Let us see how many bosses are dead already..

85 Troll Hunter
7360
Solution to Que times:

Que with a healer.

Don't have a healer? Go out and make a new friend.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
18740
01/25/2013 11:22 AMPosted by Bashiok
Oh boy 45 valor. For wasting probably an hour of our time? Not including the time wasted for the second queue and raid.


I generally find I'm in a 2/3 partial, and when I re-queue to pick up those first two bosses it does not take an hour to down the final boss. Is it taking you an hour to kill a boss?

45 valor for about 15 minutes more of my time is pretty efficient.


Yeah, it's kind of a shame that the best, most time-efficient ways of getting valor are also the easiest and least challenging.
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90 Tauren Druid
12940


I generally find I'm in a 2/3 partial, and when I re-queue to pick up those first two bosses it does not take an hour to down the final boss. Is it taking you an hour to kill a boss?

45 valor for about 15 minutes more of my time is pretty efficient.


Funny you say 15 mins que when I have been stuck in 1 hour and 26 min ques like this week for last raid then get thrown into last boss and have to reque again and wait on avg another hour or so to get the first bosses...you really screwing over DPS with this set up over and over...I get on my healer and boom 1 min que over and over but not this hunter...again more wasted time for dps....


Just imagine those queues one 5.2 hits and they force people to do 5.0 LFR's to be able to queue for the next raid. 5.0 queues will be like 2 hours since those of us already at higher gear levels will never queue for those LFR's again. :p
Edited by Fehnrisa on 1/25/2013 2:01 PM PST
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19 Tauren Druid
10440
I think it's time to take all the gear out of LFR entirely. Let people get 50 VP per boss, but no loot. Those who want to see the content will get to see the content, and anyone else who wants to gear up will have to really raid.
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90 Goblin Death Knight
10080
01/25/2013 12:55 PMPosted by Bashiok
Absolutely. We don't want for you to run the same instance multiple times either. We'd be happy to entertain ideas for how we can put a group of 25 strangers together, who all have different goals, expectations, and time constraints, and see each of them remain until the end regardless of anything else that happens in the raid or in their life (drops, wipes, wife came home, cat peed on foot, etc.).


With the way it is now, you essentially have situations where people frequently have to queue up twice (or occasionally more) in order to clear every boss in LFR. Not only is this unfair to those who want to do 1 full run instead of multiple runs, it further compounds the problem of people leaving raids early because many of those who do the partial runs first aren't inclined to stick around after they finally get a fresh run and down whatever bosses they missed from the partial runs previously. In short, not only do you have people who leave because they only want stuff from one boss, you also have people who did partial runs earlier leaving because they already killed the latter bosses in an earlier run.

Anyways, you wanted to entertain ideas, so here's a decent one: Instead of putting a time burden on the people who want to do full runs (ie, making them do a partial run to "get priority" for a full run next time), why don't you do what some PUG raids do now and hold all loot until the very end of the raid. It would work something like this:

1) You have to be present when the boss was killed to be eligible for a chance at that bosses loot.
2) When the boss is killed, players don't get to see what loot they may have won (if any).
3) When the last boss dies, players then get to see what loot they got for any bosses they took part in killing, and are awarded their loot at that time along with the opportunity to use charms of good fortune.
4) If a player leaves the raid at any time (intentional or not), they forfeit any chance at loot for that particular boss in the week.

If you do it this way, people who only want loot from one boss are "encouraged" to do the raid in its entirety instead of leaving early and requiring other people to sacrifice their time. Essentially, this would leave less "in progress" raids needing to be filled.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who hate this idea, but I think it's far more fair to tell people who only want loot from one boss that they need to put the time and commitment in to do a raid in its entirety if they want any loot at all vs. telling people that they need to queue multiple times for the same raid just to cover every boss.

