The 25-man incentive is announced

90 Human Warrior
16635
01/24/2013 12:59 PMPosted by Tyrnyx
And honestly the idea that it would be better for the "health" of the game to remove the only raid scene that is growing for the benefit of the fastest dying raid scene is ridiculous.


Your language betrays you. Sub is right on saying you are throwing 25 man under the bus. Yes, 10 man is expanding and 25 man is dying but you HAVE to look at why. 25 man is dying and 10 man is rising because of the decisions blizzard made that directly affected each, namely combining raid lockouts. I'm convinced that more than any ilvl difference is what is killing 25 mans.

Right now we have to choose 1 or the other. A choice is forced upon us. So the natural inclination is the path of least resistance. If blizzard had not forced this choice on us and left 10/25 lockouts separate we would still have plenty of 25 man guilds that could succeed because they could fill in slots and be successful having people who ran 10 earlier in the week and 25's later.

As for current 10 vs 25, look at my guild. We have 2 10 man teams that each run 2 days a week. I run them both. I would much rather have 1 team that runs 3 days than 2 teams that each run 2. A 25 man is the best way to do this and keep our rostered raiders happy. In fact before this announcement I was looking into whether we could transition into a 25 man guild w/out destroying our guild. If it wasn't going to work, I wouldn't do it. But now, with just a little incentive, Im just a little more optimistic.

Again, blizzard sets the rules for how 10 and 25 will interact. They can change and be fluid. They have changed. Its ridiculous to insist that change can't work because the current rules cause X effect. Blizzard is saying and sub and I are reinforcing that X effect will also change w/ the change in rules. Will it be enough, too little or too much? That has yet to be seen.
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90 Worgen Druid
16615
You can redefine as many things as you want, "success" "health" "ease", and that will not change the fact that every tier there are more and more 10s raiding in the progression scene. Your answer to the increasing strength of the 10m progression scene is now that it is "easier" when we both know full and well that the only "easier" part of it is the same logistics problems that face any 10v25 divide which are the same logistics problems that make 25 casual a dying breed (since casual assumes less playtime and 25 requires more).

And please, explain how 10 heroic is their least successful experiment when it is the only raid subgroup that continues to expand? Please explain how it is less successful than 25 casual in this point in time for the game.

I am surprised that someone as smart as you is so blinded to the idea that 10s have the exact same MMO grasp of friendship. Your argument that people need investment but you do not seem to realize that people can be invested in 10s. Personal experiences are personal experiences, yours was bad, mine is great, and if you look at the numbers, more people are staying in 10s or moving to 10s. To think that all of those people are doing it for the ease instead of doing it because they want to raid with friends is silly.

You mention that we can't act like Asia is a completely different market, but it is. In US/EU the game is paid for by monthly subs. It is not really comparable to say that a system that works for hourly pay rate is going to fix a system that runs on monthly subs.

Also, lets stop acting like the sub loss in Cata was something that be summed up by "dailies" and "10s" when Cata is the xpac that has existed during one of the US's largest unemployment periods and is marked by some of Blizz's worst examples of raid content and tuning.
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90 Human Warrior
16635
Tyrnyx, you are still ignoring why 10's are successful over 25's. Again, 10's are success now because of rules changes blizzard made. And you do have to accept that blizzard may change rules again. Rather than trying to apply the current model to the new rules and claiming the new rules won't work you have to apply whatever new model gets ushered in with the new rules then decide if it is or isn't working.

Yes, 10's are growing, 25's are dying right now. With the current set of rules. But when you change the rules of how 10's and 25's interact the dynamic of which is growing and which is dying may change.

If you prefer the current, at least have the decency to frame your debate in terms of, "I like the current system and don't think it needs changed." Its rather ill-conceived to try to pass off to us that the rules changes proposed should be considered only in terms of the current state of the game.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10055
01/23/2013 12:26 PMPosted by Subrosian
Well... the question is really out there for people who 10-man raid. How many of you will go 25 for a higher chance at Thunderforged gear? Did any of you see that and go "maybe I should raid 25?"


