Wait for me please.

90 Draenei Priest
9355
Healer should be in front of the group. It doesn't make much sense from a role playing perspective, but this is a game with pre-determined rules and behaviours, and it is more often than not both safe and indeed optimal for a healer to be in front.

How can a tank run away from you if he has to run toward you to pull more mobs?

Why should you have to run forward to be in healing range for the next group of mobs when you can end the current group of mobs from a position immediately relevant to the next group of mobs?

As a demonstration, I offer you a 2 minute clip of otherwise unremarkable footage from my last dungeon run demonstrating the point:
http://youtu.be/X9hgBjaj-xA

(Moving to a position immediately ahead of the tank and melee also makes Divine Star pretty easy to use as demonstrated at 2:00. You barely have to think about position at all to at least hit: yourself, tank, melee, at least 1 ranged)
Reply Quote
96 Human Priest
4510
01/25/2013 12:57 PMPosted by Calamai
Calamai - I wouldn't worry about getting kicked so you can feel more comfortable if you're new, etc. It's better to be placed into a new group than to be insecure in your current one. I get that not everyone thinks the same, but that's just my opinion on the matter.


Oh I totally agree with that, it's just what I've run into when I see people say they are new to a 5 man. I typically try to wrangle a tanking friend to go with me so I can learn to heal the place at least once with a competent tank.

It is really hard being either a tank or healer and solo queuing for stuff you don't know. To be honest, on my Pally (the current one I've had for years) I still get little butterflies queuing on her as tank even when I know the place well. DPS is less stressful of course, you can blend more in the background but it's still hard to say "I don't know this" to anyone, let alone a group of strangers who may or may not be nice.

Which is part of the problem here - not feeling like one can speak up and say - hey I need a sec or being completely ignored or worse put down when they do.


Actually, you'd be surprised at how much you can wing. I say this b/c I returned to the game after 5.1 dropped after skipping all of Cata, so I went into basically every 5-man blind. Had no clue about the boss or trash mechanics and it became apparent during my first run that MoP healing was almost nothing like WotLK healing.

I didn't say a word about being new or whatnot b/c I had the fear that you did. I sucked it up and jumped straight in. Took me about two runs before I found a comfortable rotation (and another run before I discovered the joys of Atonement). I winged every boss by just keeping to the general rules of "don't stand in the bad stuff" and "if everyone else is running in a certain direction, you might wanna follow them." This is where I find healing a bit less stressful than DPS b/c I technically don't need to know every single intricate detail of every encounter. It doesn't matter if there are adds or if there are barrels running around that can be hopped onto or whatnot; my job remains the same - make sure those health bars never reach zero.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Priest
13930
01/25/2013 02:51 AMPosted by Cessie
And I hope you didn't mean for that comment to come across as spiteful, but it kinda did.


May I ask how that sounds at all spiteful?

Some people have legitimate reasons for playing a slower pace than the average gamer. I've played with gamers who have broken bones, who are para/quadriplegic (my brother is quad, in fact), who have motor control issues, who have mental disorders, etc. I've also been in dungeons with very young (ie: 4-7 yr old) gamers.

I listed just about every reason any gamer has to be slower than normal:

a. Learning a new role.
b. Very low gear level.
c. Physical/mental disability/disadvantage
d. Very young.

It's worth acknowledging, too, that I've met players in each of these categories who don't use whatever disadvantage they have as an excuse. I've met many who preface runs with a disclaimer. (One of my most memorable was a tank in BC who had a macro ready saying that he'd recently broken his collarbone and needed an extra few seconds to establish threat.)

I do this, even though a little cost to my mana, its easier to tick back up out of combat...correct? Plus its still active when they start.

Its not like a button masher either, I actually have to think and pay attention to everyone and my surroundings. I like to be in a good position.

If I am blowing through instances, what I am learning? How to spam FH and PW: S the whole match draining my mana? Pulling aggro off the tank. These are not tactics I want to bring into endgame. So I learn now.


What I'm questioning is whether you're just dropping Sanctuary and then switching to Serenity, or whether you're actually sitting in Sanctuary regularly.

