Are Resto Druids Really *That* Bad?

90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Power Infusion makes the personal CD count identical - and amusingly if you can teach your raid to use it Lightwell is vastly superior to Lightspring. I made my guys do it in HDS, it's not impossible!

Also of course Method has to take a bunch of healing classes. Only if a class is truly terrible would you exclude them as sharding progression loot is going to hamper your raid much worse than bringing a slightly suboptimal class.

As for Rejuv vs PoH we will have to agree to disagree as going from one to the other I'm always fumbling for my nonexistent Druid PoH equivalent after WG is on CD.


Okay, the cooldown count becomes identical if you factor in PI. What about the other factors I listed? What's the Holy Priest equivalent of Symbiosis and Rebirth? Also, this isn't a comparison between Lightwell and Lightspring, but there's a reason no Holy Priest uses into the 'vastly superior' Lightwell.

Of course every guild has to bring a bunch of healing classes. But if a world first 25m guild brings two Resto Druids, you cannot really argue that there's a major issue with Druids, especially since such guilds tend to be more inclined to class stacking.

Also, your personal feelings about PoH and Rejuv doesn't change the basic mechancal nature of these heals. Can you explain to me why you think Rejuv doesn't serve its purpose as a raid heal well?
Edited by Ceddya on 1/26/2013 1:09 AM PST
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90 Draenei Priest
6975

Also, your personal feelings about PoH and Rejuv doesn't change the basic mechancal nature of these heals. Can you explain to me why you think Rejuv doesn't serve its purpose as a raid heal well?


Without the 2pc it's way too expensive to spam (although to be fair, this is the case for any raid heal that isn't Disc's PoH) in addition to being back-loaded; when you're AoE healing, chances are you're trying to burst heal (WG gets a pass on that at least for being front-loaded and just generally quicker).

Obviously in 5.2 it'll be much cheaper (and even moreso until people start losing their 2pc) and spirit levels will be higher, so it'll be a much more effective raid heal. I'm still a bit confused about the set bonus that makes it even more back-loaded, though.

I really don't think druids are that weak, btw. 5.2's changes should be enough to bring them to mid-pack if not higher (the mushrooms change is still mediocre on paper, albeit interesting).

Also whoever that guy is that thinks Sanc is useful must have been dropped on his head as a child.
Edited by Dysrhythmia on 1/26/2013 4:31 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Without the 2pc it's way too expensive to spam (although to be fair, this is the case for any raid heal that isn't Disc's PoH) in addition to being back-loaded; when you're AoE healing, chances are you're trying to burst heal (WG gets a pass on that at least for being front-loaded and just generally quicker).

Obviously in 5.2 it'll be much cheaper (and even moreso until people start losing their 2pc) and spirit levels will be higher, so it'll be a much more effective raid heal. I'm still a bit confused about the set bonus that makes it even more back-loaded, though.


Druid sustainability isn't really that bad if you have the 2pc and they aren't the only healers that need proper mana management. The main advantage PoH has over Rejuv is the fact that it provides more front loaded burst healing, but this was never an issue that preveted Druids from doing well in Cata.

As I've mentioned earlier, the main issue with Resto Druids right now is Disc, especially since healing is ultimately a zero-sum game. I have seen Resto Druid parses on HMSs without a Disc, and they're doing extremely competitively. With huge nerfs to Disc come 5.2, Resto Druids will be back in a good place again. I just don't get what else Druids want though, they're already receiving a 10% throughput buff and a mana reduction to their Rejuv.
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5 Human Warlock
0
Without the 2pc it's way too expensive to spam (although to be fair, this is the case for any raid heal that isn't Disc's PoH) in addition to being back-loaded; when you're AoE healing, chances are you're trying to burst heal (WG gets a pass on that at least for being front-loaded and just generally quicker).

Obviously in 5.2 it'll be much cheaper (and even moreso until people start losing their 2pc) and spirit levels will be higher, so it'll be a much more effective raid heal. I'm still a bit confused about the set bonus that makes it even more back-loaded, though.


Druid sustainability isn't really that bad if you have the 2pc and they aren't the only healers that need proper mana management. The main advantage PoH has over Rejuv is the fact that it provides more front loaded burst healing, but this was never an issue that preveted Druids from doing well in Cata.

