Response to Blizzards response

90 Human Priest
13020
On the topic of PW:Shield, back in say LK, the Disc play style was to tab through every target and PW:S them. It was effective, and boring. We wanted to move away from that and we were successful. However, PW:S is still supposed to be a core spell for Disc and we're seeing very little use of it on live. There should be room in the rotation for Spirit Shell, Prayer of Healing and Power Word: Shield and there isn't right now. This isn't a change in philosophy -- any time you see a spec using one spell or ability to the exclusion of others, you can assume we're probably not happy with that. As I said before, if you need to heal damage on a lot of players at once -- use Prayer of Healing. But if a lot of incoming damage is coming, you should probably PW:S several people and not use Prayer of Healing. On live, you'd still just use PoH because it's your best AE heal and your best AE absorb.

I am incredulous that blizzard is seeing 'very little of [PW:S] on live.' I use it on the tanks every time WS wears off in EVERY encounter, mixed with SS/PoH the raid. I will even PW:S and SS/flash heal JUST TANKS in fights like Lei Shi! The raid leader will ask me to PW:S strike targets on H-windlord, and I use PW:S during tornado phase on bladelord on any player who is dipping lower/not getting heals, as well as on windstrike targets. I'm sure I'm not the ONLY disc who does the same. Disc priests ARE using PW:S - dont give me that crap that they arent. I looked on WoL and browsed ranks of dpriests for heroic TOES, and each of them use PW:S a generous amount. I realize this is a narrow margin and not a good representation of all discs in the game - but it shows that discs who know how to get the MOST out of their toon use the spell.

Blizzards ceiling on mana pools forced many discs to stop using PW:S as liberally as they would have, because our mana pools arent the impressive force they were in DS, which could accommodate for more PW:S usage. By placing the mana cap - they limited which heals we could use - and we were forced to ask ourselves, which is the team going to benefit more from: an expensive ST heal, or a MUCH CHEAPER Aoe heal that collectively heals for more?

And for your comment to PW:S targets with lots of incoming damage...how ridiculous. You want me to PW:S 25/several players!? Are you serious? It would take me 1 second to shield a single toon for roughly 100k give or take a buff. Why do this when you can just PI/SS/PoH the raid/group in less than half the time for less than half the cost with a ceiling absorb of roughly 250k!? Which sounds more effective to you?
Edited by Pradaxa on 1/19/2013 5:48 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Priest
13930
A Look At PW:Shield Usage in Heroic Terrace Encounters

Looking at the percentage of healing accounted for by PW:Shield in the top 10 Disc Priest parses..

Protectors of the Endless (Hard)

10:
1. 4.8% 6. 5.7%
2. 9.4% 7. 6.1%
3. 7.9% 8. 4.6%
4. 5% 9. 5.3%
5. 7% 10. 10.6%


25:
1. 5.5% 6. 2.3%
2. 4.6% 7. 5.2%
3. 4.6% 8. 4.9%
4. 3% 9. 10%
5. 7.2% 10. 5.4%


Tsulong

10:
1. 2.6% 6. 4.7%
2. 5.5% 7. 6.4%
3. 2.7% 8. 3.2%
4. 4.8% 9. 7.1%
5. 3.9% 10. 4.7%


25:
1. 4.1% 6. 3.8%
2. 3.5% 7. 3.1%
3. 4.1% 8. 7%
4. 4.1% 9. 3.1%
5. 2.5% 10. 3.7%


Lei Shi

10:
1. 10.1% 6. 11.6%
2. 8.6% 7. 8.2%
3. 9% 8. 13.5%
4. 6% 9. 7.1%
5. 8.7% 10. 10.4%


25:
1. 10.9% 6. 5.6%
2. 7.3% 7. 8.2%
3. 9.7% 8. 9.5%
4. 6.9% 9. 10.6%
5. 8.2% 10. 5%


Sha of Fear

10:
1. 12.1% 6. 13.4%
2. 11.9% 7. 4.2%
3. 20.7% 8. 10%
4. 8.5% 9. 20.8%
5. 11.8% 10. 19.7%


25:
1. 11.9% 6. 19.9%
2. 8.4% 7. 7.2%
3. 14.8% 8. 19.4%
4. 8.6% 9. 21.1%
5. 12.6% 10. 8.3%


I also took a quick look at Heroic Stone Guard, which I consider an excellent opportunity for heavy PW:Shield use...

10.
1. 5.6% 6. 13.3%
2. 11.3% 7. 7.4%
3. 4.7% 8. 11.4%
4. 11.4% 9. 10.2%
5. 5.3% 10. 9%


25:
1. 8.4% 6. 9%
2. 0.7% 7. 3.8%
3. 9.8% 8. 1%
4. 11.2% 9. 3.7%
5. 22.7% 10. 5.2%


The highest I've seen on Stone Guards was my own. I managed 30% PW:Shield use one night by keeping PW:Shield up on all 3 tanks as often as possible.

Conclusion

For most fights, PW:Shield will account for less than 10% of the Priest's healing while PoH and PoH-based abilities will account for 70% and up. It isn't wrong to say, overall, there is very little PW:Shield use on live.

