10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

(Locked)

90 Worgen Warrior
15230
I don't think RNG on top of RNG is the best solution to the problem.
90 Human Paladin
12640
01/23/2013 11:21 AMPosted by Dliver


no. do you realize all the drama this would bring?

I don't see why - 25s shuffle around a little bit and 10s pick up a few. I'm sure it'll work itself out after a few weeks and 15 seems like a nice, normal, not overwhelming number, no?

To me that's better than the idea that 25s deserve better loot because they can organize 25 people. To me, that really doesn't make any sense.

Obviously, smaller raids are popular, larger raids are unpopular, so split the difference.


i say that because not every ten man has more then 10 and 25 mans would have to drop 10 people i mean i would love to see it but i think it would be a dramafest
90 Blood Elf Priest
12325
Terrible idea.

Right now my BIS for a given piece of gear has roughly a 15% chance to drop, assuming I can kill the boss that drops it. Say Thunderforged is a 10% drop; That would make the Thunderforged BIS a roughly 1.5% drop. (20% would be 3.0%, etc.) Having a BIS drop rate ridiculous low in the case of something special like legendaries is one thing. It's depressing to think that when I kill a boss I only have a 1.5% (or some equally unlikely single-digit percent) chance of actually getting the item I want from EVERY SINGLE BOSS for EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF GEAR.

And if Thunderforged is supposed to be significantly rarer than that, so that it isn't even supposed to be "expected" in any way, what's the point? A .2% chance at getting 6 item levels? Hello, underwhelming.

Most of the longer posts that relate to loot drama as far as guild loot management hit it on the head, so I won't regurgitate the same info.

I'd be neutral to mildly positive (at best) on the idea if they were some sort of token to upgrade any existing gear.
90 Goblin Priest
15200
Actually how about this...

Make [Flawless Upgrade Stones] drop instead of just upgraded [Insert name of gear].

More commonly in 25, but still able to drop in 10.


That's..... actually not a horrible idea.

Blizz - Make it happen!
Edited by Layn on 1/23/2013 11:28 AM PST
90 Pandaren Priest
10380
Terrible idea.

Right now my BIS for a given piece of gear has roughly a 15% chance to drop, assuming I can kill the boss that drops it. Say Thunderforged is a 10% drop; That would make the Thunderforged BIS a roughly 1.5% drop. (20% would be 3.0%, etc.) Having a BIS drop rate ridiculous low in the case of something special like legendaries is one thing. It's depressing to think that when I kill a boss I only have a 1.5% (or some equally unlikely single-digit percent) chance of actually getting the item I want from EVERY SINGLE BOSS for EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF GEAR.

And if Thunderforged is supposed to be significantly rarer than that, so that it isn't even supposed to be "expected" in any way, what's the point? A .2% chance at getting 6 item levels? Hello, underwhelming.

Most of the longer posts that relate to loot drama as far as guild loot management hit it on the head, so I won't regurgitate the same info.

I'd be neutral to mildly positive (at best) on the idea if they were some sort of token to upgrade any existing gear.


This.
90 Pandaren Shaman
13960
Really not only do 10 man grps have trouble with certain pieces never dropping sometimes to the point that it holds back progression now your going to make it even worst u seem to care to much about 25 man raiding its just so much more annoying then 10s getting a extra 15-20 people who don't suck for heroic progression and the extra lag which can be very debilitating in 25 mans now the gear curb will be disgustingly different if the drop rates are hugely different for thunderforge on 25 from 10 this may be enough to kill a few good 10 man guilds sigh idiots
90 Pandaren Rogue
20115
01/23/2013 11:21 AMPosted by Batok
Why not just raise the VP cap and only have it obtainable through 25mans


that is a terrible idea because it would kill 10 mans and would not give casuals a good way to get gear if they ever wanted to try raiding


sort of how the conquest cap killed arenas since you can only get it through rated bgs?
90 Human Warrior
8135
Great idea... Bring back 25's!!!
90 Tauren Warrior
10125
I'll give this a cautious thumbs up. 25-mans have been waiting forever for -anything- to be done, at least this is a step in the right direction.

Just wondering, in light of the "ever expanding Rng" on loot this entails, would Blizzard ever consider giving players further methods to combat said RNG?

Like, if you had the non thunderforged version, you could spend an elder token specifically to roll for that thunderforged version (as opposed to the token RNG giving you the same thing or something else on the loot table). Otherwise the bonus rolls are going to gain another level of "fail" beyond just gold; at least now if you have an item, you don't need to spend a bonus roll.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14320
10 vs 25 man aside. I see this as being bad for both formats.

I have raided 25 mans, and often loot drama can cause guild breakups, people leaving, etc. By introducing these pieces you are just making the logistics harder for the officers and creating the potential for drama.

Something similar could happen in 10 mans. Considering the rarity of thunderforged pieces, it is likely that a 10 man will probably never see a thunderforged piece more than once. That being the case, as a 10 man raid leader, I might have to deal with some loot drama even in a 10 man, which is currently kept at bay by the thought that normal/heroic loot will drop again.

Again, I know loot drama shouldn't be an issue, but from personal experience it is. On a side note, I know a few people were a bit discouraged that it is almost impossible to get BiS gear with the upgrade system. This new RNG would make it even worse. Loot is already RNG enough. If you make it hopeless to get BiS people will quit.
90 Orc Death Knight
18660
Is this the big "feature" GC was talking about that has not been announced yet?