As I've mentioned earlier, the main issue with Resto Druids right now is Disc, especially since healing is ultimately a zero-sum game. I have seen Resto Druid parses on HMSs without a Disc, and they're doing extremely competitively. With huge nerfs to Disc come 5.2, Resto Druids will be back in a good place again. I just don't get what else Druids want though, they're already receiving a 10% throughput buff and a mana reduction to their Rejuv.


They want burst. They won't get it but that's what they want. Really, all Blizz has to do is make sure at least a few important encounters require lots of spreading and favor healers with high mobility and the druid QQs will subside.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
They want burst. They won't get it but that's what they want. Really, all Blizz has to do is make sure at least a few important encounters require lots of spreading and favor healers with high mobility and the druid QQs will subside.


But Druids have always been a HoT-based class. Why would anyone roll a Druid if they wanted high burst healing? Also, I don't understand this obsession with burst healing - the only thing that really matters if whether your healers have sufficient combined HPS to overcome the incoming damage before anyone dies. The thing is, even on fights with heavy burst damage like H-Empress, Resto Druids still saw healthy representation on the early kills, which kinda points to the fact that Druids do have the necessary tools to contribute to healing such bursts.

Also, wouldn't the changes to Wild Mushroom partially address the issue with burst healing when the raid is stacked? It'll probably require much more thought and planning than other spells, but it's not meant to be potent in every single situation, especially since Druids have always been strong at healing a spread raid.
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100 Night Elf Druid
13130
01/25/2013 09:54 PMPosted by Ceddya
Really? Resto Druids have similar throughput as Holy Priests in 25 mans, except that Druids bring much more utlity and better raid cooldowns. Both classes have throughput that are somewhat limited by mana, except that Druids are receiving a mana reduction cost to their main heal whilst also getting a 10% healing boost - two notable changes that will put you ahead of Holy Priests come 5.2.


This is just blatantly false. All the facts point to Druids being behind in 25-man Heroic raids. We aren't terribad, but we statistically have the worst throughput of all the healers in 25's right now. Druids are about 4% behind Shamans, 10% behind Holy Priests, Monks, and Paladins, and 25% behind Disc Priests.

01/25/2013 09:54 PMPosted by Ceddya
As far as raid healing goes, I would sooner take Rejuv over PoH. They both do roughly the same HPS, except that Rejuv does not have the same group only restrictions and range limitations that PoH does. The nature of Rejuv healing (single target HoT) also allows you to raid heal whilst targeting those that need the heal most, and the benefit of this kind of focused healing can never be discounted. Let's also not forget that your spot healing capabilities with Clearcasting/Regrowth far exceed that of a Holy Priest's.


If you would sooner take Rejuv over PoH then you have absolutely no idea what Druids are dealing with right now.

01/25/2013 09:54 PMPosted by Ceddya
The only reason you feel that Resto Druids do so badly now is that Rejuv and WG get sniped much more easily than PoH/CoH/PoM. This is extremely exacerbated by the ton of absorbs currently put out by Disc Priests, and with much less damage to heal up, Resto Druids are naturally going to overheal for more due to the very nature of HoTs. With Disc set to take a huge nerf to its absorbs and with the upcoming buffs to Restos, you Druids need to QQ less IMO, as you will be in a good place come 5.2.


You are assuming nerfing Disc is going to solve the problem. Many thought the same thing when they nerfed Monks. Nerfing Disc will benefit ALL healers, not just Druids. All healers should rise in throughput. That doesn't bring Druids up to the level of Monks, Holy Priests, or Paladins.

01/25/2013 09:54 PMPosted by Ceddya
Also, it's worth notjng that Method ran with two Resto Druids for most of their progression IIRC. They certainly wouldn't have brought those Druids if they were in such bad shape.


Last time I checked Method doesn't speak for the Druid healing community. As I said earlier we aren't so terribad you would exclude us from content, but we are behind.
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5 Human Warlock
0
01/26/2013 09:08 AMPosted by Ceddya
They want burst. They won't get it but that's what they want. Really, all Blizz has to do is make sure at least a few important encounters require lots of spreading and favor healers with high mobility and the druid QQs will subside.


