowing all of my saved CDs at that point. But I DO use Atonement on H Blade Lord during the Blade Tempest because it's extra damage on the boss + it will hit anyone who didn't get away correctly.

I'm just saying that Penance != CoH, and they don't play the same role in the raid


You're right, I wouldn't use the Penance towards the end of the fight if there isn't a chance to use AA.

Here's another question though: if your mana were low towards the end of the fight and if you had two groups at half health, would you use a Glyphed CoH on cooldown either? It certainly isn't as efficient as PoH and also doesn't have the chance to proc DI.

My main argument wasn't whether they play the same role in raids. The main point is that I'm using these spells with roughly the same frequency and thus they both function as fillers between our PoH casts. This was the counter argument to the fact that Disc didn't have such fillers and as such only relies on PoH.

Regardless, on fights with heavy damage like H-Garalon/Will, you are essentially using 5 casts per min in order to get the 5 stack AA for SS, and this is roughly the same frequency with which you use CoH too.

Or, a better example. Assuming 10% haste, within each min on a fight with constant damage:

As Holy, I am casting ideally 7 CoHs and 6 PoMs for a total of 13 casts, taking up a total of 17.7 seconds

As Disc, I am casting 4 Penances and 1 HF to get 5 stacks of Evangalism, together with 4 casts of PW:S to proc Raptures and 2 PoMs (naturally, Disc does not cast it as often as Holy). This takes up a total of 16.9 seconds.

Essentially, these are the main fillers for each spec give or take. As most of our non-filler time is spent on casting PoH, I don't think it's a stretch to claim that Holy does have similar reliance on PoH as Disc. The main reasons Holy does not feel as PoH-spammy as Disc is because it isn't able to DA stack, it doesn't rely on SS/PoH as its CD and its tighter mana restrictions means that there is more downtime for Holy.
Edited by Ceddya on 1/20/2013 10:20 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/20/2013 09:54 PMPosted by Ceddya
Here's another question though: if your mana were low towards the end of the fight and if you had two groups at half health, would you use a Glyphed CoH on cooldown either? It certainly isn't as efficient as PoH and also doesn't have the chance to proc DI.


Depends on the situation, but I don't glyph CoH. I'm in a 10 man, and my mana is tight enough as it is (it just seems a LOT tighter as Holy than as Disc) that when I am Holy, it isn't worth it. The times that I am Holy most often involve me with people who aren't in a single party, so CoH is a lifesaver. It's absolutely worth using on CD if there is raid-wide damage, even if my mana is low, and especially if I'm moving.

I should add that we don't have any pets in our raid (no Hunter or Lock), so there's no chance of the CoH getting consumed by a pet.

My main argument wasn't whether they play the same role in raids. The main point is that I'm using these spells with roughly the same frequency and thus they both function as fillers between our PoH casts. This was the counter argument to the fact that Disc didn't have such fillers and as such only relies on PoH.


I would say that I use Penance almost on CD, but I only use CoH on CD if there is raid-wide damage, or if I am moving and I need to heal someone more than a Renew.

Regardless, on fights with heavy damage like H-Garalon/Will, you are essentially using 5 casts per min in order to get the 5 stack AA for SS, and this is roughly the same frequency with which you use CoH too.


I can't speak to either fight, but I find that on the normal encounters of each, I do more Atonement healing than I do PoH. I generally use PoH exclusively to SS the raid on GAralon, as it is not very good at bursting people up, and that's going to be the only time I'm hitting my AA button. On N Will, I am exclusively tank healing, with our Druid responsible for raid damage beyond some emergency bubbles, so I may never actually use SS or PoH during the encounter, as it is not enough to keep a tank up who is taking spike damage.

Or, a better example. Assuming 10% haste, within each min on a fight with constant damage:

As Holy, I am casting ideally 7 CoHs and 6 PoMs for a total of 13 casts, taking up a total of 17.7 seconds

As Disc, I am casting 4 Penances and 1 HF to get 5 stacks of Evangalism, together with 4 casts of PW:S to proc Raptures and 2 PoMs (naturally, Disc does not cast it as often as Holy). This takes up a total of 16.9 seconds.


And if you're me, you're casting PoM on CD if there is raid damage (or just to put it on the tanks), and smiting near-exclusively outside of PW: Shield on the tanks.