"Blowing" through instances can actually be a good exercise in learning to maximize your throughput while minimizing your mana expenditure. It's definitely a tossed-in-the-deep-end sort of immersion, but sometimes the best method of learning is trial by fire.
Edited by Elethia on 1/26/2013 12:17 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
4605
I find everyone generally wants to move along at a good clip. I use Angelic Feathers as a talent instead of Body and Soul as the tanks generally don't need speed boosts, I rarely use PW;Shield as a Holy P at levels 85-90 ( where mana starts to be an issue for us ), and I use it to catch up to the tank if he's rushing ahead ( allowed me to save quite a few tanks with Guardian Spirit in the nick of time).
Reply Quote
100 Undead Rogue
13025
01/26/2013 12:01 PMPosted by Elethia
And I hope you didn't mean for that comment to come across as spiteful, but it kinda did.


May I ask how that sounds at all spiteful?

Some people have legitimate reasons for playing a slower pace than the average gamer. I've played with gamers who have broken bones, who are para/quadriplegic (my brother is quad, in fact), who have motor control issues, who have mental disorders, etc. I've also been in dungeons with very young (ie: 4-7 yr old) gamers.

I listed just about every reason any gamer has to be slower than normal:

a. Learning a new role.
b. Very low gear level.
c. Physical/mental disability/disadvantage
d. Very young.

It's worth acknowledging, too, that I've met players in each of these categories who don't use whatever disadvantage they have as an excuse. I've met many who preface runs with a disclaimer. (One of my most memorable was a tank in BC who had a macro ready saying that he'd recently broken his collarbone and needed an extra few seconds to establish threat.)

I do this, even though a little cost to my mana, its easier to tick back up out of combat...correct? Plus its still active when they start.

Its not like a button masher either, I actually have to think and pay attention to everyone and my surroundings. I like to be in a good position.

If I am blowing through instances, what I am learning? How to spam FH and PW: S the whole match draining my mana? Pulling aggro off the tank. These are not tactics I want to bring into endgame. So I learn now.


What I'm questioning is whether you're just dropping Sanctuary and then switching to Serenity, or whether you're actually sitting in Sanctuary regularly.

"Blowing" through instances can actually be a good exercise in learning to maximize your throughput while minimizing your mana expenditure. It's definitely a tossed-in-the-deep-end sort of immersion, but sometimes the best method of learning is trial by fire.


Isnt that illegal?
Reply Quote
87 Blood Elf Priest
1870
I've adopted a simple stratedgy for dealing with this, as I too, have been learning my roll as a healer and learning the game.

I will care about the quality of the run about as much as everyone else. If the tank is way undergeared and pulling way too much, and then acts like it's my fault, I explain the situation and leave it at that. If he then does it AGAIN, I'll drop group. I don't need to wipe over and over, which in the interest of time, doesnt' make much sense.

However, when a tank pulls too much and says my bad, or a DPS coughs it up that they DID bring that pat over to us--I'm ok with it. Things happen.

And most importantly, if I'm falling behind because I'm undergeared (I usually let people know that I'm lacking mana-regen/spirit or I do't have any food on hand)-- I tell it like it is.

I'm man enough to admit my own goof ups. BTW-- spamming flash heal and shiels is extremely mana-heavy.

I do better with groups that insist on dying to buble the tank, set up the sanctuary, and start prayer of healing, and circle of healing. I'll try to stack my procs on the tank (or whoever is taking heavy dmg) with a flash heal/greater heal combo. When my santuary drops off, I put the lightspring (glyphed) up on santuary' CD. This gives me a nice blanket of healing that puts less stress on me as I try to single target heal the tank and dps who are getting hit hard.

I use my desperate prayer as often as I can, noting the long CD, when I'm with groups that are "doing it wrong". That way I can focus my other instant heals on other people.

Good luck.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
0
Healer should be in front of the group. It doesn't make much sense from a role playing perspective, but this is a game with pre-determined rules and behaviours, and it is more often than not both safe and indeed optimal for a healer to be in front.

