Get the Desktop App for Battle.net Now
- All your games in 1 place
- Log in once
- Automatic game updates
NOTE: I realize I recently posted a thread about Int Plate and Shockadins. That was more focused on creating the 4th spec for a paladin to make another user of int plate, similar to how shamans have resto and ele on int mail. This thread, while based on the ideas I talked about in the other thread, is meant to be soley about the shockadin spec and any ideas people have about my version of it, how viable it could be to include the spec in general in the game, and any ideas people have about the spec in general. Sorry for posting a lot in a relatively short amount of time. Thanks.
Judgment – A magic attack that unleashes the energy of a Seal to cause _____ Holy damage, generate one charge of holy power, and apply the Magic (Holy?) Vulnerability debuff to a target. Instant Cast. 6 Second Cooldown.
Magic Vulnerability – Weakens the will of an enemy target, increasing their magic damage taken by 4% for 30 seconds. Only applied by Judgment.
Exorcism – Forcefully attempt to expel the evil from the target with a blast of Holy Light. Causes _____ Holy damage and has a 10% chance of generating a charge of Holy Power. 2 Second cast time. No Cooldown.
Hammer of Wrath – Hurls a magical hammer that strikes an enemy for _____ Holy damage and generates a charge of holy power. Only usable on enemies that have 20% or less remaining health or during Avenging Wrath. 6 Second Cooldown. Instant.
Harsh Words – Consumes up to 3 Holy Power to heal a friendly target for _____ or deal _____ damage to an enemy target. 1.5 Second Cooldown. Instant. Replaces Word of Glory.
Pillar of Light* – Calls down a pillar of light at your target location, causing _____ Holy damage over 10 seconds to enemies who enter the area. 5% chance pre tick to grant 1 holy power. This cannot occur more than once every 15 seconds. 10 Second Cooldown. Instant.
Holy Shock* – Blasts the target with holy energy, causing _____ Holy damage to an enemy, not usable on friendly targets in Shockadin spec. Grants 1 charge of Holy Power. Holy Shock has an additional 25% chance to be a critical strike. If the paladin lands a critical strike, their next Focused Light cast within 5 seconds will be instant cast. 6 Second Cooldown. Instant.
Ray of Light* – Channels a ray of light at an enemy target, dealing _____ Holy damage per second, increasing by 10% per second channeled, and dealing _____% of said damage to all enemies within 6 yards of the target. Able to be channeled for up to 10 seconds. Grants 1 Holy Power if the channel is completed. 20 Second Cooldown. Channeled.
Holy Explosion* – Consumes up to 3 Holy Power to deal _____ Holy damage per charge of Holy Power in a 10 yard radius from an enemy target. This will not deal damage to the primary target, but will disorientate them for 3 seconds if the target is not a player. 1.5 Second Cooldown. Instant.
Focused Light* - Focuses a thin beam of light on a single enemy target, dealing _____ Holy Damage and generating 1 Holy Power. 8 Second Cooldown. 3.5 Second Cast.
Guardian of Ancient Kings – Summons a Guardian of Ancient kings to help you deal damage for 30 seconds. The guardian will attack your current enemy, increasing your critical strike chance by _____ each strike, resetting to your normal crit chance after each crit. When the duration expires, you gain 1 Holy Power. 5 Minute Cooldown. Instant.
Divine Favor* – Grants the Paladin 20% increased spell haste and 20% increased critical strike chance for 20 seconds. 3 Minute Cooldown. Instant.
Avenging Wrath – Increases all damage and healing done by 20% for 20 seconds and allows use of Hammer of Wrath for the duration. 3 Minute Cooldown. Instant.
Divine Plea* – Returns 30,000 mana instantly and grants 1 charge of Holy Power. 2 Minute Cooldown. Instant.
“*” – Spec Specific ability.
Holy Power Generators; to more easily see:
- Judgment (6s Cooldown)
- Exorcism (10% chance)
- Hammer of Wrath (when available)
- Guardian of Ancient Kings (upon ending naturally /w 5m Cooldown)
- Pillar of Light (5% chance /w 15s Cooldown)
- Holy Shock (6s Cooldown)
- Ray of Light (if completed /w 20s Cooldown)
- Focused Light (8s Cooldown)
Holy Power Finishers; to more easily see:
- Harsh Words (Single Target)
- Holy Explosion (AoE)
I would like to make a couple of notes about abilities in this space. First off, suggestions are always welcome. This is honestly more for fun than anything else, since I doubt this spec will ever come to be, but it’s fun to dream, no?
