10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Human Paladin
12640
I dont like it mainly because its going to be like "random boss loot" and if you are in a guild thats brings people in and out to gear others while its on farm everyone will probably still need their thunder forged piece
90 Human Warrior
8930
But it's as you said, 25 mans are "too hard too form" whereas 10 mans can be formed supposedly much easier. 10 mans cater to the arena hero crowd and are detrimental to MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER games. I state that i'm forced to do 10 mans because no guild leader wants to go out of their way to find 15 extra people when it's much easier to play with a main group of 5 friends and 3 pugs. People always choose the path of least resistance. 10 mans are that path.
90 Human Paladin
10710
Instead of Thunderforged, why not keep item upgrades and have upgrade tokens drop in raids? It's simpler, more flexible, and accomplishes the same goal. Right now I'm picturing Blizzard throwing things at the wall to see what sticks. It's not a pretty picture.
90 Orc Shaman
HC
15680
01/23/2013 11:08 AMPosted by Ristrettee
I like the idea! It doesn't penalize either 10 or 25.


I agree, we can finally say 25m will be easier since 25m will have a much higher average item level.
90 Human Warrior
12785
5 different variations of multiple items and we STILL can't have any more bankspace.
90 Pandaren Monk
16665
This is also a good time to note that the 25/10 heroic lockout restrictions need to go away.

One of the biggest problems I come across in terms of managing attendance is being left without options once we're in heroic content. While I can understand this is done for the sake of 'world firsts' and other such things, these restrictions should be removed entirely once those kills occur.

Being unable to switch to a 10man raid size in heroic once 1 boss is killed (and vice versa) is a design that causes many more problems than it solves. Almost all 25man guilds are using 10man nowadays to cover times when RL enrages the Attendance Boss, but currently the system doesn't allow for it.

Makeup days off the normal schedule are something that's rarely possible for 25mans, but often for 10mans. The ability to toggle raid sizes is great, but not having that option available for heroic content once a boss is killed in the instance is incredibly frustrating.

EDIT: This would also most likely increase the overall ilvl of those in 25man guilds as progression would happen at a faster rate, without some new arbitrary system to keep track of.
Edited by Nahela on 1/23/2013 11:16 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Paladin
15195
Instead of a random piece dropping that's Thunderforged, why not drop an extra item that upgrades an existing piece by 6 ilevels? "This item adds the Thunderforged effect to an item, granting 6 additional item levels. Note: can not be used on set pieces."

This still makes it interesting to farm those old bosses, but removes a bit of the bad part of the RNG process (ie, cloth/mail/leather/plate etc). This way would have more synergy with the current upgrade system.
90 Troll Shaman
14215
thunderforged? i have enough trouble having loot i can use even drop in raids right now. more rng in my rng? well balls.
90 Orc Hunter
15790
You should separate the achievements for 10s and 25s. Slightly better drop chance on random loot will not bring people back to 25s.
MVP
90 Worgen Warlock
10465
I think this is an interesting idea but it's not going to solve the issue 25mans are having. Having more RNG dependent loot with an increased ilevel isn't going to make more people want to show up to a 25man raid

The core of the issue is that at this point in the game's lifespan, low key 10man heroic raiding appeals more to the playerbase at large because it's a smaller, tight knit group of people with less likelihood for drama and easier recruitment prospects. 25man groups have different qualities that make them fun, including raid size adding to the feeling of epicness when a boss is downed. That same feeling you got in vanilla when you down a boss with 39 other people.

At the core the mechanics are the same but you need to learn to seize on the qualities of each raid size and play to their strengths if you want to attract people to 25man raiding again. Ask some 25man raiders what they enjoy about doing it and as long as the answer isn't a repeated "we get more gear" then start using their ideas for the gameplay mechanics.

But I digress. There's no easy answer to this problem, and maybe this is a step in the right direction. I just hope it isn't the only thing planned.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9540
I don't really like the way you're implementing this. As a fix to the 25 man issue, whatever, it's not going to affect my decision of where to raid one way or the other, but what really bugs me about this is how it's just going to make enchanting, gemming, reforging, and (when it returns in 5.3) valor upgrading that much more annoying.

