Let us see how many bosses are dead already..

90 Draenei Shaman
13805
01/25/2013 11:12 AMPosted by Stormelder
Maybe we don't want to come in on the tail end of a run especially if the gear we're in search of comes from a boss that's already dead. Or maybe we've killed the last boss already and need a run that will let us get the first two. There are any number of reasons but regardless, we shouldn't be penalized for 30 minutes for wanting a fresh run.

There were many times that I queued for LFR just to get valor (especially near the end of the content when all my gear was far superior to anything that LFR was dropping), and on those occasions I was very happy to zone into partial runs. That having been said, if you've already killed the last boss you'll be given priority for a fresh run. I have personally never been given a partial run after already having cleared a partial run. You can see the number of LFR kills I have for yourself. The situation you describe may exist, but in my experience it is rare (< 95% of the time). Just finish out the partial run, requeue, and pick up the bosses you missed on the first go round. From there you have the option to stick it out for extra rolls and/or valor or to just drop from the group. It's a win-win for everyone.
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90 Draenei Shaman
9760
01/25/2013 11:33 AMPosted by Bashiok
he was referring to the hour long queue - he had to queue TWICE for an hour each time to kill all bosses once instead of queue ONCE for an hour to kill all bosses once


Sure, and if we just let people pick and choose raids to join there could be 24 other people dropping group to wait in queue again. There are a few things you can do in the game all by yourself that don't involve other players, and we can try to make sure those really work as a single player experience. Raiding just can't be one of them.

And, taking a step back, LFR continues to offer an exceptional experience and reward for time invested value versus it not existing.

If he saw 2/3 bosses then what would he do? cancel the queue? Well then he has to wait again either way.


Oh, and that. :)


Except that you are wrong. It does not offer an exceptional experience and reward for time invested. Wait in 1 hour in Que, get a partial run, get NO gear, only 90 valor. Reque, wait an hour, kill one boss, get NO gear amd 45 valor.

No real reward, valor is only useful if you are grinding a bazillion dailies every day. The time invested for the reward not earned are NOT equal!

If it was so many peeps would not be complaining.

It is OK to say it is broken and improvements are being looked into. No one likes to wait in que twice at an hour each time to get no gear, see no gear being distributed and feeling like everything was a waste.
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90 Draenei Shaman
13805
01/25/2013 11:22 AMPosted by Coulomb
Is this really the case? I'm glad to hear it, if so, but this is the first I've heard about this.
From the December 6 entry for patch 4.3 hotfixes (found at http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/4023884 ):
Players who have killed the final boss in one of the wings of Dragon soul via Raid Finder will be more likely to enter fresh instances on subsequent Raid Finder instances that week. This should make it easier to kill earlier bosses that they might have missed.


This has been the case for more than a year.
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90 Orc Shaman
13505
The point I was shooting for is this: if I choose to take part in PvE content via LFR I don't want to have to run multiple instances (of the same instance) just to see each and every boss, most importantly by sitting in at least two very long DPS queues.


Absolutely. We don't want for you to run the same instance multiple times either. We'd be happy to entertain ideas for how we can put a group of 25 strangers together, who all have different goals, expectations, and time constraints, and see each of them remain until the end regardless of anything else that happens in the raid or in their life (drops, wipes, wife came home, cat peed on foot, etc.).


Bash, the way you do it is provide either a more significant benefit for a partial run, a rougher penaly for dropping, or both. Ideas for benefits: 200+gold reward, free charm rolls on remaining bosses, bonus charms upon competion, valor points that exceed the weekly limit. Ideas penalizing for not completing: loss of all rewards/items from previous bosses on that run, long cd 12hr to be able to use LFR and 1hr cd on LFD/BG's and accountwide. Personally i think the incentive way is better because ppl can force dc or get afk vtk to bypass. But the accountwide cd for all queues is reasonable, provided it's at least 1hr. This should be tracked and multiple infractions should enact significant queue cd, even exceding 24hrs imo.
Edited by Tectonicbomb on 1/25/2013 3:12 PM PST
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Hey Blizz here's a thought...let us see what we're siging up for BEFORE accepting an LFR invite.

