Let us see how many bosses are dead already..

90 Draenei Shaman
13805
01/25/2013 11:47 PMPosted by Pinoko
Yep, it just becomes extremely more time consuming then, especially if the boss you needed was the second one, and you came in on the third one, then have to start all over again once its done.
If you came in on the first one you would have dropped group after the second one, and if you had your way the remainder of the raid would be screwed over because many players would refuse to come in on the last boss. Net savings:

You == 15 minutes
24 other players == -10 minutes while waiting for replacements

Thanks for being such a team player. Maybe while we're at it we can rearrange the bus schedules and routes in your home town so the buses can take you to your destinations directly and you won't be forced to wait for everyone else to hit their stops too.

If you just cooperated with the current system this is what would happen:

You come in on the last boss and spend 15 minutes tops taking it down, collecting 90 valor along the way. Poor baby, that's only 18 dailies' worth of valor in 15 minutes. I see how you might feel jipped by that.

Then you requeue and pop into a fresh run. You spend 30 minutes killing the first boss as well as the boss you wanted to kill in the first place.

Now you have a choice. You can stick it out for an extra 15 minutes and pick up 45 extra valor points (9 dailies' worth), or you can call it quits at that point with no penalties.

I really see no downside to this. I keep seeing complaints about the long queue times, but I don't really sympathize much with those, especially now that we have so many activities we could do while waiting in queue. You can now run scenarios while being in the LFR queue. You can even do dungeons while being in the LFR queue. You can do dailies, manage your farm, conduct AH transactions, and do some archaeology all while waiting for the queue to pop. I have never had longer than a 30 second wait for a scenario. I'm willing to bet that your LFR queue will pop instantly by the time you finish your third scenario and/or first dungeon.
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90 Draenei Shaman
13805
01/25/2013 03:27 PMPosted by Kaylum
I think the thing some people don't like is waiting a hour for an in progress group.
I really don't see an excuse for this. Let's face it: you're not going to valor cap through LFR. Instead of standing around while waiting in queue people should engage in activities that will supplement their valor. Many valor pieces are better than anything you'll find in LFR, and even after you've exhausted your purchase options you can spend the VP to upgrade your existing gear. Queueing for a specific boss is silly because the chances that a single boss will drop the exact piece of gear that you want on a given night usually range from 5% (if the boss drops three pieces for your spec) and 15% (if the boss only drops one piece for your spec). The chance of getting your VP? 100% every time. Participating in an in-progress group effectively rewards you 150% of the valor for the same net amount of work. If everyone took the time to think about this they would be ecstatic to find themselves in a partial raid.
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90 Draenei Shaman
13805
01/25/2013 06:09 PMPosted by Selenah
If you are put in a partial run and stay to finish you get double the VP you would have earned.
You're already getting 150% of the valor for the same amount of work as it is. I don't know that bumping that up to 200% is going to make much difference.

Don't like giving us more valor? How bout an achievement "Sticking With It!" Complete X amount of partial LFR runs Give a pet or a title "Good Guy"
That would actually be pretty cool. I like it.

Don't like that? How bout an extra roll on the gear from all bosses killed in that session?
I don't think so. I think the current 150% valor bonus is already incentive enough. I don't think that additional loot rewards are the way to go here.

Another way of looking at it. Example: I as a player have out geared LFR, but I still lack Wrathion sigils, I really don't care whether I run the 1st or second half of the raid because all the bosses drop the sigils. Maybe give an option to queue for multiple LFRS like LFD or the one big random T14 LFR button.
That's one of the funniest things I've heard tonight. The person who outgears LFR without having collected enough sigils is either the luckiest person in the world (for collecting gear so blindingly fast that they didn't have time to get all the sigils) or the unluckiest person in the world (for not ever having sigils drop despite having killed enough bosses to have geared up). I think that situation will be even more unlikely now that they hotfixed Heart of Fear to always drop Wisdoms and MV to mostly drop Powers. I kind of like the option of queueing for multiple LFRs.