Progression on my server will more than likely still only happen with 10m. However, after about four-five months, when most of the raiding population* has seen the instance to a full clear (and some heroics), I can see us POSSIBLY banding a couple of raid teams together and doing a few 25m farm runs for the gear. I have a couple of guilds in mind that I could possibly partner with, and we'd just do it with our best folks, who don't need a lot of managing, and carry a few extra to fill out the last few spots.

So yeah, incentive at the end of a tier to do some farming as 25s, but no incentive at all for progression 25m on my server.

* My guess is that there are probably no more than 200 people actually raiding alliance side on my server. Now, most raiders I raid with have at least one other, sometimes 2 or 3, even 4 or 5 raiding alts (more as time goes on), and we frequently join each other's guilds to be in different raid teams and help out. So, if you just count raiding toons you may have a different impression of how many raiders there are.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10055

LOCKOUTS:
LFR
10 Normal
25 Normal / Heroic


Now this, this could work.
See, right now it's too high a risk for me to try 25s, and far too high an organizational reach from where I am personally and where my guild and server are now.
However, if we could have a separate lockout for 25, I would try out 25s and probably get used to them. I don't want to have to blow my whole raid week by trying 25, getting stuck on the first boss or two, and having everything blow up. Then everyone crawls back to their own guild, their own usual raid setup (10s), unhappy because we tried and it just didn't work, so never going there again. There's no incentive to try again unless there is a separate lockout for 25s, and something for the progression that's really more challenging.

We really need a separate lockout for 10s/25s, and this solves the separate achievement for 25s, because if you saw a heroic kill, you would know it was 25. Otherwise, I still think the minimum that Blizzard should implement is a separate 10s and 25s achievement list.
Right now, Paragon is number one in the world for this tier. Their raid size is irrelevant to their achievement.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
13815
Tyrnyx, you are still ignoring why 10's are successful over 25's. Again, 10's are success now because of rules changes blizzard made. And you do have to accept that blizzard may change rules again. Rather than trying to apply the current model to the new rules and claiming the new rules won't work you have to apply whatever new model gets ushered in with the new rules then decide if it is or isn't working.

Yes, 10's are growing, 25's are dying right now. With the current set of rules. But when you change the rules of how 10's and 25's interact the dynamic of which is growing and which is dying may change.


The main drop in 25's occured over the course of ICC. Let's look at US numbers if 25 man normal mode guild kills from wow-progress:

ToC - 23102
Saurfang - 26184
Putricide - 11086
Blood Queen - 7540
Sindragosa - 5961
Lich King - 4000

There is a huge decline, all within the era of split loot. Continuing:

Nef - 1715
Cho'Gall - 1677
Al-Akir - 625
Ragnaros - 1516
Deathwing - 1296

So yes, going from 4,000 to 1,715 guilds when they introduced common loot is a big deal, but some dropoff is natural after the release of an expansion. Still though, it was nowhere near as steep as the decline in terms of percentage or absolute numbers as during ICC, in the era before split lockouts.

Plus, 10's are not growing, they held steady from LK to DW, and took a plummet with this expansion.

Here is an alternative hypothesis - as the game matures, Blizzard is having to make more complex and mechanics-driven encounters. Increased complexity leads to increased difficulty, and puts more pressure on 25's than 10's. This explains the dropoff from 26K guilds killing Saurfang to 4K guilds killing LK.

What if Blizzard, instead of attempting to balance 25/10, simply made 25 normal easier than 10 for the same loot? Maybe not LFR-easy, but easy enough to PuG and have reasonable expectation of progress. In Wrath, everything in 25 but Ulduar was regularly pugged. In Cata, almost nothing was pugged. I think this is because of the difficultly of the content, not because of the existence (or lack threof) of 25 man guilds.