But Druids have always been a HoT-based class. Why would anyone roll a Druid if they wanted high burst healing? Also, I don't understand this obsession with burst healing - the only thing that really matters if whether your healers have sufficient combined HPS to overcome the incoming damage before anyone dies. The thing is, even on fights with heavy burst damage like H-Empress, Resto Druids still saw healthy representation on the early kills, which kinda points to the fact that Druids do have the necessary tools to contribute to healing such bursts.


Exactly.

01/26/2013 09:08 AMPosted by Ceddya
Also, wouldn't the changes to Wild Mushroom partially address the issue with burst healing when the raid is stacked? It'll probably require much more thought and planning than other spells, but it's not meant to be potent in every single situation, especially since Druids have always been strong at healing a spread raid.


Highly doubtful in general. Just too much pre-planning for such a smallish one-shot, highly constrained AoE heal. Better coverage, faster build up and increased output might encourage usage.
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90 Draenei Paladin
10900
Have been in a masochistic frame of mind recently and so was tempted to dust off my old healers.

However for ages now everyone has been telling me how bad Rdruids are this expansion. I honestly don't know much about this - but is it true?

What exactly is wrong with them?


A week ago I would have agreed that Rdruids were in a bad place, but then I finally met one who knew how to play his class, and I was pretty impressed by his numbers. If you play it well, I think any class can perform well. Its just whether or not you are willing to expend that extra effort.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
01/26/2013 09:16 AMPosted by Juvenate
This is just blatantly false. All the facts point to Druids being behind in 25-man Heroic raids. We aren't terribad, but we statistically have the worst throughput of all the healers in 25's right now. Druids are about 4% behind Shamans, 10% behind Holy Priests, Monks, and Paladins, and 25% behind Disc Priests.


Based on what? Raidbots has Druids ahead of Holy Priests on around half the fights right now. Also, you are receiving quite substantial buffs in 5.2 whilst Holy Priests aren't. It's not as though Blizzard is completely ignoring Druids.

01/26/2013 09:16 AMPosted by Juvenate
If you would sooner take Rejuv over PoH then you have absolutely no idea what Druids are dealing with right now.


I've healed on both and I'll sooner take Rejuv over PoH any day. It can be rather tiresome dealing with the mechanical limitations of PoH.

01/26/2013 09:16 AMPosted by Juvenate
You are assuming nerfing Disc is going to solve the problem. Many thought the same thing when they nerfed Monks. Nerfing Disc will benefit ALL healers, not just Druids. All healers should rise in throughput. That doesn't bring Druids up to the level of Monks, Holy Priests, or Paladins.


They nerfed Monks and buffed Disc at roughly the same time, there really wasn't any period whereby all the healers were roughly balanced. All healers are going to rise in throughput, except that Resto Druids are also receiving a throughput and efficiency buff, which means they're going to see a great increase.

Also, the very nature of HoTs mean that they are going to see a greater benefit from there being a reduction in absorbs and an increase in damage taken by the raid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the numbers for Rejuv.

01/26/2013 09:16 AMPosted by Juvenate
Last time I checked Method doesn't speak for the Druid healing community. As I said earlier we aren't so terribad you would exclude us from content, but we are behind.


Last I checked, Method were a guild highly focused on progression. The fact that they didn't deem it necessary to sit their Resto Druids, but in fact brought two to most early kills, speaks volumes.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Highly doubtful in general. Just too much pre-planning for such a smallish one-shot, highly constrained AoE heal. Better coverage, faster build up and increased output might encourage usage.


Wouldn't Wild Mushrooms be able to heal the raid for roughly 600k with the overhealing buff factored in? That seems pretty powerful for 3 GCDs. It'll certainly be situational, sure, but it looks like it'll be really potent if used well.
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100 Night Elf Druid
13130
01/26/2013 09:56 AMPosted by Ceddya
Based on what? Raidbots has Druids ahead of Holy Priests on around half the fights right now. Also, you are receiving quite substantial buffs in 5.2 whilst Holy Priests aren't. It's not as though Blizzard is completely ignoring Druids.


Negative.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/25H/all/14/60/default/#0000000000000000000000000000111111

The buffs are warranted. The only fights where Druids surpass Holy Priests are Tsulong and Lei Shi. All other encounters they are behind.

