10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Blood Elf Hunter
9715
I'm not a fan of further RNG with loot drops, but a lot of people seem to like the idea sooo /shrug.
90 Troll Death Knight
15685
I like the idea of normal Thunderforged to keep things interesting, but the heroic Thunderforged just seems like an invitation to loot drama as people fight over an upgraded BiS that probably won't drop again. Can Thunderforged be upgraded through valor (come patch 5.3, of course, if we get there) just like regular gear, or is it just a piece that drops at 2/2? The latter sounds preferable as a bonus, more along the lines of saving valor instead of getting a permanently better item.
90 Pandaren Hunter
12500
Reliance on RNG (in the form of possible better item drops) does not offer a solution to the issues 25s currently face.

I can speak from experience on this having done MV LFR and MV normal every week since they both came out, and ToES LFR every week since that came out. I have also used all my elder charms in MV and/or ToES in both normal and LFR. I have never received a ranged weapon from any of those rolls- nor has a single ranged weapon ever dropped in my guild kills on normal MV. That is, at least in terms of rolls, a whole lotta rolls happening on a weekly basis. RNG at its worst I would assume.

Reliance on RNG is not going to solve any issues 25s currently face.

The issue is not a gear disparity- the issue is one of logistics and orgnization. There simply isn't any incentive to raid in 25 when encounters are tuned in such a way that they are amazingly easier on 10 than they are on 25.

Part of the issue is the learning curve. 25 players must learn an encounter compared to just 10- but in such a case a possibility of better loot or the chance for more better loot is not going to serve as incentive.

The only circumstance in which better loot would serve as an incentive is if it dropped with greater frequency on 25 or if there was somewhat of a guaranteed piece each time a boss was downed.

If the drop chance was not great or if there was not at least a guaranteed piece dropping in 25 then over the course of time 10s would still get the majority of the gear upgrades since in most (if not all cases) they can quickly and consistently down more bosses per raid cycle than most normal (non-hardcore) 25s. Ultimately such a situation would turn this proposed "band aid solution" into another nail in the coffin of 25 man raiding.
90 Human Warrior
10500
01/23/2013 09:20 AMPosted by Vodkaparty
You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502


Can I have my 300K back from the BMAH buying 502 heroic level items that I assumed would be better than LFR gear?


lol right
90 Draenei Mage
13780


This! Just accept the consequences were bad for the decision you made, and revert them back. You've already fixed it elsewhere because of "player demand". Do it here, too!


Yeah and many are calling that people would be forced to do 25 man raids. it isn't just one poster. There are several here saying that.


It did before and would do again. It is not the answer, gear is not the answer as the best thing it will do is make people feel they are now forced to do something they really don't want to do. Blizzard may say it is a choice but when there is one path to max a character out many will pick it simply for that rather then enjoyment.

IE: Many mages prefer fire heavily over arcane (myself included) but we certainly are not fire in raids right now because it is not the best.

Other rewards need to be presented rather than simply gear. I have stated already in an earlier post that a simple one would be achievements (at least end bosses including different titles) and achievement mounts. This would give a clear and visible distinction between the raids while not adding more problems that simply do not need to be in the game.
Edited by Lothlan on 1/23/2013 10:47 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
12110
TYPICAL 25M RAIDER - "Rewards us for guild management logistics, not challenging raid mechanics"

TYPICAL 10M RAIDER - "Dont punish us for choosing more challenging content over mass recruiting"

One seems more honorable to me.
90 Pandaren Monk
11225


This! Just accept the consequences were bad for the decision you made, and revert them back. You've already fixed it elsewhere because of "player demand". Do it here, too!


Yeah and many are calling that people would be forced to do 25 man raids. it isn't just one poster. There are several here saying that.


This new system will be Pre-Cata Light™. Players who can do 25m raids will have higher ilvl gear, for a while. This will be until 10m RNG can catch up. It won't be long before 10m raids complain about this ilvl imbalance, as small as it may be, and the system reverts. I feel as though we should either just fully go back to Pre-Cata, or drop 25m for good. That's just the way things are going. I don't think there is enough incentive to keep those guilds alive for much longer. This new system lets RNG control too much. I mentioned earlier at the potential problems it just adds for officers and guild leaders.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
13315
Well guess I am on the side of the people that do not like this idea.

