10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Human Warrior
8930
Also, no more of this normal vs heroic mode. Some bosses should be hard and feel epic. There was no normal mode illidan for a reason.
90 Human Mage
13505
Solution to 10 man content being more popular than 25 man content:

Make 25 man content the only content. WoW was much more epic before 10 man raids were introduced.

Lfr and heroics still being in the game of course.


No...just no! That's a horrible thing.

Also, no more of this normal vs heroic mode. Some bosses should be hard and feel epic. There was no normal mode illidan for a reason.


You are living in the past. We develop content that no one else can see. There should be 10 man raids. Your idea of epic may not match to my own vision of epic as for others and shouldn't force it onto others.
Edited by Valius on 1/23/2013 10:50 AM PST
100 Blood Elf Priest
13165
As a GM, RL, and officer of fairly organized, hardcore and progression minded guilds since BC til the present, I can give you my unique experience, having done both 25m and 10m guilds from the top, being quite experienced with the politics involved in running a guild of any type.

As people have been saying time and again, the officers (and let's face it, every guild has extraneous officers, there's only the handful who make the 'real' decisions) always take the blame with loot drama.

Running 25mans, while arguably a bit easier to actually raid lead [depending on boss of course, but generally speaking, from a purely RL point of view, 25s are easier], are infinitely more difficult from a logistics and human resources point of view. I swear I, and probably the majority of other 25m raid leaders/officers, spend more time holding hands and calming down the masses than spending actual time figuring out how to kill bosses.

This proposed system will just aggravate the problem on both ends. You will get all sorts of point hoarding on the 25 man (why ask for an item when the TF version is for sure gonna drop next week and that idiot holy pally is gonna get the mace if I take the normal this week). You will have all sorts of butt hurt people (I can't believe so and so got both TF and normal).

And then what about the gray areas? Example: as a brewmaster monk, one of the best trinkets for us is the [item="bottle of infinite stars" /]. Because it's a bigger upgrade to dps, say it drops normal. I pass to hunter, then rogue. A week or two pass, and we get caster drops. Then the TF version drops. A week or two pass. Well, we're cutting close to enrage timers. I pass to rogue, then hunter. A couple weeks later, we're doing it heroic, and the heroic version drops. Again new enrage timers, I pass to them. A few weeks later, the Heroic TF drops, and I continue passing.

Because you see, in all cases, it *IS* a bigger upgrade overall for them, and I have some other choices. But you can see how after 2 or 3 months of seeing it drop, and doing the "right" thing for the raid, means I get to see up to 8 of them drop before I even get one. You can say, "well why don't you take one?" But that's the point, if I was selfish and only thought of myself, I would. But when it is a bigger upgrade for the raid, I wouldn't. But that doesn't make it any less painful for me.

This is just one example, it can happen with any number of classes/roles, for any number of items. Throw in alt roles [after all, you have to outfit your flex healer/dps, or flex tank/dps with pretty good items]. Do you give a normal to TF upgrade to main specs, or do you give the TF version to the secondary spec?

These are not questions easily answered. These are, in fact, questions made much more difficult due to increased complexity.

I for one, as little as it is worth, say this is one of the absolutely worst ideas Blizzard has come up with.


Blizzard, please listen to freedback such as this. This is exactly my experience as well.
90 Pandaren Monk
16665
This is sort of a step in the right direction but it's going to have a lot of unintended side effects of actually making the logistical issue of 25mans even more difficult. This should be a consistent thing or not at all.

Additionally, this is going to even further devalue Tier sets when we're already in a time where so many tier set bonuses are uninteresting, mediocre, or downright poorly designed. Either tier set bonuses are going to have to increase in power or you're going to see people not wearing them anymore when 'thunderforged' offset is going to be superior.

The better solution is a unified raid size. The 15man idea that was apparently discussed internally would have become a much better longterm option. At the very least, any loot difference needs to be consistent, not adding even more RNG to the mix.

EDIT: The more I think on this, the worse it is. Stop being afraid of people whining on the forums and start making decisions that offer real solutions. Between this and the complete refusal to merge low-pop realms, it's starting to make me feel like you guys are completely out of touch with what the real problems are.
Edited by Nahela on 1/23/2013 11:03 AM PST
44 Goblin Warrior
7520
As a player that is admittedly not raiding this Tier and has taken a break from Arena, I'm concerned that understanding how gearing works in end game WoW is becoming a complex machine.

2 kinds of Epics (Green is the new Purple)
Charms of Fortune item upgrades
Enchants
Gems
Reforging
Thunderforged
PvP Elite gear
Legendary paraphenelia acquisition

Maybe I'm losing my geek edge (because we geeks love technical details), but I feel like a player can't leave the game for a Patch cycle and come back without having a muddled understanding of gearing up.
85 Human Death Knight
13280
It seems a whole lot more elegant to replace thunderforged drops with 1/2 VP upgraded gear, it's not a bad system tbh. I realise the VP upgrade vendor wont be brought back until 5.3.