01/26/2013 09:56 AMPosted by Ceddya
I've healed on both and I'll sooner take Rejuv over PoH any day. It can be rather tiresome dealing with the mechanical limitations of PoH.


The group-only factor of PoH is a rather minor annoyance when you factor in its burst healing potential. As a former Priest back in Wrath I understand the annoyance, but in no way is Rejuv superior. I also didn't realize the 30 yard AoE range is such a hindrance. Holy Priests also have access to Renew and while Renew's HpM isn't nearly as good as Rejuv or PoH, I just highly doubt Priests would be jumping for joy if they lost PoH in favor of an equally buffed Renew. You would be in the minority here.

01/26/2013 09:56 AMPosted by Ceddya
They nerfed Monks and buffed Disc at roughly the same time, there really wasn't any period whereby all the healers were roughly balanced. All healers are going to rise in throughput, except that Resto Druids are also receiving a throughput and efficiency buff, which means they're going to see a great increase.


And the throughput buff is warranted considering our outdated toolbox. Wild Mushrooms were poorly implemented and have so far not filled the gap in our toolbox. If we had as many tools as a Holy Priest we wouldn't have this issue. It's a sad day when even Paladins have a better toolkit than Druids when just 2 expansions ago they were 1 button machines.

01/26/2013 09:56 AMPosted by Ceddya
Also, the very nature of HoTs mean that they are going to see a greater benefit from there being a reduction in absorbs and an increase in damage taken by the raid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the numbers for Rejuv.


The numbers of Rejuv were never the problem. It's the lack of spamming Rejuv and an outdated toolbox to compensate. Once Swiftmend and Wild Growth are on CD we have no other tools to use for raid healing except for Rejuv. And since Blizzard doesn't want us to go back to Wrath Rejuv spam, we have the issue of lacking another tool to help fill the gap. This 10% healing buff is merely a band-aid on a broken leg. The real issue is our toolkit.

01/26/2013 09:56 AMPosted by Ceddya
Last I checked, Method were a guild highly focused on progression. The fact that they didn't deem it necessary to sit their Resto Druids, but in fact brought two to most early kills, speaks volumes.


Like I said before Druids are viable. But we are behind and Blizzard has acknowledged that.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Negative.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/25H/all/14/60/default/#0000000000000000000000000000111111

The buffs are warranted. The only fights where Druids surpass Holy Priests are Tsulong and Lei Shi. All other encounters they are behind.


Why not just use the top 100 parses as comparison? It represents players who play their classes better.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/25H/100/14/60/default/#0000000000000000000000000000111111

01/26/2013 10:25 AMPosted by Juvenate
The group-only factor of PoH is a rather minor annoyance when you factor in its burst healing potential. As a former Priest back in Wrath I understand the annoyance, but in no way is Rejuv superior. I also didn't realize the 30 yard AoE range is such a hindrance. Holy Priests also have access to Renew and while Renew's HpM isn't nearly as good as Rejuv or PoH, I just highly doubt Priests would be jumping for joy if they lost PoH in favor of an equally buffed Renew. You would be in the minority here.


What exactly is your definition of burst healing? Would you consider 35k healing on 5 people in the same group burst healing? Does this burst healing save more lives than the better spot healing capabilities of Rejuv? Although, if you're basing it on HPCT, then Rejuv is going to come out ahead.

This is why I never liked the obsession with burst healing. The front loaded healing from direct raid heals may result in lower overhealing compared to HoTs, but this presents as a major issue only if there's insufficient damage going out. This is the exact issue with Rejuv right now (apart from sustainability, but the mana reduction in 5.2 should certain address that) - it's not that it is unable to deal with the healing requirements of fights, it's just that there's too little damage that's being healed too quickly for Rejuv to work effectively.

Also, I've never said that PoH was a bad spell, all I did was to list its mechanical limitations as compared to Rejuv.

01/26/2013 10:25 AMPosted by Juvenate
And the throughput buff is warranted considering our outdated toolbox. Wild Mushrooms were poorly implemented and have so far not filled the gap in our toolbox. If we had as many tools as a Holy Priest we wouldn't have this issue. It's a sad day when even Paladins have a better toolkit than Druids when just 2 expansions ago they were 1 button machines.