Easier 25s would push a lot of more casual 10 guilds back into 25s, where the natural forces that cause guilds to improve over time would kick back in. The increased complexity (to keep fights from feeling recycled) would be offset by decreased difficulty, allowing more guilds to find that 25 critical mass
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90 Worgen Druid
16615
In all of these threads I want to point out how often people bring up how people go to 10s because they don't want to deal with the headache of leading a 25. And yet then they go on to describe how 25s are so vitally important and how 10s should be removed as legitimate content so that 25s can be revived.

This is a video game and people are making arguments for content that is admittedly more work and less fun for many people.

I have been raiding since Vanilla and running guilds since BC. I have run 10s and 25s. I know the difference in work required. I understand that for many people raiding feels more epic in a larger environment. But for most people that epic feeling is not worth the work. The idea of incentivizing 25s by making them the only available raid content is built on the premise of forcing people back into content that many have chosen to not bother with.

Khan, you want me to frame by debate with decency? I quit the game because leading 25s is a hassle that is not worth it to me in a video game. I came back, with many people, to raid 10s so that I could progress my character in a meaningful way without having to deal with the excess annoyance of having to herd cats. I am not going back into 25s. I am not the only player that feels that way.

I am sorry that your preferred content is dying out because of a lack of people that want to bother with the headache it causes. But I think it is silly to pretend that it is for the good of the game, or anything other than the preference of 25man raiders who feel their content is superior and deserves to exist at the expense of 10s.

You can pretend that 10s will care if you guys get actual admin bonuses to make the admin side easier. I have said it before, I see no issue in giving 25s any number of admin things. But asking for higher loot and more access to loot in a way that will obviously destroy 10 progression is blatantly selfish and implies that you believe that the only way to restore 25s is to remove the choice of doing 10s, which is very literally forcing your raid preference on everyone.
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90 Worgen Druid
16615
I think it is pretty hysterical that you now consider 10man raiding easier on both raiders and admin when several months ago you were such a fighter for how 10man fights are just as challenging when you were in a 10m raiding guild. Honestly I am not sure you could be more obviously biased towards whatever you happen to be raiding at the moment.

No one is asking for 25 heroic to be removed. You are too caught up in some imaginary argument with me that is not happening.

I have said over and over again that there are plenty of changes that can benefit 25 casual raiding that will have no excessive negative effects on 10man raiding, and yet those continue to be ignored so that you can keep pushing for the idea that 10s need to be removed or made exclusively for normals and casual.

You continue to redefine my subset of players so that it can be a super small group (now I only count for the 10 progression raiders on the world front?), but we all know well and full that there are more 10man progression raiders currently than 25 casual players.

My entire point in this, which has been largely ignored so you can talk about all kinds of hypotheticals and hyperboles and flat out biased assumptions, is that it feels like 25 casual has the inherent issue of being 2 competing things. They are 25s, which require work, and casual, which do not want to commit excessive time making a game into work. Giving them more loot is not going to do anything to do fact unless you give them enough loot to make players feel forced into 25 casual if they want loot, and doing that would be the death of 10 heroic. So if the option of loot will only really work by killing 10 heroic then how is that going to ever work as an option.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10055
What's more interesting to me at this point is the number of people I have asked about doing 25m on my server, including folks who have raided since Vanilla, and so far none of them have been in favor of doing 25s at all. In fact, the number of times I have heard "I would quit first, " or "never again" was surprising to me.
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90 Human Warrior
16635
01/24/2013 10:29 PMPosted by Moarbier
What's more interesting to me at this point is the number of people I have asked about doing 25m on my server, including folks who have raided since Vanilla, and so far none of them have been in favor of doing 25s at all. In fact, the number of times I have heard "I would quit first, " or "never again" was surprising to me.


I'm actually finding just the opposite. My guild seems pretty excited to try out msv25 on monday. And the following week I have 2 10 man guilds offering up their raiders for a monday night 25 man msv again.