Anyway, Harsh Words would work with Eternal Flame, much like shadow priests do damage with Halo as opposed to healing. If a paladin chose Eternal Flame as the shockadin spec and used it on an enemy, it would apply a DoT instead of a HoT.
Pillar of Light basically just acts like Consecration, but altered a bit to fit the needs of a dps player.
Holy Shock would need to be buffed in damage compared to the holy spec version of it, this is also true for most abilities that I’ve carried over from Holy.
Exorcism would work like the old version of it, which is explained in its tooltip. That model works better for a caster dps class, and could exist without changing the other specs version if need be. Or if that is not possible, a new spell could take the place of this version of exorcism, but do relatively the same thing. Or we could just carry over denounce, raise the damage, and take away the anti crit debuff.
Harsh Words would also need a major buff compared to how it works currently, but only for shockadin spec. This was touched on when I mentioned Holy Shock.
All in all, these abilities are just some quick ideas, and better ones are surely out there. I carried over many cooldowns and abilities from the other specs, but tried to add in some new things as well. I believe the current paladin talents still fit in well with this spec, so no redoing of talents is needed in that respect.
Divine Luck – Whenever the paladin lands a critical strike, holy damage dealt is increased by 5% for 5 seconds. This effect cannot occur more often than once every 10 seconds.
Guided by the Light – Converts 100% of the paladin’s spirit into hit rating.
Mastery - Increases damage done by instant cast spells by ____% per point of mastery.
Stat Priority (Guessing):
Intellect > 15% Spell hit [Spirit = Hit] > Haste > Crit > Mastery
Single Target Rotation:
1) Harsh Words with 5 Holy Power.
2) Holy Shock whenever possible for Holy Power and a chance at proccing Focused Light.
3) Hammer of Wrath When available for the Holy Power and strong damage.
4) Focused Light whenever it procs.
5) Judgment whenever possible for Holy Power.
6) Exorcism for consistent damage and a chance to proc Holy Power.
7) Harsh Words with 3 Holy Power.
1) Pillar of Light for immediate damage and a chance at proccing Holy Power.
2) Holy Explosion at 5 Holy Power.
3) Ray of Light whenever possible after Pillar of Light is active.
4) Holy Shock for Holy Power and Focused Light procs.
5) Hammer of Wrath for Holy Power if available.
6) Focused Light for Holy Power.
7) Judgment for Holy Power.
8) Holy Explosion at 3 Holy Power.
Use all the cooldowns at the begginning of a fight.
Use Divine Favor and Avenging Wrath together when they come off cooldown.
Use all the cooldowns together again when possible.
In the end, I was feedback from other paladins about these ideas, as well suggestions to improve these ideas. If you have completely different ideas that fit into the idea of a shockadin, express those as well. I want to see what people think. I did not attempt to put numbers in the blanks for abilities, as balancing the damage would be Blizzard's job.
Edit: I think this spec could [possibly] due with one more HoPo finisher. Not sure. Ret has 3 counting inquisition, Prot Doesn't, Holy doesn't. Thoughts on that as well?
Edit2: Getting some sleep, will respond to anything directed at me sometime tomorrow [technically today]
Edited by Tóri on 1/25/2013 12:47 AM PST
I like it, but I don't think it'll happen.
They also need some kind of gap opener for PvP.
Maybe Holy Explosion fills that ap and there's increased movement speed, along with the tier 1 talents. They'll also need many of Ret's abilities to work. Emancipate, Seal of Justice, maybe, those kinds of things.
I have an idea:
Overwhelming Light: Costs 1-3 HP, 20 second CD.
Blasts the target with an overwhelming force of light knocking them back ten yards, and disorienting them for 1/3/5 seconds.
Edited by Relandis on 1/25/2013 2:56 AM PST
Seals would all be there just like any paladin spec, granted insight would likely be most used outside of PvP. Maybe PvP as well, dunno.
Overwhelming Light sounds kinda like it could be a glyph for Blinding Light, more than a new thing in itself. Or maybe even a passive to the spec that affects Blinding Light.
I also don't think it'll happen, but it's something to talk about :P
And not a bad option for opening up more int plate users.
I'm going to be honest with you.
First off, I appreciate the thought and work you have put into this. Most posts about shockadins (99.99%) are lacking. I'll leave it at that ;o
However, it is my belief that paladin is a melee class. As such, a ranged spec doesn't make sense to me. You may say holy is ranged, well, so are the other healers. Personally, I'd rather holy was a melee healer with a few ranged tools, but that's off topic.