Maybe we don't want to come in on the tail end of a run especially if the gear we're in search of comes from a boss that's already dead. Or maybe we've killed the last boss already and need a run that will let us get the first two. There are any number of reasons but regardless, we shouldn't be penalized for 30 minutes for wanting a fresh run.

We used to be able to see how many bosses were down already and we could make an informed decision about whether or not we wanted to join. Maybe there's been some discussion explaining why the change was made but, I'm sorry, it was a dumb idea that takes away player choice.

Please bring back the raid preview.


if they did this, no one would accept the que for 2/3 bosses down, and that group would be screwed.
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01/25/2013 03:10 PMPosted by Tectonicbomb
cat peed on foot, etc.).


LOLOLOL
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90 Draenei Shaman
13805
Except that you are wrong. It does not offer an exceptional experience and reward for time invested. Wait in 1 hour in Que, get a partial run, get NO gear, only 90 valor. Reque, wait an hour, kill one boss, get NO gear amd 45 valor.

Why are you counting the wait as time invested? I don't know about you, but while waiting for my queue to pop I'm doing dailies, checking auctions, and/or doing archaeology. A full LFR clear usually takes about 45 minutes. That means if you enter on the last boss the first go-round you invest 15 minutes and on the second go-round you have to option to invest 45 minutes or just the first 30 minutes for the bosses you missed. In other words, for 45 minutes you get the 90 valor you would have gotten for a fresh run anyways or you can spend an additional 15 minutes for a grand total of 135 valor points. How is that not a good deal? As for the "get NO gear" complaint, welcome to raiding. I've done spent 6 hours a week in normal raids for the past 3 weeks and have gotten NO gear from them on any of those weeks. LFR offers the raiding experience, and the RNG is an integral part of that.
Edited by Ronduwil on 1/25/2013 3:21 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
13805
01/25/2013 03:10 PMPosted by Tectonicbomb
Bash, the way you do it is provide either a more significant benefit for a partial run
You're already getting a significant benefit for a partial run. If you're already geared you're spending less time in the raid for the same VP reward. If you're not geared yet you can requeue to pick up the bosses you missed the first time and optionally finish out the dungeon for extra VP. Why do you want to be rewarded for being put into a situation that's already beneficial to you to begin with? Just because you don't recognize a good situation when it's handed to you doesn't change the fact that it's a good situation.
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100 Draenei Shaman
13325
I think the thing some people don't like is waiting a hour for an in progress group. Why doesn't the system just put the people who have just queued into the raid? Let's say that a group kills the 1st boss, a couple of people leave, the game then puts people that have just queued into the 1/3 complete group. You could even have an lfr option that asks if it's okay to put you in a group that's already going. People who check off that option get to be instantly put in a group if it comes up. There's people who run lfr for valor and people who run it for gear and people who run it for both and people who run it for other reasons. Why not give them a say on what they are queuing up for? People who just want valor will want to go into groups that have already downed bosses, why not let them and leave the people who want full clears to doing full clears? You could say that there might not be enough people who want to do partial runs to make implementing this worth it, well then the game isn't giving people enough incentive to do these runs. That implies that the reason some people stick around is because they have already spent 30 min - 1 hour invested into the queue.
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1 Human Mage
0
blizz is stupid

People leave the groups after the wait if it's on a boss they don't need

these people get a 30 minute queue debuff

THIS MAKES THE QUEUES LONGER FOR OTHER PEOPLE BECAUSE EVERYONE IS SITTING AROUND WITH A 30M DEBUFF BECAUSE YOU CAN'T LET THEM SEE WHAT BOSS IT'S ON

terrace queues weren't this bad before you did this

right as you added it the queues jumped up to 40 minutes+
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100 Gnome Warlock
15310
Queues don't get longer because of fewer people queueing (unless the number drops to fewer than 25 people every few minutes, which it almost certainly isn't.). Queues get longer because of changes in proportions of tanks, healers, and DPS queueing.

Please keep that in mind when blaming longer queue times on any particular change.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
6320
Oh boy 45 valor. For wasting probably an hour of our time? Not including the time wasted for the second queue and raid.