Iterate it even further. Queue for 1 boss at a time. I want this guy and that guy but I don't care about that guy, bam queue each one and go. Or hey there is one big queue of I don't give a murloc's poot lets go kill something. Putting you in where ever the system needs.
I think this is going too far. Leaving mid-raid is something that is tolerated because everyone understands that sometimes RL happens. It's not something that should be encouraged.

01/25/2013 06:09 PMPosted by Selenah
In any event, giving more control over the player's queuing may be better or worse, but if the system was more intelligent, like being able to track a player's weekly kills, then it would send someone to a 2/3 fight because the cat peed on his foot right before he could pull 3/3 earlier and he would be happy, like pressing resume on his remote, while a person who is 0/3 would be favored (do not read guaranteed) for a 0/3 group.
The system is already intelligent. If you were a team player and you already helped a 1/3 or 2/3 group finish their fight you're favored for a 0/3 group. That's fair. The game shouldn't reward you for being a selfish jerk who refuses to play if it's not exactly their way at their convenience.

If queue times are really the sticking point here, why not just give the player who just completed a partial the option to go to the front of the queue upon their requeueing? I think that's more fair than rewarding people for leaving fights early.
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90 Draenei Shaman
13805
This presupposes that I have the extra time to actually run two LFRs per week of the same instance... I don't (2+ hours of queue = no). If I decide to queue for LFR (which I no longer do), I want to do a fresh run, period.

You talk as if you're being stuffed into a box for one hour waiting for your queue to pop. The fact is that you could queue for dungeons, queue for scenarios, do dailies, check your auctions, maintain your farm, and/or do archaeology all without being removed from the LFR queue. Are you really saying that you don't have 2 hours a week to play outside of LFR? Unless LFR is the really the only activity you perform in this game, I find this to be a very weak rationale for insisting on a fresh run every time.
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90 Troll Shaman
10770
01/25/2013 11:46 AMPosted by Congelatore
This presupposes that I have the extra time to actually run two LFRs per week of the same instance... I don't (2+ hours of queue = no).


If you don't have the extra time to kill off one more hour in an entire week, you need to stop playing WoW entirely and get your priorities straight.
Edited by Llamasham on 1/26/2013 2:37 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Warrior
9685
Why not just let us queue per boss.

Treat each boss as a daily since as you know you like daily time syncs.

Problem solved.
Edited by Easypeasy on 1/26/2013 4:28 AM PST
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85 Tauren Warrior
7375
Oh boy 45 valor. For wasting probably an hour of our time?
you did not waste your time, since you would have had to wait the same amount of time for someone ELSE to help clear that in-progress instance if you did not help in order to make room for the fresh instance YOU want - so, since you helped clear the in-progress instance, you got 45 valor, if you did not help, you would have sat in the queue for that time with no valor...


I did waste my time. I don't care about the valor, I want the loot from the first and third boss, not the last boss. I wasted the time waiting in the queue twice. If Blizz would let folks only queue for the boss they want it would fix a lot of problems. The people who only want the last boss get what they want, and the folks who want a full run get what they want.

I guess I just don't have much patience after sitting in queues for 45 minutes only to get the last boss and not the whole raid.
Edited by Grug on 1/26/2013 10:08 AM PST
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85 Tauren Warrior
7375
Hey Blizz here's a thought...let us see what we're siging up for BEFORE accepting an LFR invite.

Maybe we don't want to come in on the tail end of a run especially if the gear we're in search of comes from a boss that's already dead. Or maybe we've killed the last boss already and need a run that will let us get the first two. There are any number of reasons but regardless, we shouldn't be penalized for 30 minutes for wanting a fresh run.

We used to be able to see how many bosses were down already and we could make an informed decision about whether or not we wanted to join. Maybe there's been some discussion explaining why the change was made but, I'm sorry, it was a dumb idea that takes away player choice.

Please bring back the raid preview.


if they did this, no one would accept the que for 2/3 bosses down, and that group would be screwed.