So as much as I do appreciate your train of though, and I do. I can't get behind shockadins. It doesn't feel right... at all. I don't want my 4th spec to be a Disc Priest in plate or a holy mage. Hell, I don't even want a 4th spec. Ask yourself, why? Int plate is only an issue to those with entitlement problems. So that's not it. A holy knight, a defender of the weak, the one who bolsters the ranks with their glory... should not EVER be in the back line pewpewing. Not ever. It's counter to everything a paladin has represented in almost every game that has a paladin archtype. Do you see what I am getting at? How long til we get ranged warriors and melee magi?
While I do believe paladins (baseline) could use some updates and tweaks, making a ranged spec is not the right direction to go. Again, that's just my opinion.
I can agree with you on some level about paladins being more of a melee class. It's definitely a valid point, especially looking at other games with paladin-like classes. However, I don't think a ranged spec is out of the question.
I know you said all healers are ranged, but a holy paladin is still a paladin, and yet for the most part we stay in the back, keep our hands clean, and heal. Yes we have a tiny amount of mana regen from meleeing, but that is not always possible, and it's only about 2000 mana when it procs. While it is not worthless, it's not a huge issue if we don't melee at all. On top of this, some players already do play holy paladins as "shockadins" - even if it isn't something that fits the typical paladin image, it's something players have come to do. Who's to say Blizzard couldn't do something a little different compared to the norm?
Do you view warlocks as a melee tanking class? While that's obviously not the main focus of demonology, it's something they can do, and do to some level of effectiveness. You might have an easier time seeing a warlock in that role than a paladin in a ranged dps role, but it's still not the norm, at least not in my mind.
Maybe with a shockadin spec, the reverse of what you said could be done. You think holy paladins should be more melee oriented with a few ranged tools. Maybe the shockadin could be more ranged dps oriented as far as spells and abilities go, but have a passive that increases their damage by x% the closer they are to their target? Kind of like how Halo works, but in reverse. Or maybe you could make certain abilities I've listed, or that others may come up with, melee range only, or lower their range to somewhere between 5-15 yards instead of the default 40.
edit: You don't even have to think about 4th specs for every class at this point. I know druids kind of needed the feral / guardian split, but still, they have a 4th spec and people are fine with that. To a lesser degree, you see holy paladins acting as rdps (though it is definitely minor compared to feral / guardian within the same spec and obviously not intended as that was) - This alone is a bit of a reason to consider a 4th spec, and on top of that, adding another spec to int plate (Which I know what you said about that, but to some it is still an issue, and in general, it would balance gear out more) could be a way to stop some complaints.
And as far as 4th specs for other classes go, I don't think a lot of mages or priests would mind a more active / spellswordy type spec, as long as it didn't end up being them literally being a melee class. I don't believe warriors would ever need another spec, there's not much else they can do. Same for rogues. Hunters could use a non-pet class, but that would be better suited as a talent like sac for warlocks or a retooling of MM.
Edited by Tóri on 1/25/2013 1:22 PM PST
I'm more worried about the lines between classes being blurred. It worked great for games like Rifts, cause you had 3 classes to pull from to make your toon. I want the classes in this game to be more distinguished from each other. One day, I'd like it to be hard to compare classes' skill vs each other because they are so unique. I'm trying to stay on topic, but it's hard when my mind keeps circling back to the sh!ttastic community this game has, which has affected it in ways that are truly disappointing.
The great thing about this game, and many others, is that you can roll alts. No class should be able to do everything... sounds silly coming from a true hybrid, eh? Druids made sense to me to split kitty and bear, even if it seemed a little lazy. But that's druids, and we ain't talkin' 'bout them. If I want to play ranged, I have a decent amount of choices. I honestly can't fathom a ranged paladin. Redundant, is what it is to me. Disc priests have always struck me as better shockadins, TBH. I'd actually be more comfortable with you suggesting Disc should get access to plate, with reasonable balancing.
Oh, I wasn't really talking about a 4th spec for anyone else, I was just placing ranged pally in an equally silly bracket of class/spec. Personal opinion, though. I mean, sure, it'd be nice to see "RETRN OF SHOKADINZ!!1one" threads disappear completely, but if that's the only plus side I see...
I probably can't be very constructive at this point, but thanks for the only good thread I've seen on this topic.
Another good point, about blurring the lines between classes. And indeed it would be amazing if we could barely compare skill because the classes were so unique, but at that point, people start to moan about not being about to do x as good as <insert class here>, even though that's likely the whole idea behind it all.