Anyone else remember when you could get 100 Valor by just doing a heroic? And you could do it 7 times a week whenever you wanted? Not having to resign to logging onto the game every day like a 2nd job?

Yeah those were the days...


Of course putting yourself into multiple "cherry picking" ques isn't wasting your time with no reward to show. No, not at all.
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29 Human Mage
0
When I get a queue and get in the raid to see they are not on the first boss I leave, exit the game and come back later, when I was able to see the number I stayed in the game and tried again while doing something else.

It's amazing how a simple number kept me in the game and now I just exit and try much later

All in all, clearly a good move doing away with it /sarcasm
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87 Draenei Paladin
11360
01/25/2013 12:55 PMPosted by Bashiok
The point I was shooting for is this: if I choose to take part in PvE content via LFR I don't want to have to run multiple instances (of the same instance) just to see each and every boss, most importantly by sitting in at least two very long DPS queues.


Absolutely. We don't want for you to run the same instance multiple times either. We'd be happy to entertain ideas for how we can put a group of 25 strangers together, who all have different goals, expectations, and time constraints, and see each of them remain until the end regardless of anything else that happens in the raid or in their life (drops, wipes, wife came home, cat peed on foot, etc.).


Here's some thoughts:

If you are put in a partial run and stay to finish you get double the VP you would have earned. So 90 becomes 180 and 45 becomes 90. However if you earned a deserter debuff for that instance that day, you do not get the added valor.

Don't like giving us more valor? How bout an achievement "Sticking With It!" Complete X amount of partial LFR runs Give a pet or a title "Good Guy"

Don't like that? How bout an extra roll on the gear from all bosses killed in that session?

Don't like that? How about rep items, Charm coins of appropriate tier, etc, etc.

Another way of looking at it. Example: I as a player have out geared LFR, but I still lack Wrathion sigils, I really don't care whether I run the 1st or second half of the raid because all the bosses drop the sigils. Maybe give an option to queue for multiple LFRS like LFD or the one big random T14 LFR button.

Iterate it even further. Queue for 1 boss at a time. I want this guy and that guy but I don't care about that guy, bam queue each one and go. Or hey there is one big queue of I don't give a murloc's poot lets go kill something. Putting you in where ever the system needs.

In any event, giving more control over the player's queuing may be better or worse, but if the system was more intelligent, like being able to track a player's weekly kills, then it would send someone to a 2/3 fight because the cat peed on his foot right before he could pull 3/3 earlier and he would be happy, like pressing resume on his remote, while a person who is 0/3 would be favored (do not read guaranteed) for a 0/3 group.
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90 Night Elf Priest
11835
I understand why people are upset about this but what are they supposed to do?

People leave raids... and the raid can't just continue on if they're missing 2 healers or 3 dps. So sometimes you gotta fill that spot.
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91 Human Mage
11025
01/25/2013 12:55 PMPosted by Bashiok
The point I was shooting for is this: if I choose to take part in PvE content via LFR I don't want to have to run multiple instances (of the same instance) just to see each and every boss, most importantly by sitting in at least two very long DPS queues.


Absolutely. We don't want for you to run the same instance multiple times either. We'd be happy to entertain ideas for how we can put a group of 25 strangers together, who all have different goals, expectations, and time constraints, and see each of them remain until the end regardless of anything else that happens in the raid or in their life (drops, wipes, wife came home, cat peed on foot, etc.).


Here is my thought - when queueing for an LFR how about two options -

A. Fresh Queue - Puts the player into a fresh run
B. Random Status Queue - Player can be put into the raid anywhere in it's progress. If it just so happens they get a fresh run, it is just luck of the draw.

Here is my theory, and this won't please everyone - but it's my theory.

Say I'm running Terrace and half way through - uh oh - emergency came up and I have to go... I take care of business and then come back some time later. Obviously, I'm probably not looking for a fresh queue - at that point, i can check the box for "Random Status" and be thrown into whatever LFR is the next available. I'm not saying we have to let the player find out what boss they may be on (I'm actually in favor of not finding how many bosses are down), but it would at least increase the odds of finding a run that isn't fresh when one isn't required, whereas a fresh run would guarantee just that - a fresh run.