My concern is later on in the tier when we come across eyesores like

Boots of unreasonable enhancements
Heroic elite thunderforged
VP upgrade level 2/2
i590
etc
+1500 x
+1500 y
+1500 z
Edited by Facelol on 1/23/2013 10:55 AM PST
100 Draenei Paladin
17290
01/23/2013 09:00 AMPosted by Crithto
To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.


This is no different then just flat out raising the item level for 25 Man Raiders across the board, it gives them a clear and evident advantage in gearing over 10 Man Raiders.

This is not the right direction to try and save 25 Man Raiding. If the community really wants to raid 25 Man they'll raid 25 Man.

This is a first step back towards how things were in Wrath, please do not start back down that road.

Also in the same vein this new level of gear is just further convoluting an already bloated and ungainly gear system.
Edited by Cadenbrie on 1/23/2013 10:54 AM PST
90 Human Warrior
8930
25 mans are more epic, 40 mans even moreso. I am still nostalgic about og molten core.
90 Tauren Paladin
9960
I don't see this saving 25 mans. Vodka/Exo just merged because the player base is drying up. You have 4 or 5 super servers where everyone flocks to while the rest slowly die. An increased % to get 6 more ilvl won't cut it. Something more drastic needs to be done.
90 Human Mage
13505
01/23/2013 10:55 AMPosted by Tacolol
25 mans are more epic, 40 mans even moreso. I am still nostalgic about og molten core.


Subjective. 40 man was not epic and in 25 man raids it takes longer to get people. Your vision of epic is not law.
90 Troll Hunter
8865
This isn't going to bring back 25 man raiding. The only guilds that would consider switching for this reason are the top 100 ones, and even they are struggling to get good players because of various issues.

Less raiding is simply happening overall.
90 Goblin Priest
15475
Not sure if this has been brought up yet, but...

We traditionally will bring a few alts to some of our raids once content is on farm, in an effort to get them geared up using drops that would otherwise be DE'ed.

With this change, there's not a single main raider that would be willing to sit for someone's alt since they'll all be fishing for the Thunderforged drop. I suspect it will be highly unlikely that there'll ever be a boss where everyone in the raid has received all their Thunderforged pieces from, making bringing in alts for fun a thing of the past.
Edited by Layn on 1/23/2013 11:02 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Critho, I am wondering if you guys have considered the fact that if you tune 10 man and 25 man to the same level in this scenario, encounters will ultimately be easier for 25 man raids than for 10 man raids because they will have an overall higher ilvl of gear?

25 man raids already get more loot drops per player, but now they will also get more chances at high ilvl items?

None of this is going to actually encourage 10 mans to merge into 25 man raiding teams, but it will put 10 man guilds at a disadvantage for recruiting new team members, as well as putting them at a disadvantage for clearing the content (since 10 man teams will be unable to compete with the higher ilvl gear that 25 man teams are gaining).

Honestly, if you're going to do this, just swap us back to 10 and 25 man getting different levels of gear, and different difficulties, and remove the shared lockouts. Let's go back to Wrath. I think it's a lot more fair than the scenario you've presented us with. It's also a lot more likely to bolster 25 man raiding.
Edited by Tiriél on 1/23/2013 10:58 AM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
11225
So all this has done is stirred up the same old poo. Now, we have threads flaring up again about which size raid is more difficult. Again, 10 mans are saying this isn't fair, and 25 mans are saying this isn't good enough. I'm so sick of the arguments. Honestly, just drop the 25 mans. They have been killed, and no amount of RNG is going to bring them back. Either wipe em out, or go back to the old system and make players be responsible again.. oh wait, not an option.
90 Worgen Warlock
15020
25man already ends up with higher item level overall as you should know from available data, more loot and more people and means less loot is wasted. If 90% of your raids are playing 10man, why don't you spend your resources trying to improve their play experience instead of focusing on a dying raid difficulty.
90 Blood Elf Priest
16140
As a GM, RL, and officer of fairly organized, hardcore and progression minded guilds since BC til the present, I can give you my unique experience, having done both 25m and 10m guilds from the top, being quite experienced with the politics involved in running a guild of any type.

As people have been saying time and again, the officers (and let's face it, every guild has extraneous officers, there's only the handful who make the 'real' decisions) always take the blame with loot drama.

Running 25mans, while arguably a bit easier to actually raid lead [depending on boss of course, but generally speaking, from a purely RL point of view, 25s are easier], are infinitely more difficult from a logistics and human resources point of view. I swear I, and probably the majority of other 25m raid leaders/officers, spend more time holding hands and calming down the masses than spending actual time figuring out how to kill bosses.

This proposed system will just aggravate the problem on both ends. You will get all sorts of point hoarding on the 25 man (why ask for an item when the TF version is for sure gonna drop next week and that idiot holy pally is gonna get the mace if I take the normal this week). You will have all sorts of butt hurt people (I can't believe so and so got both TF and normal).