This isn't true. There plenty of people who only want the valor and have slog thru the rest of the raid.
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90 Gnome Warlock
1740
01/25/2013 12:55 PMPosted by Bashiok
Absolutely. We don't want for you to run the same instance multiple times either. We'd be happy to entertain ideas for how we can put a group of 25 strangers together, who all have different goals, expectations, and time constraints, and see each of them remain until the end regardless of anything else that happens in the raid or in their life (drops, wipes, wife came home, cat peed on foot, etc.).


Merge partial runs that are on the same boss together and let us go back to queueing for fresh runs, or partial runs for those just after the VP, if we decide to do so.

There were numerous elements of your other responses that I wanted to replay to, but don't have the time, so I opted for this one. If you want ideas the community has lots of those, it's just a matter of whether or not your dev team is willing to ever implement something that wasn't homegrown first.
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90 Draenei Paladin
12545
Should just make it so, when you queue and you get a raid in progress, you finish that raid and get a buff. Something like, your next LFR queue for (insert instance) will be instant. So instead of waiting 40 minutes and ending up on the last boss and raging, you might wait an additional minute or so to get back into the same instance hopefully with a fresh run.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
0
Here's my issue with not seeing LFR boss counts. I go que LFR. An hour later, I get in (yay dps ques). I am at 2/3. So I kill the last boss, make 24 other people's day. YAY! Good for me! I helped!

Now I re-que to finish the raid. I get in after another hour...I do the first two bosses...AND THEN I DROP!!!! I have no interest in doing the 3rd boss again. So now someone else is forced to do this LFR twice, simply because I was forced to do the LFR twice.

And guess what, they are probably gana do exactly what I did. And the guy that replaces them is gana do the same, etc.

So you're "fix" (no boss count) just means that ALL the dps (and I am guessing lots of tanks) get to do each LFR twice.

It's a TERRIBLE fix. Instead of some people having to do LFR twice, EVERYONE has to.

Here's a real fix. Each toon may only enter each LFR once per week. You have to leave early because you're cats on fire or you don't like the tank or mom's making you take the garbage out or whatever? TOO BAD! That week you can miss that one boss or whatever. And you don't get the valor for finishing that wing.

Now, if you were one of the poor saps who got into a LFR in the middle, the ya, you can que again. But I think if there was a real punishment for leaving LFR early, then less people would leave early. And THAT is what you want to try to get people to do. You do NOT want to try to convince your player base that sitting thru LFR twice per LFR is a good thing for everyone, you want to convince them to stay for the whole 30 mins to 1 hour it takes to murder 3-4 very very very very very very very easy bosses.

And I am sorry, but if you, as a player, can't budget your time properly enough to where you can set aside an uninterrupted hour or so for an LFR, maybe you're life's too busy to be playing WoW.

EDIT: TL;DR - The current system punished everyone. Instead, only punish people who leave LFRs, and punish them SEVERELY.
Edited by Bracfabio on 1/26/2013 2:25 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
17255
01/25/2013 12:31 PMPosted by Bashiok
think back to a time not-that-long-ago before LFR existed. How much raid content were you seeing then, how far had you progressed, and what was the time investment?


Wait, I thought you said LFR was casual content? Now you're saying it's raid content? And you're comparing the time commitment to raids?

I hate to say it -- but I told you so. MONTHS ago. But no one listens.

To all those "casuals" rooting for LFR, we clear Terrace + HoF in 2 1/2 hours. Unless you are a healer, you can't even queue into 3 LFRs in the time we've cleared the place.

The complaints about LFR are a symptom.

There simply isn't enough casual content. And as you astutely pointed out Bashiok, LFR isn't really casual content. It's just dumbed down raid content.
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97 Human Mage
16255
Here's my issue with not seeing LFR boss counts. I go que LFR. An hour later, I get in (yay dps ques). I am at 2/3. So I kill the last boss, make 24 other people's day. YAY! Good for me! I helped!

Now I re-que to finish the raid. I get in after another hour...I do the first two bosses...AND THEN I DROP!!!! I have no interest in doing the 3rd boss again. So now someone else is forced to do this LFR twice, simply because I was forced to do the LFR twice.