I really do think, if done properly, Blizzard could implement this spec in a way that keeps it feeling like a paladin, be it through how the spells work, the graphics associated with them, or whatever else. As long as it can be made to feel less like a "holy mage", I think it would still feel unique. IMO, classes SHOULD be somewhat similar in respect to what they can do. Obviously some classes should be better at some things than others [hunters and kiting, for one], and that can still be achieved here, as well as making it still seem unique.
I don't mean to come across as arguing, btw.
Nah. Good discussion. I just don't have much more than what I said :P
Although, I was thinking of a caster in plate as a new class all together. All specs would use Int plate, which would satisfy some people (and create a whole new breed of whiners :D). Could possibly fill all roles. "Spellsword" as you say. Battlemage.. whatever ;o And you would have a lot more room for uniqueness without touching paladins. But that's off topic :)
I have no issues with a holy ranged warrior who uses seals and judges the enemy.
Makes more sense than human magic anything. Heck, humans should be regulated to anything non magical in wow imo.
All I know is that TBC shockadin was simply fun. Enough fun that this guy was played a lot and then some into wrath..but last xpac and this one he will most likely be just another profession bot.
I think it is what you make it. And then Blizz makes everyone do what most ppl are doing anyway. In BC, I was leveling holy by autoattacking in full ret gear. But wait, there's more! You can play shockadin right now, and and actually in 3.0 blizz took away using ret gear to any advantage. Shockadin currently does at best half the dps of a dps class, so isn't done in any endgame content or where dps really matters. The reason blizz won't let healers do as much dps as a pure dps is the same reason they won't let a dps do as much healing as a healer, it's OP and unbalanced. Ret used to heal half as much as holy. I'd like to see holy be able to do more damage at the loss of more healing. also less cc in this game, and useful hammer of wrath.
I am currently leveling this guy exclusively as a shockadin. So far..I am top dps, able to provide off healing at key moments, as well as the rest of the pally utility. I know this will end at cap but until then I am enjoying this way of playing so much. Once day they will make it viable..
Tori, If they were to make a talent tree that was a semi mirror of Vanilla / TBC shockadin with a touch of the new stuff.......
Example being, the old seal / Judgment system that had Judgments that hit like a train load of granite..
And shocks that would wipe the smug smile of any ones face..
Setting up debuffs with Judgment of Crusader, then running up seal of Vengance for the Dot, and just a sec or two befor Crusader was about to drop, quick swap to Righteousness and drop the bomb with a quick shock..
Also, the old Aura,,,,, Sanctity aura, that would be awesome, it brought some intresting synergy to the preists in your group. 10% more holy damage was cool.
Also Consecrate for shockadins would be nice again.
I do like the new Denounce, as thats perty cool.
And the harsh words is sick too, but I do miss the old seal system when it comes to shockain play style..
Now I know a lot of you are going to say,, "it was awfull", and while you are right, I miss it cause it was fun.
When done right, you could do a lot of damage and supprise the hell out people.
But, not holding my breath any..
For some reason i always thought the old system was like loading a holy shotgun and popping off judgment!! i miss the seal of command days.
I play shockadin now. And I do pretty alright on the way up so far. The 85-89 bracket is a fun up hill battle. Well see what happens at 90.
As far as you suggestions I think yeah, for it to be more mass playable or like fitted into the Wow system of checks and balances yeah you need some of those.
All in all I get by with defensive cooldowns and the 4 major abilities.
Denoucne, Holy Raidaince Holy shock and Harsh words.
as far as procing a free 3x Wog (harsh words)
In my experience I seem to see more procs of DP when I have 3+ holy power, specifically when I have 5. But I do not know if this is because it is the way it works, or just what I have seen. Is there an internal cooldown? Because maybe it is relative to the time it would take to build 3+ holy power and so its just a coincidence that I see it proc when I have 3, rather then it being because I have 3.
I have seem to see it proc especially in this situation/rotation. I build up to 3 Holy Power then for the last 2 I will specifically use Holy Raidiance then Holy Shock and trigger a the 3HP WoG (possible up to 4 times in a row Max with DP strings), then another Holy Radiance to trigger a Good crit with a Holy Shock followed by a 3x WOG (or more), then HR - HS - 3HP WOG(x4). Then I have no more holy power. 5 - 3 + 2 - 3 + 2 -3 = 0. It procs at least 1 by the time I get to zero everytime I run it. I ran this once and it proced 2 times. 2/9 = 22% of holy power spent. +/-3% for my small sampling and it seems about right with the 25% of the time. once right off the bat and then again on the last 3. I ran it 2 more times and it procced 2 more times each full rotation.
9 total holy power for 3 3xWoG payed vs 9 Hp for 9 weaker WoG.