Right, and no one is arguing against these buffs. It just seems that Druids in general want more than what has been given, and I don't think further buffs are justified.

The bulk of Holy's spell casts involves PoH, CoH, PoM and our level 90 talents in a 25 man setting. Resto Druids get to use LB on the tank, Rejuv, WG, Swiftmend/Efflo and Clearcasted Regrowths. I would hardly claim that Holy Priests have a much wider toolkit.
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100 Night Elf Druid
13130
You don't want to use Top 100 parses since they tend to be heavily skewed. Those healers may have 3-4 healed encounters or may have had a certain composition that favors them. It's also an assumption that every healer can play at that level which is impossible. By using All Parses you take the good with the bad. While not perfect, All Parses is a much more clear representation of healer balance than using Top 100.

Raidbots in general is actually skewed a bit, but it's really all we have to look at when it comes to numbers data.
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100 Draenei Priest
14570
Yes, Resto Druids are really that bad. At least from my "hardcore/high-end" 25s perspective as a six-years healer.

As others in the thread have said, Druids shine when there is triage or at the very least constant damage for them to blanket. However, everything a Druid brings to a raid another healer can do better. With the implementation of Spirit Shell, Druids are just overheal for the most part and any other healing that needs to be patched up can be gotten by AE, most of which is just ground targeted, from *all* of the other classes. To further hit them while they are down, Druids don't bring any raid cooldowns, which have been paramount to this game since Ulduar. There is literally zero reason to have a Resto Druid in your raid and that is a failing according to Blizzard's game/class design goals.

Honestly, it seems like Mistweavers replaced Resto Druids more than anything else this expansion. They can blanket the raid when needed, are mobile, and at least bring some less-than-great cooldowns.

To make Resto Druids warrant a raid spot they really need a cooldown.
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90 Human Priest
11345
Even if you use the top 100 holy priests look a lot weaker than they actually are.

For example: this week I went holy on Vizier and Garalon (both heroic). I have never healed any heroic raid as a holy priest ever (only been playing priest since the end of Cata). I ranked 14th on Vizier while we were 3 healing, and 11th on Garalon (2 healing). I have no idea what the optimal abilities to use in terms of hps / hpm / burst healing (other than hymn) are and just sat in sanctuary the whole time using CoH on cooldown, keeping mending up, and using divine star / cascade; filling in with PoH when necessary. Imagine how much healing I could do if I actually knew how to play the spec properly - and yet I somehow beat almost every other holy priest? Of course my gear is very good, but most competent priests in good gear obviously aren't playing as holy or me mashing 4 buttons would not have ranked so highly.

TLDR: Ghostcrawler is 100% correct here.
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5 Human Warlock
0
01/26/2013 10:00 AMPosted by Ceddya
Highly doubtful in general. Just too much pre-planning for such a smallish one-shot, highly constrained AoE heal. Better coverage, faster build up and increased output might encourage usage.


Wouldn't Wild Mushrooms be able to heal the raid for roughly 600k with the overhealing buff factored in? That seems pretty powerful for 3 GCDs. It'll certainly be situational, sure, but it looks like it'll be really potent if used well.


It's a bit too situational and too restrictive in effect. Just not a good design. There are a lot of fights where gathering in a general area is desirable but not necessarily in a precise and predetermined location. They could make it a lot more useful by substantially widening the area of effect so it could be useful in perhaps several fights rather than just a few. The concern about it becoming part of our "rotation" is already a non-issue because of the extraordinarily long time it takes to build a decent charge.
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100 Troll Druid
19225
01/26/2013 01:43 PMPosted by Merise


Wouldn't Wild Mushrooms be able to heal the raid for roughly 600k with the overhealing buff factored in? That seems pretty powerful for 3 GCDs. It'll certainly be situational, sure, but it looks like it'll be really potent if used well.


It's a bit too situational and too restrictive in effect. Just not a good design. There are a lot of fights where gathering in a general area is desirable but not necessarily in a precise and predetermined location. They could make it a lot more useful by substantially widening the area of effect so it could be useful in perhaps several fights rather than just a few. The concern about it becoming part of our "rotation" is already a non-issue because of the extraordinarily long time it takes to build a decent charge.