Essentially, these are the main fillers for each spec give or take. As most of our non-filler time is spent on casting PoH, I don't think it's a stretch to claim that Holy does have similar reliance on PoH as Disc. The main reasons Holy does not feel as PoH-spammy as Disc is because it isn't able to DA stack, it doesn't rely on SS/PoH as its CD and its tighter mana restrictions means that there is more downtime for Holy.


I do agree with you that Holy is as dependent/nearly as dependent on PoH as Disc when their other spells are on CD. The difference is, when I'm in Holy, I have a CoH every 4 seconds (6 in Yellow Sanc), and it never seems like a bad choice to use it (except, again, maybe when I'm in Yellow Sanc). Also, it feels like PoH doesn't bring as big of a benefit, since there is no DA tacked onto the end when I'm Holy. Although, I really should value Echo of Light more, as when I have been Holy for progression, it has almost always been near-fully consumed.
Edited by Tiriél on 1/20/2013 11:06 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Priest
13420
01/20/2013 08:24 PMPosted by Ceddya
Which fights do you think it's not worthwhile to use Atonement on?


Let's be clear. I never argued that Atonement was not worthwhile on certain fights. I've been saying that CoH is not a good analogue to Penance [on 25M] because of how the healing occurs.

CoH is unquestionably an AE heal. It hits 5-6 people instantly. Right now, it's not that great because its healing is pretty low. When it is appropriately powered, however, it's well worth weaving into your AE casting during periods of heavy damage.

Offensive Penance will hit 3 people over the duration of its channel. At the 10M level, I can see where it has a place in heavy AE situation (though I'd argue that's with 4-5 stacks of Evangelism). At the 25M level, I simply cannot get away with using it when the raid is taking a ton of damage, barring, potentially, fights where its healing is significantly buffed by damage modifiers.
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90 Troll Priest
12105
Strictly speaking about PoH, I find a healing ability that is still party restrictive, this far into the game's life cycle, clunky and outdated. Should have been updated to a smart heal or something... ANYTHING that would bring it in line with other heals and release it from the draconic "party only" shackle.
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90 Night Elf Priest
13420
01/21/2013 07:06 PMPosted by Barthom
holy has, for as long as raidbot can reference, consistently been at the bottom of the meters for the last two years.


No. :/
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
01/21/2013 08:28 PMPosted by Barthom
yes


Nope.
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90 Gnome Priest
12120
01/21/2013 08:53 PMPosted by Qùess
yes


Nope.

To back this up:

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10H/all/14/60/default/#0000000000000000000000000000111111
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10H/all/14/60/default/#0000000000000000000000000000111111

Holy parses pretty well overall. Issue that makes it look low?

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10H/all/14/60/samples/#0000000000000000000000000000000110

Low number of people playing Holy. There are ~8 times as many Disc samples as Holy samples. Same reason Frost and Arcane Mages parsed so low at the beginning of Mists.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7290
So what I gathered from this whole debate, is that so many of us use poh because mathematically (in most situations) it does not make sense to use any other ability.

Wouldn't the fix to this be simple then, make it so that there is another ability or multiple abilities (with cd's preferably) that are stronger than poh. Obviously poh would need to be adjusted from its current state to accommodate this.

The prayer of refuge seems interesting. Not sure if I would like to heal everyone of just the people its on. The only reason I say this is because if it heals everyone in the area we will be balanced even more so around stacking, or being somewhat close to each other. For all you beta testers if you guys remember the original idea of SS when it was like PW:s but healed for 80% of the absorb or something like that, I think that could work.

I also like the idea of preshielding. Now how can we preshield, outside of SS? Is it realistic to assume that we could use an ability such as prayer of refuge and cast 6 pw:s (10man). I mean SS usually takes 12 sec to line up which many people consider a pain however I see that as a way to balance its strength. If SS can do 2.5mil healing with an 81k mana cost would it be fair to say that without SS we should be able to 2.5mil absorbs with roughly 81k mana while using other abilities, as bliz says they do not wish for SS to increase HPS directly.

If these assumptions are fair how can this be achieved?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
16700
I don't understand the aversion to dropping a new AE heal mid-expansion. Certainly other specs have seen some new flavour added with 5.2? Windwalker with Storm, Earth & Fire for example.

Edit: I also like the whole Prayer of Refuge idea, sounds interesting.
Edited by Amnesty on 1/21/2013 10:49 PM PST
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