Is it a perfect solution? No, but nothing out there ever is. You'll still have people who leave early because of real life, other commitments, bad raid groups, or even get disconnected through no fault of their own, meaning partial raids will still exist. However, there will be far fewer of them to worry about.
Edited by Sigrah on 1/25/2013 1:55 PM PST
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100 Draenei Mage
9120
Before patch, when we could see how many bosses were down, queue time was less than 25min.

Now we could not how many bosses were down, queue time is above 40 min.

Example:
killed all bosses except 1st boss.

Queued for 45min, joined, not the 1st boss.

Left and got 30 min debuff.

After 30 min, re-queue for 45 min again.

Joined, not the 1st boss.

Left and got 30 min debuff.

Repeat until got 1st boss.
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75 Human Hunter
9265
01/25/2013 01:06 PMPosted by Joynal
People still run mains through to VP cap
not mains that are fully geared - no one needs valor if they are fully geared
Edited by Jola on 1/25/2013 2:14 PM PST
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90 Tauren Hunter
12760
Example:
killed all bosses except 1st boss.

Queued for 45min, joined, not the 1st boss.

Left and got 30 min debuff.

After 30 min, re-queue for 45 min again.

Joined, not the 1st boss.

Left and got 30 min debuff.

Repeat until got 1st boss.


You understand, however legitimate the concern is (and I share it), the above example is very very highly unlikely, as you're placed into priority fresh after a partial clear. It CAN happen, but the odds are very miniscule.
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90 Human Death Knight
8875

Absolutely. We don't want for you to run the same instance multiple times either. We'd be happy to entertain ideas for how we can put a group of 25 strangers together, who all have different goals, expectations, and time constraints, and see each of them remain until the end regardless of anything else that happens in the raid or in their life (drops, wipes, wife came home, cat peed on foot, etc.).


Why not throw an option on the LFR UI that is simply a checkbox 'Wait for fresh raid'.

Seriously, people like me who have raid gear and only run LFR for valor would PREFER a partially cleared one. FREE VALOR!

And then everyone else who demands a fresh run, well they can choose to wait EVEN LONGER in the queue to try and get their fresh run.

The disconnect the platyers have with you is that you are trying to force EVERY group to be in LFR from start to finish. This is indeed not the goal. If your LFR group has 10 people leave midway, then YOUR queue should be the one that takes longer because you're all clearly doing something horribly, horribly wrong in the easiest content in game.
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100 Goblin Warlock
18050
01/25/2013 12:55 PMPosted by Bashiok
The point I was shooting for is this: if I choose to take part in PvE content via LFR I don't want to have to run multiple instances (of the same instance) just to see each and every boss, most importantly by sitting in at least two very long DPS queues.


Absolutely. We don't want for you to run the same instance multiple times either. We'd be happy to entertain ideas for how we can put a group of 25 strangers together, who all have different goals, expectations, and time constraints, and see each of them remain until the end regardless of anything else that happens in the raid or in their life (drops, wipes, wife came home, cat peed on foot, etc.).


Ok so how bout rather than penalizing innocent people who had nothing to do with the raid losing members, you penalize more harshly those who leave the raid early when they started a fresh raid for the first time that week. SOMEONE is leaving these raids and messing things up for everyone else initially. I'm not talking about the person who got pulled into a partial, completed it, requeues and gets a fresh and leaves at the boss they did already. I'm talking about run number 1 of the week that someone decided to leave early and started this whole mess up.
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75 Human Hunter
9265
01/25/2013 02:15 PMPosted by Chaingirl
If your LFR group has 10 people leave midway, then YOUR queue should be the one that takes longer
um, instance creation is finite - if all of the in-progress runs are taking up all the instance space, no fresh runs can be created, which is WHY in-progress runs GET queue priority, so space can be cleared to create fresh instances...

its like going to a basketball court and there is already a game in-progress when you get there - you have to wait for them to finish the game or help them finish the game in order to gain access to the basketball court for a new game...
Edited by Jola on 1/25/2013 2:21 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
12630
On a semi unrelated note, Bashiok touched on the fact that blizz wanted LFR to be a way to allow people to see the content. Sometimes I feel like if that were truly the case and that LFR was not really supposed to be an additional method of (effectively) gearing, then they would have had the loot chances lower and just had it drop the same ilvl as the normal raids.