Do not see any benefit to bring more to the loot table, it's only going to make the job of giving loot harder and make a living hell when it comes to make a BiS list.
But seems I am very much alone, so I'm happy for you that like this idea.
90 Human Mage
13505
TYPICAL 25M RAIDER - "Rewards us for guild management logistics, not challenging raid mechanics"

TYPICAL 10M RAIDER - "Dont punish us for choosing more challenging content over mass recruiting"

One seems more honorable to me.


Seems like lies.
90 Gnome Mage
11465
My feedback summarized: When you do anything that rewards 25s in loot better than 10s, it isn't fair and I don't like it. Find some other mechanism to reward 25s--try vanity items or gold. Not loot.

I'd want to know the difference in percentages of the chance to drop between 10/25 for thunderforged before i gauge my irritation. I'm a little mad as a reflex that 25's will get a higher drop rate--we do 10's now for the reasons you identified (too hard to wrangle 25 people), but it would irritate me greatly to feel like i'm missing something by not doing 25s--otherwise, I wouldn't have made the change.

I felt this a bit with the dragonwrath legendary questline (took WAY too long for 10 mans to acquire or too fast for 25s--you had 25s finishing their 3rd legendary and well on the way to their 4th and 5th before 10s got their first.) Because loot is often a primary motivator for raiders (and and gives a progression advantage), it is very frustrating to get less for putting in the same work (holding aside that yes, officers do have to work harder in 25s to find more people--the average 10 man raider works just as hard as the average 25 man raider to down a boss and we deserve no less in compensation).

Giving 25's superior loot gives them a progression advantage as well (read, "Bad").
90 Blood Elf Priest
12110


Yeah and many are calling that people would be forced to do 25 man raids. it isn't just one poster. There are several here saying that.


It did before and would do again. It is not the answer, gear is not the answer as the best thing it will do is make people feel they are now forced to do something they really don't want to do. Blizzard may say it is a choice but when there is one path to max a character out many will pick it simply for that rather then enjoyment.

IE: Many mages prefer fire heavily over arcane (myself included) but we certainly are not fire in raids right now because it is not the best.

Other rewards need to be presented rather than simply gear. I have stated already in this post that a simple one would be achievements (at least end bosses including different titles) and achievement mounts. This would give a clear and visible distinction between the raids while not adding more problems that simply do not need to be in the game.


Completely agree with this.
90 Human Warrior
8930
Solution to 10 man content being more popular than 25 man content:

Make 25 man content the only content. WoW was much more epic before 10 man raids were introduced.

Lfr and heroics still being in the game of course.
90 Pandaren Monk
18545
As a GM, RL, and officer of fairly organized, hardcore and progression minded guilds since BC til the present, I can give you my unique experience, having done both 25m and 10m guilds from the top, being quite experienced with the politics involved in running a guild of any type.

As people have been saying time and again, the officers (and let's face it, every guild has extraneous officers, there's only the handful who make the 'real' decisions) always take the blame with loot drama.

Running 25mans, while arguably a bit easier to actually raid lead [depending on boss of course, but generally speaking, from a purely RL point of view, 25s are easier], are infinitely more difficult from a logistics and human resources point of view. I swear I, and probably the majority of other 25m raid leaders/officers, spend more time holding hands and calming down the masses than spending actual time figuring out how to kill bosses.

This proposed system will just aggravate the problem on both ends. You will get all sorts of point hoarding on the 25 man (why ask for an item when the TF version is for sure gonna drop next week and that idiot holy pally is gonna get the mace if I take the normal this week). You will have all sorts of butt hurt people (I can't believe so and so got both TF and normal).