How can a tank run away from you if he has to run toward you to pull more mobs?

Why should you have to run forward to be in healing range for the next group of mobs when you can end the current group of mobs from a position immediately relevant to the next group of mobs?

As a demonstration, I offer you a 2 minute clip of otherwise unremarkable footage from my last dungeon run demonstrating the point:
http://youtu.be/X9hgBjaj-xA

(Moving to a position immediately ahead of the tank and melee also makes Divine Star pretty easy to use as demonstrated at 2:00. You barely have to think about position at all to at least hit: yourself, tank, melee, at least 1 ranged)


I can think of a couple of good reasons why not -

1) it puts me out there where I'm at risk of pulling mobs unintentionally, especially if I'm in a fight that requires me to move, or if I'm feared or otherwise mind-controlled.

2) I still have to move back to the where the mobs were downed to loot, so why take an unnecessary risk by moving beyond the fight when I can just as easily be out of melee range behind the group rather than in front?

<S>
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/27/2013 07:56 AMPosted by Repatriate
Isnt that illegal?


Pretty sure it's not illegal. It's also not against the game's ToS, as long as their parents are with them. A surprising amount of people play WoW with their kids.
Reply Quote
87 Pandaren Priest
5155
I've somewhat re-evaluated by opinion on this. I definitely think that a tank should only go as fast as their skill and gear can handle. What I mean is, if you're a squishy or inexperienced tank, it's probably not a great idea to go sprinting off collecting hundreds of mobs and then LOSing me.

I don't have a problem with a skilled/experienced tank who knows what they're doing going fast. Even if it's occasionally irritating, I'll deal with it. But when a very squishy or inexperienced tank tries to go super fast and ends up making my job a nightmare trying to keep them alive, that's when I lose patience. And I hate to let people die, so I usually suffer through it, even if they seem to be on a suicide mission the entire instance.
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
12950
This is all sitting around speculating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin: how many blues, how many greens does one have to have before it is ok for the tank to be a *@@@*@**.

I mean, who cares?

If the healer wants to take a second to drink. Or to loot. Or to place a lightspring. *That is NORMAL*

And advice to the contrary, i.e., "L2 KEEP UP N00B" is just being a sycophant apologist for poor tank behavior.


I don't get it. If something actually becomes such a widespread problem for someone that they have to make a post about it on the forums, then it's probably happened more than once. In fact, I'm willing to bet it happens all the time.

It's obvious this guy didn't just get out of instance#4000 with speedy tank#1 and get upset enough to make a thread like this.

You say it's normal to want to have mana so you can heal... fine, I already said that makes sense. But that shouldn't be happening all the time this expansion, especially in 85-90 normals.

Very rarely have I seen this "poor tank behavior" that healers seem to speak of so commonly on the forums. I actually have no idea how some situations even happen. Take, for instance, the post you made on page 1... you talk about tanks going 2 rooms ahead of everyone. Maybe you can explain that one to me, because I feel like I'd have to go AFK for that to even happen.

I don't actually care if people have bad gear, are slower in general, etc... all of that is fixable by communicating at the start of the instance. The point I'm trying to make in this thread is it's not always someone else's fault. Healers seem to be the role that blames other people the most because they don't want to believe it's their fault. Just the trend I've been noticing recently and I hate it when people refuse to admit that it might be a flaw of their own.


Lol. Your "arrogance" astounds me. Most of the time the healer is the one taking the blame. Especially in these situations where the tank obviously under-estimates how much he needs a healer or how much mana the healer really needs in order to handle those 3 mobs he pulled.

Point is the OP is levelling. She is NOT geared in gear way above the instances level. She's not cruising around in a heroic with 486 gear after running it for the 100th time; and being used to running it and progressively going from 430 gear or what have you and noticing how easy it is now that her gear is way beyond what the dungeon really takes; she's in greens and blues.