The argument now is "Well, this might detract players later in the week who are doing a fresh run when most of the populus may have already done and completed their LFR. Well, this may be the case, but that is why I mention leaving the "fresh run" as an automatic option for a "random status queue". Random Status queue doesn't necessarily HAVE to be a run that has 1 boss down already.

It's not perfect, and it would certainly need some work, but that is my thought on the matter.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
19035
01/25/2013 01:13 PMPosted by Canaz
Absolutely. We don't want for you to run the same instance multiple times either. We'd be happy to entertain ideas for how we can put a group of 25 strangers together, who all have different goals, expectations, and time constraints, and see each of them remain until the end regardless of anything else that happens in the raid or in their life (drops, wipes, wife came home, cat peed on foot, etc.).


Perhaps offer a better VP award for in-progress runs would solve this problem, while still allowing players the choice of accepting an in-progress queue. It might even make in-progress desirable!
(say a 50% bonus per dead boss; since most raids are 3-4 boss chunks it wouldn't get that out of hand and would help people who helped an in-progress run cap their valor that much faster.

Just a thought.

Sounds like a great idea. Expand the choices for players. You can choose to "Call to Arms" so to speak for an in progress LFR or pick a new one because you need stuff from the start. A simple UI is good and keeps it less complex but greater game play choices for players should always outweigh UI design.
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90 Goblin Warlock
10520
01/25/2013 12:31 PMPosted by Bashiok
Well I appreciate the quote, at least. But, and don't take this the wrong way, think back to a time not-that-long-ago before LFR existed. How much raid content were you seeing then, how far had you progressed, and what was the time investment? I'm not saying we don't want LFR to be a smooth and pleasant experience, or be accessible, but it's putting 25 people together to let them see, experience, and even get awesome items from end-game content. That is pretty amazing. Automated game systems can only do so much to ensure it's a pleasant experience on the personal terms and whims for every single person.


could you please just make a macro for this and have it auto-repost every time someone creates one of these. Very well said my friend.

01/25/2013 12:55 PMPosted by Bashiok
Absolutely. We don't want for you to run the same instance multiple times either. We'd be happy to entertain ideas for how we can put a group of 25 strangers together, who all have different goals, expectations, and time constraints, and see each of them remain until the end regardless of anything else that happens in the raid or in their life (drops, wipes, wife came home, cat peed on foot, etc.).


OK, and that one needs to make it into the Forum Hall of Fame

sooo gonna use that in raid now

um, hang on guize! cat peed on foot!
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90 Pandaren Priest
11780
01/25/2013 11:14 AMPosted by Bashiok
If you enter and complete a partial clear you will be given priority for a fresh run the next time you enter the queue, letting you pick up any missed bosses. The 45 Valor for completing that run too isn't a bad deal, either.


Yep, it just becomes extremely more time consuming then, especially if the boss you needed was the second one, and you came in on the third one, then have to start all over again once its done.
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100 Human Mage
17025
The change to hide the boss count actually improved my odds of getting a fresh run. It also made a dramatic improvement in queue speed, especially when queuing with a premade raid containing two tanks (at least during prime time).

My healer this week had to run two raids twice due to getting partway through, but that has been the exception rather than the rule. And given the very short queue time for a healer, this didn't add much time and I even stayed for the last boss since the group was decent and I always feel guilty for bailing out on a group as a healer because I know how in demand they are.

The biggest advantage though in hiding the boss count is the lack of the dreaded BLACK HOLE raid. This is the raid that fails on a boss like Garalon and becomes a revolving door of people coming in, seeing a last boss and leavling. If you are stuck trying to finish the raid, you can wait a very long time to get a stable enough group for one try, and if you wipe half will bail out and you have to start the tedious time consuming fill the raid process all over again. If you are queuing for a fresh run and wind up getting assigned to a black hole raid your only option is to take the offering or try again in an hour and pray that raid finally clears out.

I'm not jumping up and down saying YAY I love doing partials, but I appreciate how improved things became after the change to hide the info and I don't want to see it revert back the way it was. If it truly bothers you to get in a partial, then bail out and try again later.
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