It's bad enough now as it is to waste resources on getting an item ready only to have it drop on a higher difficulty a week or so after that, but with this change you can't even really say "oh I'll upgrade this piece because we won't get this guy on heroic for a while anyway" because the very next week you might see the thunderforged version by complete chance. (not to mention the odd spacing where thunderforged is +6 where as valor upgrades are +4/+8. (so a regular piece you upgrade once will still be worse than thunderforged.)

Maybe a better option is just have a chance to drop a thunder stone or ingot or something like that, then have have it usable at the thunderforge to dirrectly upgrade the ilv instead of a whole new item. Plus this gives a nice lore tie in to the upgrade instead of "this boss I've killed 5 times before happened to drop a better version of an item I already have." (of course the stones would need to be difficulty specific so that you couldn't just stockpile stones from normal until you got heroic drops.)

Also, what the hell is up with LFR gear being equal to vaults heroic gear? I was really hoping that having to run LFR was just going to be a begining of the expansion thing, now we find out that if you haven't been full clearing heroic HoF and terrace for weeks already you'll be stuck with the idiots in week 1 LFR again... Also, does anyone see a problem with going from 483 to 502? That's a 19 ilv jump for anyone "progressing" through LFR just for queuing and auto attacking.
Edited by Darthelm on 1/23/2013 12:33 PM PST
90 Human Paladin
12640
01/23/2013 11:09 AMPosted by Yandere
Instead of Thunderforged, why not keep item upgrades and have upgrade tokens drop in raids? It's simpler, more flexible, and accomplishes the same goal. Right now I'm picturing Blizzard throwing things at the wall to see what sticks. It's not a pretty picture.


^ i like this idea
90 Blood Elf Priest
5990
This is silly - they should just adopt 15 mans across-the-board with the same loot and be done with it.
90 Night Elf Hunter
0
So adding better loot drops is the best solution?

Wouldnt this be the same drama that Legendaries caused in most guilds?

Removing legendaries and have everyone have one to basically reinstating the same principal for a higher ilvl purple. Really?

Here's a solution. Kill both 10's and 25s, make one unified raid size, even in LFR(queues take one damn hour anyways). Makes it easier for guild recruitment and more managable no matter how you look at it, not only for guilds but also the Dev team.

Or, simply allow Free transfers, so if 10's are stuck on a crappy server with limited player base and/or talent. They are allowed to recruit from other servers with no problems.
You can put a time period, like you do with Restore Items, so people wont keep transferring over and over again. 30-90days. Unless Blizzard like gauging us for more $$.

Or, since you guys like "borrowing" from other games. Do what GW2 does, and have the ability to make Cross Realm Guilds.

These issues would solve so much problems, and dont use excuses you dont have the tech to do it. You guys make $150million a month off subs alone. Im sure you can afford the tech.
90 Human Mage
13505
01/23/2013 11:09 AMPosted by Tacolol
But it's as you said, 25 mans are "too hard too form" whereas 10 mans can be formed supposedly much easier. 10 mans cater to the arena hero crowd and are detrimental to MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER games. I state that i'm forced to do 10 mans because no guild leader wants to go out of their way to find 15 extra people when it's much easier to play with a main group of 5 friends and 3 pugs. People always choose the path of least resistance. 10 mans are that path.


I choose it because personally it's more connected instead of 15 others I will hardly other know. The fact you say 10's cater to the *Arena Hero Crowd* shows how bias and ignorant you are to to the personal taste of 10 mans. Yes it is a Massive Multiplayer game but you are the only one using that argument for raid types. Nobody else here has mentioned it. You aren't really forced to do 10 mans though maybe some are. Your suggestion would just be the same situation but screwing over 25 man.

If anything you're making a solution for your own personal gains.
90 Draenei Shaman
19715
Actually how about this...

Make [Flawless Upgrade Stones] drop instead of just upgraded [Insert name of gear].

More commonly in 25, but still able to drop in 10.
90 Pandaren Monk
16665
01/23/2013 11:11 AMPosted by Dliver
This is silly - they should just adopt 15 mans across-the-board with the same loot and be done with it.


Yes please.
90 Draenei Shaman
19715
01/23/2013 11:11 AMPosted by Dliver
This is silly - they should just adopt 15 mans across-the-board with the same loot and be done with it.


I would enjoy this more.
90 Human Paladin
12640
01/23/2013 11:11 AMPosted by Dliver
This is silly - they should just adopt 15 mans across-the-board with the same loot and be done with it.


no. do you realize all the drama this would bring?
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