The 25-man incentive is announced

90 Night Elf Death Knight
02/01/2013 02:40 PMPosted by Subrosian
You really shouldn't post about raid difficulty if you haven't raided both significantly in Heroic modes... it just makes the conversation one-sided, because I have information and experience you can't relate to - calling it "drivel" simply illustrates your inability to understand the conversation, not your correctness.

There are two facets to difficulty, objective difficulty and subjective difficulty -- you're utilizing the latter for all of your arguments which is akin to taking the word of a dyslexic who talks about the difficulty of reading or a paraplegic who talks about the difficulty of walking.

So calling it "drivel" is exactly what it is, uncouth and unwarranted subjective opinion without any objective fact to be found.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
02/01/2013 02:46 PMPosted by Subrosian
25s are tuned significantly tighter than 10s. The 10-man tuning is built with the knowledge that your group will have a variation in skill level.

You should post some math on this or else it shall be considered fanciful, at best.

Because players who are driven to play the game 70+ hours a week want to tackle the hardest possible content they can - and that content is in 25. The top world guilds do not consider 10-man raiding to be real raiding - it's that simple. They word it more politely in public, obviously, as they're sponsored, but behind closed doors... they say it a little more bluntly.

That doesn't mean it isn't "real raiding".

The folks who live on the Upper Eastside of Manhattan probably don't consider you to be valuable to society, guess that means it is true?

It's an obvious choice for the other 99.9% of players though - and for sponsored guilds who are scared (e.g. Paragon) that they won't cut it in the 25 worlds race. You really have no idea how brutal that race has become... a guild that would have taken World 1st a couple of years ago would struggle to break top 30 worlds now... just the change in hours requirements, and the move to continuous farm / prog schedule.

The other 99.99% being casuals, yes? The kind who don't participate in the circumvention of loot progression like the top guilds, yes?

So therefore they are not getting more loot by being in 10-mans, in fact, they're getting less. That's math, what's your opinion on that?
Edited by Fyersing on 2/1/2013 3:00 PM PST
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90 Human Warrior
Well Dark Tide hosted its second weekly MSV 25 man run the other night. I logged on and within 3 mins had whispers from 5 different people who I did not know and had not been with us the week before about wanting to join. I have not advertised this run, either.

We ended up with 16 or 17 guildies in the raid. 1 online but had to go afk and missed the invite time frame (I'm very strict about it, no exceptions, 7:45 server guild invites start. 8pm server, opens to pugs and if we fill up, we fill up). 3-4 regulars who could not make it monday night for various reasons.

On top of the pst's I got from random people we had 3 guilds offer up blocks of people. Obviously we could not take them all.

The run was fairly smooth, a few hiccups along the way but nothing that demoralized the group. We got to elegon and managed 1 pull. Hit the enrage timer. Honestly I was pretty happy with that. We had a handful of people who had never seen elegon outside of lfr. I was expecting to wipe to mechanics.

I would not say 25 man is harder than 10 man in MSV. They are about equal but present different challenges. The berserk timers for the bosses seems to consistently be an issue for 25 mans whereas at this stage they are not even a thought in the back of the mind for 10s. But 25 mans are more forgiving to a few people dying.

Stone dogs overall skill-wise is about equal. I tank in both 10 and 25. Tanking duties are lightened up in 25 but the dps requirements are tougher. Healing appears to be about the same from watching my wife heal it.

Feng - phase 1 is roughly the same skill-wise for everybody. Phase 2 the dps timing is off from what I'm used to in 10 man. I think we can burn this phase w/ only 2 draw flames. And phase 3 is just a different positioning we use. Overall its not any more or less difficult.

Gara'jal is actually a smidge harder on 25 man. The totems spawn faster and t he totem groups need to be more on their toes.

Spirit kings - so far does seem harder on 25 man. We are constantly up against the enrage timer. I think the inherent lag many people experience in 25 mans over 10's plays a role here though. The mechanics are identical. Its just that if you lag out or have a latency problem its exacerbated in 25 mans. There is also more chance for a mistake in 25 man on this like having a slow or stun effect applied during maddening shout. With a bit bigger damage output from the boss this can be deadly. Its not that its harder but with 25 people there is more chance for a derp moment. We downed him but it took a few attempts and hit the enrage timer a few times before successfully killing him (when we hit the enrage timer but he was running scared so his enrage was meaningless). hah, I actually killed myself on this fight as dps. I hadn't realized he was stacking his damage reflection and hit a 300k crit execute on him at 88% reflect.

Elegon I think will be about the same in skill level, but more forgiving. Once we get the details of dps distribution worked out (how many are on protectors vs boss, who to put on what pillar etc) the enrage timer won't be an issue at all. But in 25 man if somebody dies (even if 2 or 3 people die) there are redundant dps and 2 tanks who can help pick up the slack. On 10 man, if somebody dies, its often a wipe if there are still draw power phases left.

All in all, I think its a fallacy to say 10 or 25 man is harder as a raider or a raid team so far in MSV. And the organization during raid time is really minimal in difference between 10 and 25 for a prepared raid team. But getting those 25 people to commit is still the biggest obstacle.
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