Perhaps part of it is the current format. Right now my guild and the other 2 are in HoF. This will allow them to run HoF both nights and lose no time on msv. Then monday they can have a fun run in msv and still get their valor and have a shot at some of those possible upgrades that are left.

If we don't have multiple raids in a tier I suspect this isn't an option. Which again points towards the success of failure of 25mans depends wholly on how blizzard presents them to us.
Edited by Khahan on 1/25/2013 6:20 AM PST
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90 Human Warrior
16635
The main drop in 25's occured over the course of ICC. Let's look at US numbers if 25 man normal mode guild kills from wow-progress:

ToC - 23102
Saurfang - 26184
Putricide - 11086
Blood Queen - 7540
Sindragosa - 5961
Lich King - 4000


You are taking progression and trying to claim its participation. They are not the same thing. Your claim is that participation tailed off in Icc (yes, you are responding to my comment about participation. that is what we've been discussing) and using success to support it. Unfortunately not every guild that participated succeeded. Sure, 4000 guilds actually killed LK. But that have absolutely 0 bearing on the number of guilds who were running icc25 man every week.

Your progression numbers mean squat for a participation discussion. There is no evidence that 25 man died off during ICC.

The only time I can think of when participation died off during icc25 man vs 10 man is after they announced shared lockouts were coming. But again, that is player reaction to blizzard's approach. Which further proves the point I've been making - 25's are NOT dead due to so-called-player choice. They are dead right now due to blizzard action. And you cannot use the current state of the game to extrapolate what will happen when blizzard's actions change. Which is what Tyrnyx has seemingly been arguing - since they are dead now they cannot be revived.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
13815
You are taking progression and trying to claim its participation. They are not the same thing. Your claim is that participation tailed off in Icc (yes, you are responding to my comment about participation. that is what we've been discussing) and using success to support it. Unfortunately not every guild that participated succeeded. Sure, 4000 guilds actually killed LK. But that have absolutely 0 bearing on the number of guilds who were running icc25 man every week.

Your progression numbers mean squat for a participation discussion. There is no evidence that 25 man died off during ICC.


Of course progression is participation - this is Blizzard's message every time they decide they decide to nerf content - to paraphrase, "we nerf content when people get stuck because when they get stuck they walk away". Now it isn't a perfect tool - but how many 25 man guilds were wiping on Putricide for 10 months until Cata? Not that many.

Here is another data point - look at Halion, released 6 months after ICC. This should give a decent approximation of the number of active 25 man guilds. There were 4285 US Halion kills from July to Cata. By comparison, there were 26,657 US Marrowgar kills - and it took only 8 days to surpass the total number of Halion kills.

So, I'm pretty comfortable saying the majority of 25 dropoff occurred during ICC, not before Cata
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90 Worgen Druid
16615
I believe I have already posted that there would be issue to 10 progression to allow raids to work on a gear lockout similar to LFR rather than a size lockout. Allowing players to test 25s in the same week as 10s but preventing people from gaining loot from both. But you continue to ignore anything that does not ask for more loot for 25m raiders.

Now Sub is even going back to asking for split lockouts for without a loot restriction even though he knows good and well that the vast majority of hardcore 25s and a good number of semi hardcore 25s have repeatedly asked for this not to be the case.

Honestly it seems like you are now more concerned with finding a system to remove 10H than you are with finding a system to restore 25 casual and strengthen 25 heroic. Creating a forced choice is not going to be healthy for the game because it will increase player burnout. Removing options, especially when the option you want to remove is so popular, is not going to be healthy for the game.

How about instead of becoming so defensive and passive aggressive you guys actually start discussing non loot options, because whenever I check the posts in D&R and General, I keep seeing posts from tons of 25 raiders agreeing that loot is not the solution.

It was already mentioned in this thread that they could make 10 normal significantly easier than 25 normal so that 25 normal could be more puggable. Why won't we discuss any option other than the killing of 10H? Is it because you care more about removing a raid format that you do not even do?
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