And then what about the gray areas? Example: as a brewmaster monk, one of the best trinkets for us is the [item="bottle of infinite stars" /]. Because it's a bigger upgrade to dps, say it drops normal. I pass to hunter, then rogue. A week or two pass, and we get caster drops. Then the TF version drops. A week or two pass. Well, we're cutting close to enrage timers. I pass to rogue, then hunter. A couple weeks later, we're doing it heroic, and the heroic version drops. Again new enrage timers, I pass to them. A few weeks later, the Heroic TF drops, and I continue passing.

Because you see, in all cases, it *IS* a bigger upgrade overall for them, and I have some other choices. But you can see how after 2 or 3 months of seeing it drop, and doing the "right" thing for the raid, means I get to see up to 8 of them drop before I even get one. You can say, "well why don't you take one?" But that's the point, if I was selfish and only thought of myself, I would. But when it is a bigger upgrade for the raid, I wouldn't. But that doesn't make it any less painful for me.

This is just one example, it can happen with any number of classes/roles, for any number of items. Throw in alt roles [after all, you have to outfit your flex healer/dps, or flex tank/dps with pretty good items]. Do you give a normal to TF upgrade to main specs, or do you give the TF version to the secondary spec?

These are not questions easily answered. These are, in fact, questions made much more difficult due to increased complexity.

I for one, as little as it is worth, say this is one of the absolutely worst ideas Blizzard has come up with.
Edited by Kungfayze on 1/23/2013 10:48 AM PST
85 Human Death Knight
11815
TYPICAL 25M RAIDER - "Rewards us for guild management logistics, not challenging raid mechanics"

TYPICAL 10M RAIDER - "Dont punish us for choosing more challenging content over mass recruiting"

One seems more honorable to me.


5/16 heroic.
90 Troll Druid
13365
This will cause even more of a logistical nightmare for 25m guilds.

All those bosses on farm that you didn't feel bad letting an alt or recruit jump in for will now be protected by your main raiders in hopes that a thunderforged piece will drop!
90 Orc Shaman
HC
16485
You already slap 10 man guilds in the face by dropping more gear in 25 man and now you increase the drop rate of thunderforged gear? It was bad enough when 25 man FL got their legendaries faster than 10 man and now you want to go down that road again?

Here's a suggestion, make 10 man boss kills drop 5 pieces of loot and even out the distribution and gearing disadvantage between the two.


2/10=5/25 not 2/10<5/25 (for per boss fight) and while 32/160<83/400 (counting the 1 extra from each end boss in the current tier) the difference is 0.75% not that big.


It has more to do with the people who can use the loot. There is a reason between equally progressed guilds 25m had a higher item level on average than 10m. More loot given, less loot put to waste.

In a 25m the raiders don't do anything more than the raiders in 10m, but the officers do miles more in terms of logistics and all this is going to do in your average guild is put more work on those officers. Gj.
Edited by Sensations on 1/23/2013 10:50 AM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
11225
TYPICAL 25M RAIDER - "Rewards us for guild management logistics, not challenging raid mechanics"

TYPICAL 10M RAIDER - "Dont punish us for choosing more challenging content over mass recruiting"

One seems more honorable to me.


That's a bias comment if I ever saw one. I don't think you have ever really been apart of 25m to know how much difficulty is involved. LFR is a joke. Every little mechanic people can do in 10m is more difficult in 25m because odds are, not all 25 people will get it right every time. You rely on less people to do the right thing in 10m. Mass recruiting is not an option to fill and run 25m. Most people won't even bother joining a guild running that size anymore. Ten people are a LOT easier to manage than 25. Think of the second boss in HoF. You have to spread out, and colapse, AND dodge the tornadoes. Now, get 25 players to do that in the same space 10 people do.. it's not easy by any means.
90 Orc Warlock
10530
Will the new replacement for elder charms give a chance at Thunderforged items as well?
90 Troll Mage
12125
I wish you would bring back the split lockouts while keeping the loot tables equivalent.

so people can clear with their guild 10m, and pug out a 25m. (or 25m guild then splits/pugs 10m)

loved that in Wrath.
Edited by Taggthemage on 1/23/2013 10:51 AM PST
80 Draenei Shaman
13460
If this idea does actually make it through the fires please consider making it a token-based upgrade system instead so that taking the non-amazing item doesn't ever feel like a mistake.
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