It would also behoove you to read this:

...we have no objection to using Prayer of Healing when you need to heal a bunch of people. That's what it's for. But when you're using Prayer of Healing in preparation for future damage because DA and SS make your AE heal better at shielding than actual Power Word: Shield, then that even further reduces your options. (In 10s, Disc tends to use Atonement more, so they're doing something more than just PoH spam. In 25s, we see some Atonement use, but it's fit in when possible and healers in 25s are just always going to be able to specialize more.)

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7593740975?page=19#371

I believe GC is trying to encourage heavier PW:Shield use, which makes sense. The goal isn't to return to PW:Shield spam, but to give it more purpose and make it more desirable in AE situations. Right now, it is almost exclusively desirable (a) in encounters where tanks or a small handful of people not in the same group are taking heavy damage and (b) as a Rapture return.
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90 Human Priest
13020
If you take a look at specific healing parses for disc, and you count the number of times that disc used PW:S, I got roughly about 25 times, give or take depending on the healer. If you use PW:S 25 times, and it has basically a 15 second CD because of WS, that makes for about a 6.5 minute fight. Assuming a disc lets a few seconds go by after WS falls off because they are busy SS/PoH the raid, penance a player who got low, or channeling mana hymn, etc, then this would make total sense that disc are using PW:S on tanks with a pretty good uptime, not on dps. Makes sense.

Just fumes me that they say PW:S isn't being used, when its being used with a good uptime on the ppl it makes sense to use it on.
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90 Night Elf Priest
13930
I think you're misunderstanding what GC is saying, though. That's my point. Yes, it makes sense to use it on the tanks. However, he and the other developers feel that isn't enough. They want PW:Shield to be more widely used. They want it to be a viable source for pre-shielding without it returning to its spam-heaviness of WotLK.
Edited by Elethia on 1/19/2013 8:11 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
2245
The problem I see is GC has said multiple times recently "absorbed is better than healed" so that leaves me to believe Disc priest will now always parse lower then other healers post 5.2 and nothing will be done about it.

I am not going to argue the point if this is correct or not. The "meters don't matter" just as long as you are beating the encounter attitude is correct in my opinion, but we all know the healing meter meta game is very prevalent especially in the casual raiding setting.

I have never linked or mentioned a healing parse before but I have a feeling post 5.2 they will be linked or mentioned in my setting and right or wrong I am not going to be very happy being dead last on the board...it just does not sound like fun to me to be by far last on parses and there is nothing I can do about it.
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90 Night Elf Priest
13930
Do you believe we will be last because GC has said absorption is better than healing (source please, by the way) or because you've actually tested things on the PTR and have found yourself "by far last"?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
If that happens, Omertas, I can guarantee you that Disc Priests will be sat the way they were in Ulduar. It didn't matter that we could make a tank's health steady, and could provide raid-wide AOE mitigation. Raid leaders couldn't see it on a meter, so we were sat or told to go Holy.

I should add, I think GC knows that. So...I don't see that happening.
Edited by Tiriél on 1/19/2013 8:56 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
2245
01/17/2013 10:01 AMPosted by Ghostcrawler
Yes, Disc PoH will be weaker than Holy PoH, but that is offset by the incredible benefit brought by absorbs


and

01/14/2013 09:08 PMPosted by Ghostcrawler
Disc's throughput is overall too strong in PvE, not even counting the fact that absorbs are often more beneficial than heals.


I have not personally tested 5.2 yet but I think it's something I should do. I have watched Blood Legions stream and their Disc priest is about 12% behind the monk when it was usually the other way around. This was 10m content I believe it will be worse in 25m.
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90 Night Elf Priest
13930
Well, what he's saying isn't wrong. Absorbs are often more beneficial than healing. You have only to look at fights like Blade Lord and Wind Lord to see that. It's also a tough balancing act, though, and I think the developers know that better than anyone (regardless of whether we see that evidenced in the live gameplay).

Discipline needs to be strong enough in raw healing without providing too much on top of what we can preempt.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13150
Also, referring to Omertas point:

01/18/2013 01:39 PMPosted by Ghostcrawler
Disc won't provide the best healing out there, but that seems fair given that they will still provide the best shielding out there. We'll see fewer Disc priests, but still plenty, and more Holy priests and Resto druids. That doesn't seem like an unreasonable goal....


In any case, I'm with Pradaxa on this. They deliberately made it cost prohibitive outside of rapture and now, seeing priests using it the way we thought we were supposed to based specifically on the mana carrot/stick design of the mechanic, he seems to imply they meant something else. I also looked at top (normal) parses and saw PW:S used about 4 times a minute. Is that what he means when he says very little use?

"But if a lot of incoming damage is coming, you should probably PW:S several people and not use Prayer of Healing. On live, you'd still just use PoH because it's your best AE heal and your best AE absorb."