And guess what, they are probably gana do exactly what I did. And the guy that replaces them is gana do the same, etc.

So you're "fix" (no boss count) just means that ALL the dps (and I am guessing lots of tanks) get to do each LFR twice.

It's a TERRIBLE fix. Instead of some people having to do LFR twice, EVERYONE has to.

Here's a real fix. Each toon may only enter each LFR once per week. You have to leave early because you're cats on fire or you don't like the tank or mom's making you take the garbage out or whatever? TOO BAD! That week you can miss that one boss or whatever. And you don't get the valor for finishing that wing.

Now, if you were one of the poor saps who got into a LFR in the middle, the ya, you can que again. But I think if there was a real punishment for leaving LFR early, then less people would leave early. And THAT is what you want to try to get people to do. You do NOT want to try to convince your player base that sitting thru LFR twice per LFR is a good thing for everyone, you want to convince them to stay for the whole 30 mins to 1 hour it takes to murder 3-4 very very very very very very very easy bosses.

And I am sorry, but if you, as a player, can't budget your time properly enough to where you can set aside an uninterrupted hour or so for an LFR, maybe you're life's too busy to be playing WoW.

EDIT: TL;DR - The current system punished everyone. Instead, only punish people who leave LFRs, and punish them SEVERELY.


This assumes that everyone is like you and when they requeue a second time they drop out of the run instead of finish it. Personally I stay in and finish the run. It's a single boss and it'll take about 15 minute depending on the run and how much trash there is prior. If you can't wait that extra 15 minutes then you're the one not budgeting your time properly.

LFR is fine as is. There are plenty of things to do while waiting on the ungodly dps queue. Go do dailies, farm for mats to help your guild, heck READ A BOOK for all it matters. It's not like you're forced to sit there and stare at the timer for the queue the entire time.

Someone stated earlier about how LFR killed server community, etc. If a single addition to the game caused that, then your server was already dying to begin with. I've played through quite a bit of the game (Joining during BC) and honestly the game is much like it was back then. The only difference is you sit there for 30 or so minutes to look for a random dungeon instead of spamming trade for that long to look for the very same thing. Now you can do other things while waiting as opposed to sitting in a city doing nothing. LFR provided a helpful boost to people seeing raids, possibly getting gear but you're not required to have that gear to get into normal raids. Yes many mechanics are dulled down or whatever, but guess what? If you're relying on LFR to teach you mechanics then you really don't seem to understand what it's for in the first place. All of my raiders have a basic understanding of what to expect in a raid if they do LFR but I also tell them to make sure they at least read up on the normal version of the encounter before we do the boss, if not watch a video or two as well. I don't expect them all to prepare like crazy because everyone has a life outside of WoW and to my guild that's more important.

Take for example the off tank for my run had a family emergency, I being the other tank was unable to connect due to a boondocks internet connection and a healer was out of town. We called raid for that day and while people were disappointed we weren't raiding they understood. How many guilds out there that are progression push actually understand that? i can tell you right now that the 2 or 3 that I was in personally didn't. You were a dps number or a tank/healer, not a person. It doesn't take raiding to form a community, it takes the willingness to create that community to do it.
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90 Dwarf Priest
13715
What I'd actually like to see for LFR is being able to queue up for more than one at a time.

I have no objections to going in 2/4 bosses cleared and picking up the rest later. Being able to queue multiple LFR's at a time would really cut down on the average wait time.
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88 Dwarf Paladin
10430
First - I like not knowing as it makes it quicker to regroup when your group is already in progress and everyone thinks it's time to /ragequit.

Second - Blizzard is more than happy having you run multiple times. The longer you play the more you're hooked on the game.

You know, some people really like being able to get in quickly. Others do not. If Blizzard was listening to their community they might come up with a cool idea like a preference toggle on the raid queue screen. Something like... "I'd prefer a fresh run" or "I'd like the first available".

Customer focus... Blizzard doesn't have it.
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