But on topic, seeing how many bosses are down doesn't particularly help people with queue times so whats the point? probably in the long run it actually hurts the queue times because of people canceling their queues and then groups on the last boss languish there and perhaps have to disband entirely.
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90 Night Elf Druid
8200
01/25/2013 12:31 PMPosted by Bashiok
Well I appreciate the quote, at least. But, and don't take this the wrong way, think back to a time not-that-long-ago before LFR existed. How much raid content were you seeing then, how far had you progressed, and what was the time investment?

I saw most if not all of it with PuGs and a handful of hours a week. PuGs progressed slower than the guilds, though being a casual the progression path will be slower and comes with the territory. I felt a far higher level of accomplishment from doing PuG normal modes even if I didnt do a full clear than I do now doing LFR which feels so monotonous. Both are grinds and yet it did not feel grindy with PuG raiding or when I used to do progression raiding. I would do progression raiding again if I had the time and schedule to do such but real life over WoW.
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90 Troll Hunter
5920
If you mouse over the LFR icon on your mini-map you can see the roles filling up, letting you know that you're in a fresh run. If you queue for LFR and it pops without you being able to see the roles filling up, then you are being thrown into an active raid with dead bosses.

This may not ALWAYS be true, but It has always been true FOR ME.
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90 Undead Rogue
12615
If you mouse over the LFR icon on your mini-map you can see the roles filling up, letting you know that you're in a fresh run. If you queue for LFR and it pops without you being able to see the roles filling up, then you are being thrown into an active raid with dead bosses.

This may not ALWAYS be true, but It has always been true FOR ME.


While this may be accurate, I only need a sha touched wepon on one of my toons so I only need 1 boss from LFR, meaning I'm there for 1 boss. Imagine how happy I am when I join a raid with that boss already down.
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90 Undead Monk
17260
Please allow us to queue for bg's while we queue for LFR. Sometimes DPS queues range for up to an hour, and being able to slaughter stuff while I wait would be fantastic.
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90 Troll Hunter
5920
I think the discussion is based around the ability to choose how you enter an LFG raid. My point is that you still can choose. You just have to understand how the system works. It builds a group over the course of a few minutes, which you can clearly see it doing when you mouse over the lfr icon. Or it throws you into an already made group which you can clearly see because you were not able to see it building the group. Again, i'm talking about mousing over the LFR icon. This does require some staring at the screen while waiting, as opposed to going AFK and returning when you hear the pop.

The piece of gear you need as an individual is irrelevant to the discussion.
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01/25/2013 12:55 PMPosted by Bashiok
The point I was shooting for is this: if I choose to take part in PvE content via LFR I don't want to have to run multiple instances (of the same instance) just to see each and every boss, most importantly by sitting in at least two very long DPS queues.


Absolutely. We don't want for you to run the same instance multiple times either. We'd be happy to entertain ideas for how we can put a group of 25 strangers together, who all have different goals, expectations, and time constraints, and see each of them remain until the end regardless of anything else that happens in the raid or in their life (drops, wipes, wife came home, cat peed on foot, etc.).


You asked for ideas so here you go! If someone leaves LFR everything earned in that LFR disappears. Furthermore they serve a 2 week suspension where they cannot queue for LFR. Upon leaving a subsequent LFR within a given time period the person now has to serve a one month suspension. *being vote kicked does not count towards this*
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90 Troll Hunter
5920
Say you can see 0/2, 0/6, 0/17 when mousing over the LFR icon. Suddenly your queue pops. This is you being thrown into an already made group with dead bosses. You simply decline the invitation and re-queue.

Now say you are able to see 1/2, 2/6, 11/17 when mousing over the LFR icon. This is you in a group being built for a fresh run. When this queue pops, join and have fun :)
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