Yes, and to quote myself, because it's our only AE heal, and because it's 13,500 mana on (maybe) 5 people, versus 54,900 mana on 3, and because it's 2.39 seconds versus 3 gcds. Will a 25% mana cost reduction on the next raptured shield make that a better option, even with poh being significantly weaker?
Edited by Alashe on 1/19/2013 9:56 PM PST
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90 Draenei Priest
6975
If that happens, Omertas, I can guarantee you that Disc Priests will be sat the way they were in Ulduar. It didn't matter that we could make a tank's health steady, and could provide raid-wide AOE mitigation. Raid leaders couldn't see it on a meter, so we were sat or told to go Holy.

I should add, I think GC knows that. So...I don't see that happening.


I doubt this will happen in today's game because any raid leader with half a brain knows how valuable absorbs and mitigation are (and also because meters actually track absorbs now).
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90 Night Elf Druid
2245
To be honest if Disc is in the same spot post 5.2 as we were @ the beginning of MOP before the ridiculous buff's, when most knew the history how disc scales with gear I will be fine with it.

I was still competitive @ the start of MOP but my gut feeling is post 5.2 we will not be if things stay the way they are. This is all speculation because I have not tested out PTR yet.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/19/2013 09:42 PMPosted by Dysrhythmia
I doubt this will happen in today's game because any raid leader with half a brain knows how valuable absorbs and mitigation are (and also because meters actually track absorbs now).


True, but if we don't appear to be pulling our weight on the meters, no amount of absorbs is going to make up for that outside of gimmick encounters.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13150
It will hurt those in more casual raiding groups, rather than semi- and hardcore raiders, which is unfortunate.
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
01/19/2013 09:02 PMPosted by Omertas
Yes, Disc PoH will be weaker than Holy PoH, but that is offset by the incredible benefit brought by absorbs


and

Disc's throughput is overall too strong in PvE, not even counting the fact that absorbs are often more beneficial than heals.


I have not personally tested 5.2 yet but I think it's something I should do. I have watched Blood Legions stream and their Disc priest is about 12% behind the monk when it was usually the other way around. This was 10m content I believe it will be worse in 25m.


One thing you need to bear in mind when comparing disc to monk is that nearly every single bit of contribution a monk makes shows up on the meters. This is not the case with disc as pw: b and pain suppression are both damage reduction abilities which are un-tracked. Disc is also much better at controlling the healing and, of course, there's the whole damage absorbed>damage healed aspect.

I'm not saying the nerfs to disc aren't too much, just that only looking at throughput numbers can be making a faulty comparison.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10380
A lot of you are taking issue with this statement:
01/14/2013 09:08 PMPosted by Ghostcrawler
absorbs are often more beneficial than heals.

but the thing is, it's true...in a sense.

One could make a good argument that, point for point, effective absorbs are worth the same amount as effective healing. There's a certain utility to having the healing come in the form of absorbs, but in terms of having the numbers to beat the encounter, assuming abilities are balanced so that they can be healed after the face and mitigation doesn't reduce the total amount of healing needed (i.e. assuming we're not dealing with Infest mechanics or oneshots) effective absorbs and effective healing are about equally valuable.

The problem is that, for a good player on progression content when healers are well-balanced, absorbs are ~95% effective while heals are ~80% effective. So if a spec's effective healing is intended to be to be 50% absorbs, that spec's theoretical output needs to be roughly 90% of the theoretical output of a spec that's 100% healing.

That's a gross oversimplification, of course - pure healing specs also need to vary in theoretical output because their effectiveness varies as well. It's a complicated business. But basically, if Disc is balanced in actual play, it's going to Simcraft lower than the average pure healing spec by a small amount on the order of 10%.

Prayer of Healing being used as an absorb mucks that up because it causes the portion of Disc's output that's pure healing to have a lower rate of effectiveness than most pure healing. For that to work and look balanced, Disc's theoretical output might need to match or even exceed other healers'. But then you've got a problem in situations (e.g. underhealing progression content) where Disc can actually use all of that output, so it's not really balanced. Separating absorbs from healing solves that problem.

(I'm not saying Disc wasn't overnerfed. I've seen the Blood Legion streams too, and I agree that Disc probably needs more compensatory buffs.)
Edited by Kaels on 1/20/2013 7:53 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13150
I understand and agree with all of that, and if I'm able to do my fair share and we're beating encounters I'm good with all of that, and of course it's still very early. But I admit I've lost a bit of faith--they let us go to live with very expensive absorbs, a non-interacting set of spells, and pretty weak heals (and everybody scales); gave us a bunch of wild buffs (which by the way I don't really think can be "blamed" on priests voicing concerns [the same concerns we voiced in beta, incidentally] even if some people enjoy insisting we were all hysterical--developers ignore massive amounts of hysteria regularly, and rightfully so); and I have some doubts now, having seen some wild swings, that they'll feel compelled to nerf evenhandedly and make sure we'll be strong enough for raids. Which feels unfair to say because I really do know they work hard and care about the game and there are 10 million of us (I understand WHY they put up with us; I don't understand HOW--they could take our money and never explain their thoughts behind anything and completely forego opening themselves up to crazy levels of rage and scorn).

...

(I still think we'll need a buff to poh.)
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