It's obvious this isn't happening all the time, but even I have found this happens sometimes in dungeons, even heroics. I'm not geared the best of course, but I do cruise through in almost every heroic. No one says a word, everyone knows what to do, tank pulls quick and fast, no problem. But there are those times where the DPS stands in fire and I burn through my mana keeping them up cause I don't want to slow-down and rez them. And I notice that while I took 5 seconds to drink the tank is already around the next corner pulling the mobs and almost dead by the time I realize and get to him. Heck, he's off on the next mob before I can even type, "Mana please." or "I need to drink."

It's just the fact that IF this happens, and WHEN this happens, AND IF it's NOT the healers fault (or the OP's fault in this case) it should be noted and corrected. All the OP should have to do is say, "Please wait." And the tank/group should acknowledge this and kindly wait, or slow down in general.

Like I said, there's plenty of good groups, but I've seen groups just like the OP has said and while we're normally fine there have been instances where we've wiped due to me coming into the fight late and with 60% mana. Especially since those kind of groups have the kind of people who don't know to stand out of stuff, move out of stuff, or just avoid things that are easy to avoid.
Edited by Aleaina on 1/29/2013 8:27 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
15835
i feel like the average reading comprehension level on these forums is less than mine when i was in third grade, oh well.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
3270
I like myself a quick-paced dungeon, mostly because I don't, as a "social" player, have time to be sitting around waiting and twiddling my thumbs. If I have adequate mana, then by all means, I see no reason not to go rushing into it - I attempt to keep Rejuvenation and LB on the tank at all times, which should help if they get hit hard in a pull when I'm not around. Nevertheless, I've only done 10 heroics at the most, and all have gone pretty smoothly. Most of them are with tanks that think they can consecutively pull groups of mobs, or there are situations where the DPS begins a pull to speed it up, or accidental circumstances where mobs are pulled. Mostly, you pull up fine even when you're close to OOM. If the tank, or the DPS, can't or does not look at your mana pool to discover that you're less than 30% before a consecutive pull, and they go ahead and pull, then you hope to get there in time to keep them up and try to conserve your mana. If you wipe, you tell them it's their fault for not waiting for your mana. If you don't wipe, tell them you need mana because they obviously didn't observe your mana pool before the last fight, so why would they check again if you don't wipe?

I do, however, recommend mana potions. They're invaluable when you get a tank or a DPS who thinks "this is a 10 minute Heroic, let's get it done in 5 minutes".
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
6755
tanks don't wait since they don't want to be there,most are fully geared and only run heroics when they need some vp for a upgrade or item, or they feel like contributing. so they will try to get it done as fast possible since they done the place over 30 times.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
8865
01/24/2013 03:43 AMPosted by Noxnzee
try keeping up, i get upset when healers can't keep up with me.

Anytime I ask a tank to slow down please and get "Keep up" in reply, I drop immediately. I mean immediately. Whatever happened to the tank and healer working together? On my tank, I always keep an eye on my healer and adjust my speed around him. On my healer, I expect the same courtesy.

Because that's what it is: common courtesy.

I don't like feeling rushed. I don't like when a tank is, literally, halfway to the next pull before the current mobs are even dead. This happens with frequency, and now I have to heal a tank who's getting hit in his backside which means he's getting hit harder. Is that what an earlier poster was referring to as "current pace"? Is that really how people think pulls should just go? If it is, I don't want any part of PUGs, which is a shame since I am very much a social gamer and even enjoy LFD from time to time (I find that usually, as long as I am cheery and polite, my group will be too... usually).

Most of the time, pull speed is fine, but every so often I get a tank like that where I just can't keep up no matter how hard I try and I spend the entire dungeon running around like I'm chasing a toddler who doesn't want to take their medicine. Taking convoluted shortcuts to skip as much trash as possible and getting mad at me that I don't know their shortcut. You can say I'm the problem, but again, it all boils down to common courtesy and using a little communication.