I myself am not bothered by the functionality of mushrooms. If the current PTR version of it went live, I could see myself using it on 10 fights, easily. That's all I can really ask for.
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When heroic encounters just opened up personally I was pretty frustrated with resto druids but would I say we are really bad right now from a PVE perspective? Now that I have had 4 piece for quite a while and all of the content is on farm (I raid 25 man heroic) I can reflect on how I saw this tier.

MSV was frustrating, no 2 pc, no 4pc, fights needed to be underhealed resulting in me having to sit 2 encounters simply because other healing classes at the time were better. After they nerfed ring of frost etc for heroic Will of the Emperor resto druids as well as other druids were proven to be good to bring due to Symbiosis, I would symbiosis a hunter to get Deterrence and soak sparks, boomkins would symbiosis a rogue to get cloak to also soak sparks etc etc. but clearly this happened weeks after MSV had already been on farm.

HoF was not quite as frustrating simply due to the fact that fights did not need to be underhealed and tier pieces were finally in reach. As soon as I got my 4pc~ man it felt like it was Christmas and my birthday at the same time, personally I think soul of the forest with the 4pc set and the 5730 haste breakpoint were a huge buff for me and my numbers were finally competitive (and by competitive I mean not dead last).

Terrace was a pretty good instance for me as a Resto druid, Lei Shi favored Shamans and Resto druids due to the mobility during Get Away, Tsulong honestly is easily a good fight for druids and even heroic elite protectors is an excellent fight for resto druids.

What it all came down to is the final boss of the tier where resto druids were said to be very strong due to tranquility being a smart heal (healing 5 targets). So if you got huddle in terror during phase 2 on Sha of Fear and a druid popped tranq it would heal exactly those 5 people which made druids a desirable healer to bring.

Overall I would say resto druids are competitive as in not bad enough to not be brought to progression fights unless you raid in a top tier guild and even then for me personally it only happened in MSV. We were definitely behind during progression but as gear came in and tier sets aligned we started becoming more competitive. Disc priests may have had a little bit to do with why we were not optimal for progression but even before Blizzard buffed disc through the roof signs showed that resto druids were behind, disc just made that gap larger. Rejoice tho fellow resto druids, 5.2 looks exciting.

I for one am looking forward to 5.2, the SotF buff is quite amazing, in my current gear I easily reach the 107.25% haste breakpoint for the 15th tick of WG so that is something I am so looking forward to. That coupled with mushrooms should give us plenty of burst.

I have only done some 10 man testing so far and out of the 5 fights I have tested, two really allowed some mushroom usage where people would not be on the opposite side of the room just seconds later. When I actually got to use fully charged mushrooms on the raid, man~ they were strong so I foresee mushrooms being a stronger situational raid CD in 10 mans and still only mediocre in 25 man. Mediocre does not mean bad, mushrooms should no longer be a spell you don't want to use.
Edited by Botty on 1/26/2013 2:49 PM PST
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100 Tauren Druid
10365
In my guild I almost always outheal the other healers on my resto druid, and not because they aren't good. They all couldn't believe that I am getting a buff next patch.

A large part of the problem for many resto druids is that they set themselves up for failure. You see many Resto druids on here with as little as 6k spirit, reforging it off their gear as if this was still the end of Cataclysm. Once they've got themselves to the point where they are so mana starved that they are afraid to actually cast spells, you see the associated bad advice begin to roll in. I see many throwing around the suggestion that you shouldn't rejuv a target until they already have a significant health deficit, as if the fact that a HoT is the absolute worst heal for that situation is no longer immediately obvious. And then they wonder why their HoTs get sniped?

Resto Druids are the best healers when we (surprise, surprise) focus on what we are good at; being able to lay a Blitzkrieg of HoTs down on the raid. No healer aside from maybe a disc priest can snipe a HoT that is already ticking on a target before they take damage. Our AoE throughput is actually quite amazing once you have rejuvs ticking on the people who need it.


Spirit is subjective you only need enough to heal the encounter i'm currently at 5k spirit and i don't have mana problems, but i only raid 10 man.
Edited by Lìfendeath on 1/26/2013 5:48 PM PST
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