And then what about the gray areas? Example: as a brewmaster monk, one of the best trinkets for us is the [item="bottle of infinite stars" /]. Because it's a bigger upgrade to dps, say it drops normal. I pass to hunter, then rogue. A week or two pass, and we get caster drops. Then the TF version drops. A week or two pass. Well, we're cutting close to enrage timers. I pass to rogue, then hunter. A couple weeks later, we're doing it heroic, and the heroic version drops. Again new enrage timers, I pass to them. A few weeks later, the Heroic TF drops, and I continue passing.

Because you see, in all cases, it *IS* a bigger upgrade overall for them, and I have some other choices. But you can see how after 2 or 3 months of seeing it drop, and doing the "right" thing for the raid, means I get to see up to 8 of them drop before I even get one. You can say, "well why don't you take one?" But that's the point, if I was selfish and only thought of myself, I would. But when it is a bigger upgrade for the raid, I wouldn't. But that doesn't make it any less painful for me.

This is just one example, it can happen with any number of classes/roles, for any number of items. Throw in alt roles [after all, you have to outfit your flex healer/dps, or flex tank/dps with pretty good items]. Do you give a normal to TF upgrade to main specs, or do you give the TF version to the secondary spec?

These are not questions easily answered. These are, in fact, questions made much more difficult due to increased complexity.

I for one, as little as it is worth, say this is one of the absolutely worst ideas Blizzard has come up with.


Blizzard, please listen to freedback such as this. This is exactly my experience as well.


+4 Fix the hell officers have to go through with loot/ managing 25 different personalities, getting 25 people to the raid on time with food / flasks etc. wiping and running.. the likely hood of a person going AFK is obviously much greater in a 25m and someone not showing up is much greater in a 25m.

Some of these can be fixed clearly some cannot. Give officers and GM more to manage their raids with.
90 Goblin Rogue
12315
Sounds neat for farm bosses for sure.

Will Thunderforged be win-able with the new Elder Charms?

Will tier tokens be the same level as Thunderforged? Or are we going to see the good ol' "Should I keep my 4 set or use the Thunderforged piece?" discussion.

Sounds like a good thing for 25 mans, the gear being a flat ilvl difference in Wrath definitely wasn't fun.
- Hearthstone
97 Tauren Paladin
12485
This is a decent idea. Reward 25s, but not too much where 10s whine. Sadly, you're going to get crap from both sides regardless of what you do.
90 Pandaren Monk
14695
Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.


This idea is horrible. So how many different iterations of the same gear do you want in this game? LFR, Normal, Normal Thunderforged, Heroic, Heroic Thunderforged? I'm going to assume this also includes weapons as Thunderforged as well.

I'm a min/maxer. I am also a leaderboard player on WoL. As a min/maxer I find it extremely frustrating for a mechanic like this to be put into the game. It is horrendous and extremely RNG based. As a WoL parsing player, I find it extremely frustrating now that competition can easily be inflated by people with Thunderforged RNG LUCK ranking high already due to the fact that Gear is extremely important on how much output you can perform (this gear has moved from a skill based in BC to a gear based since WotLK).

In this patch you remove the Item Upgrade system, which this technically is the same thing but RNG. I hated the Item Upgrade system as well. It's stupid. So basically you took the Item Upgrade system out which has ZERO RNG and replaced it with an RNG /roll between 10/25 other players. That is horrible. Both ideas are horrible.

Also this gives no incentive still to run 25 other than the epic feeling. RNG is RNG. People can still get screwed over or showered on with the gifts of the heaven when it comes to RNG.

If you ask me as well, this game should NEVER have transitioned to 25/10 for the same raid instances ever. People would still be playing if it was 25's only. Don't tell me the case in BC where some low % was only raiding when it was my first expansion playing and I got to clear the majority of Sunwell when I was 16 on a server that didn't have much going for it. 10-Man should be what LFR is right now, a compromise.

After 10-Man raiding personally as a compromise until I could find a 25, the low amount of DPS checks in that bracket is horrible. They shouldn't be getting the same loot just for literally "not dieing on the encounter" (which is a joke to not do on anything after you have pulled it at least 10 times) or "find a extremely specific comp to cover all of your buffs or just roll with one missing and still kill heroic bosses" (which the latter is very true, after not running mastery/spell haste/spell dmg taken/bloodlust and still killing Heroic bosses in HoF including progression kills). They actually don't deserve an equal playing field. You can make the argument that 25 is more lenient on deaths, which it is, but it affects very hard DPS checks. There is a lot of 25 bosses where you need everyone up. That leaves the only difference as the two I outlined in the 10-man model you run currently.

Anyway I went off on a tangent there for a bit. This doesn't make 25-man more appealing to the players that are looking for an easy way out to kill things. This doesn't bode well for the game with all this ilvl gear floating around in 5 different forms if this goes through because RNG is horrible, but neither was the Item Upgrader either (unless it was used as a catch-up mechanic).

In conclusion, this idea is horrible.
90 Pandaren Priest
10380
Why are we talking about this with the much more pressing matter of Trolls having the 5% against beasts AND berserk? Tsk tsk.
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