As a demonstration, I offer you a 2 minute clip of otherwise unremarkable footage from my last dungeon run demonstrating the point:
http://youtu.be/X9hgBjaj-xA

Speaking from a tanking perspective, that would make me nervous in a PUG. Why? I don't know you and I don't trust you, no offense, sorry. If someone was constantly running ahead of me, I would assume the worst and be prepared for buttpulls. I would also kindly request that they not do so (in whispers).
Edited by Garofalo on 1/30/2013 10:05 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
10190
01/29/2013 06:25 PMPosted by Ítachí
tanks don't wait since they don't want to be there,most are fully geared and only run heroics when they need some vp for a upgrade or item, or they feel like contributing. so they will try to get it done as fast possible since they done the place over 30 times.


And the rest of us running it for the 30th time want to be there more somehow?

Everyone would like to just get through it, collect our stuff and leave. At the same time it's an error to assume the random PuG healer can keep up with insane pulls. On top of that, I have gotten tanks that do think they're all that but really aren't. Not everyone is geared in LFD, including tanks and assuming a group can keep up to your pace is what causes deaths regardless of what roll you play.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Druid
10545
I leveled through Pandaria via dungeon healing and continued to do mostly dungeons for my first couple days at 90.

It bothers me when a tank who isn't very good (such as this one I had once who was in rather impressive PVP gear, bragged about his PVP experience, and said it was his second time tanking. Or the several who were just... bad) rushes through the dungeon, never noticing if any DPS are actually around him or if I'm two rooms and a hallway away drinking 'cause he soaked up all my mana. These same tanks usually let four mobs cling to me and beat my health down so I end up sacrificing damage dealers.
I've been in groups where all the right timed mana pots, innervates, etc did little to help. That's a defeating and frustrating feeling. Granted, these groups probably only made up 20 or so percent of my runs, but that's still too many imo.

Dungeons really don't need to be completed in 10 minutes. It's okay. The dungeon doesn't need to be completed in three giant pulls. Take a moment to say hello and enjoy the wonderful scenery, music, voice acting, etc.

I haven't actually run a dungeon since gearing up more, but when I do again (I need to replace my belt and such), if there's some no-brain tank who is completely noncognizant of her surroundings trying to rush it, I will drop.
Edited by Aloom on 1/31/2013 11:28 AM PST
Reply Quote
I dont have a problem with going fast (this is my 3rd healer), I just cant stand when tanks just dont pay attention to what is going on around them. They will pull a group of mobs that consist of casters and melee, and will just keep running as they leave the casters behind.

So what do you do? Should I stroke the ego of the tank and only heal him, or do I stay behind and help the rest of the group who is cleaning up after the tank leaves a mess?

I just dont understand why it is always this combative struggle between healers and tanks these days. Healing used to be a lot of fun, but now it can get pretty annoying.
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Druid
9540
I dont have a problem with going fast (this is my 3rd healer), I just cant stand when tanks just dont pay attention to what is going on around them. They will pull a group of mobs that consist of casters and melee, and will just keep running as they leave the casters behind.

So what do you do? Should I stroke the ego of the tank and only heal him, or do I stay behind and help the rest of the group who is cleaning up after the tank leaves a mess?

I just dont understand why it is always this combative struggle between healers and tanks these days. Healing used to be a lot of fun, but now it can get pretty annoying.


You should do the smart thing and LoS the casters somewhere near the tank. As someone who only plays tanks and healers, theres nothing I hate more than morons who run away from the tank when theyre getting trucked. You literally hurt your own cause.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
I dont have a problem with going fast (this is my 3rd healer), I just cant stand when tanks just dont pay attention to what is going on around them. They will pull a group of mobs that consist of casters and melee, and will just keep running as they leave the casters behind.

So what do you do? Should I stroke the ego of the tank and only heal him, or do I stay behind and help the rest of the group who is cleaning up after the tank leaves a mess?

I just dont understand why it is always this combative struggle between healers and tanks these days. Healing used to be a lot of fun, but now it can get pretty annoying.


You should do the smart thing and LoS the casters somewhere near the tank. As someone who only plays tanks and healers, theres nothing I hate more than morons who run away from the tank when theyre getting trucked. You literally hurt your own cause.


It's tough to LOS casters to a tank when the tank has left no convenient spots right next to him/her to LOS them to. This happens more often than you think.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]