By Contrast for 9 single WoGs it I used this rotation. HR, Wog, HS, Wog, HR, Wog, Hs Wog HR, Wog, HS, Wog, HR, Wog, Hs Wog HR, Wog, HS. 9 holy power for 9 1xWoG
I ran this 3 times in a row (27 holy power) and it proced a total of 6 times, again 22% of holy power spent. However, this one have a string of 4 procs, then another string of 2 procs. More bursty, versus more controlled above.
The string procs are uncontrollable, but its in this burst that Shockadins Shines!!
EDIT --- in another post I was looking at Someone said that 1 hp gives you an additional 8% to proc DP and 2 gives you 16% and 3 gives you the 25% from the tool tip, so its better to build 2-3 for a higher Harsh words then trying to fish for procs.
Also The way I play is sort of running in and out of melee range and kitting people, keeping them at range for denounce but then trying to get a Crusader strike off if they are coming in to close. Also using judgement for a speed buff and slow debuff and putting up censure, wich at 5 stacks is a pretty nice dot to keep up. With Holy Shock, Harsh words and more Denouncing, they all die eventually
Currently, shockadins are not what they used to be. The main purpose of playing holy is to heal, and I found that by doing just a few healing spells here and there I am aple to generate more holy power for harsh words to do more dmg. and also keeping up the few people around me tends to lead to a win for horde (at least where I am playing D).
I wish Holy was able to play more like a Disc priest for Healing through dmg however. I really like playing as disc now.
Edited by Loktios on 2/15/2013 2:16 PM PST
Tbh, I really like the set up they have. I mainly heal, but
This is likely going to be the downfall of your argument. Yes, warlocks are sub-par tanks with the right glyphs and talents. Holy paladins can DPS to the extent of a Disc priest with the right glyphs and talents. I have set up 2 Holy specs, mainly because I don't want to carry 2 sets of gear around just to go out and do dailies, and I think this may be the intention Blizz had. All the other healing classes can technically quest in the same gear they would use for healing (priest = Shadow/ Disc, Druid = Balance, Shaman = Elem, Monk = Mistweaver can still DPS) but paladins were basically forced to carry around another bag of gear unless they were ok with spending 5mins to kill one mob.
And it works! If I'm taking on one mob, I don't take damage. Burden of Guilt and Long arm of the law paired up pretty much means I am running faster while my enemy is running slower. Casting justice with SoV on still stacks a DoT on them, and then I just HS, Exoc, and WoG them to death. I don't expect to be top DPS, and as of right now, I don't want to. I like having my healing spells. If Blizz wants to start on making 4th specs, I'd be ok with a shockadin spec put into play while sacraficing this caster specs healing like they would any caster class.
That's a good point. However, I do think, at least from a gearing standpoint, it would be better fit for a paladin; there are so many intellect cloth users already and only holy paladins on intellect plate. I think I may have mentioned it in a comment above that they could try to give a shockadin incentive to be closer to the target. Not something required, as then it just turns into an alternate version of Ret, but maybe to get holy power with crusader strike or simply a passive that boosts their damage if they are within 20 yards of the target or something. Not the best options, but I could agree that giving them incentive to be closer to the target would be a good thing as long as it doesn't turn the spec into Ret v2. If done correctly this would make it feel more like a paladin spec as opposed to a priest spec.
I have set up 2 Holy specs, mainly because I don't want to carry 2 sets of gear around just to go out and do dailies, and I think this may be the intention Blizz had. All the other healing classes can technically quest in the same gear they would use for healing (priest = Shadow/ Disc, Druid = Balance, Shaman = Elem, Monk = Mistweaver can still DPS) but paladins were basically forced to carry around another bag of gear unless they were ok with spending 5mins to kill one mob.
On this matter, I don't disagree that that may have been the intention, but in all honestly, that does not mean it can't be turned into more. You like your heals? Play Holy. If you want to play as ranged dps as a paladin, you would still have heals, just like any hybrid, and that would be more than enough to keep you alive for questing. As far the mention about the warlock tanking option; the simple truth is that warlocks tanking is far more viable in a raid setting than bringing a shockadin. I know at least one warlock on my server has tanked stone guard (intentionally) on normal mode. Granted they can't do most fights due to the lack of a real taunt, as far as taking the hits and keeping aggro, they are still more viable than a current shockadin. (And I wouldn't be against a warlock tank spec either)
Sorry for posting 2 days after the last post, I saw a thread in general about shockadins and remembered this. I figured the thread had mostly died, but someone brought it up from the depths of page whatever it was on.
Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.
Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.
Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.