I'm thinking not, its not as big as LFR by any means.

I wonder to myself if this "big" thing is cross realm guilds. I sure hope so.
90 Orc Shaman
13750
Despite what old EQ vets might think, "Epic" doesn't necessarily equate to "having a sea of faces, most of whom I don't know, all hacking at a boss' ankles".

If people are moving away from 25 person raiding, it's because they realize that it might not be as fun for them.

Let go of the past. The devs took away 1231231 talents and talent points because more isn't always better. More people stuffed into your group doesn't mean it's better, either.

On a completely different note, stuffing more people into low level zones doesn't make them better either.

Only a Facebook-addicted ADHD poster child would want to be surrounded by people all the time.


I don't know about you, but I knew and grouped with most people in my EQ guild. In fact, one thing that was better about those larger guilds is that there were groups going for stuff all the time, be it old raids, drop farming, AA point farming, etc, etc. There's much less of that going on in WoW. Especially since group forming is automated.
90 Pandaren Monk
9740
In 10 mans even in progression I'm seeing gear get sharded after the first kill. I would rather see a system where every time you kill a boss you get a little token and then you can take a certain number of them to Wrathion and buy a piece of the gear that drops from the bosses. That way if your luck is just ultra garbage you can still be guaranteed to eventually get that piece of gear you need. Don't let people buy gear from bosses they haven't killed yet.

I mean if Wrathion can just take 9k gold and fetch another Sha crystal, why couldn't he get his baby dragon claws on boss loot? It makes more sense than the black market AH nonsense and heroic gear popping up. Just put us on an IV drip of loot tokens so that we aren't gearing super fast but it's enough incentive to keep raiding when nothing drops for you.
90 Draenei Mage
13780


Again your idea is fun is subjective to others and my own. I don't want to be forced to do 25 man's. Your idea is an extreme and shouldn't be taken to heart.


As a 25-man raider right now, my guild has to run both 10-man and 25-man raid nights. As a 25-man raider, I am essentially forced to play a type of content I don't like (10-mans). If you actually look at the vast majority of 25-man guilds (other than say the top 5% of 25-man guilds), we've killed stuff on 10-man content first.

So, the fallacy about being forced to do content is actually ironic because people who want to run 25's don't get to run 25's anymore. With only 1 or 2 guilds on a server that run 25-man content, you don't have a choice of what guild you are in if you want to run 25-man content. They haven't created a system of "seperate but equal", they've created a system of "just run 10-man if you want to actually progress because you don't have any competition to compare yourself to if you are a 25-man guild anyway".

By collapsing across achievements and preventing sites like wowprogress from actually being able to track 25 vs 10-man progress in any real meaningful way, all they've managed to do is destroy the 25-man raiding environment even for people who would rather quit the game than run 10s (those people for the most part have already quit and moved on from WOW meaning that their voices are already gone and replaced with the vocal minority of people who are already getting what they want).

There will always be guilds that have leadership burnout and collapse. The important part of a healthy game is that new guilds should pop up in their place. Both 10-man and 25-man guilds eventually burn out and stop running. However, Instead of being able to choose between creating a 25-man and a 10-man guild, the only option is to create a new 10-man guild.

Thus, all the 10s and 25s fold and are just replaced by new 10s. At the current rate of entropy, there won't be any 25-man guilds left by the time that the next expansion launches unless something gets done that makes it easier to choose to be a newly formed 25-man guild. The fact that it's easier to just stop recruiting when you hit enough people to run 10s, and you have zero incentive to take the extra effort to find the additional 20 people you need to run a full 25-man guild means that people are just going to let 25s attrition and die out from the game completely.

Is this new system going to fix that problem? Absolutely not. It's a nice handout to those of us who are currently raiding 25s, and may have a few more people post applications on our forums. However, when my guild's officers burn out and my 25-man guild dies (lets say 3 years from now, if we're able to hold out that long), there won't be any other 25-man guild on my server that I could join to run 25s that fits my playstyle, schedule, and general interests - because we were the only guild on our server who was raiding 25-man heroic modes at the end of Dragon Soul. The other dozen 25-man guilds were either gone or only running 10s. Instead, I'd have the option of finding a 10-man or quitting the game entirely. For people who love 25-mans, we unfortunately aren't given the same luxury of choice that people who love 10-mans are given.


This speaks to the problems with single server guilds rather then a 10 versus 25 man debate to me. Yes from a person stand point it is easier to make a 10 man guild (obviously) but if there are indeed enough people like you adding rewards to get other people to be "forced" in to 25 mans is the same thing as you describe for 10's. The lack of ability to find other people who like 25 mans and raid with them despite their server is more of the problem you speak of. Servers except the big ones are losing population because the game is in fact old, very old for an MMO.
90 Worgen Warrior
7305
I sure hope this wasn't their plan to revive 25m as it falls way short.

As a former raid leader I would not subject myself to extra work on the off chance that by doing so that someone on my raid team might acquire a slightly better item.

Now if those bosses had a chance to drop a token that allowed me to upgrade any item and that token was exclusive to 25m raiding I might consider it.
90 Human Death Knight
16535
Thunderforge = Item Level Upgrade

You already went through great effort and expense to add Item Level Upgrades to the game. So why not just use that same infrastructure?

Have Thunderforge tokens drop in Normal and Heroic. Each Token is good for a free ilvl upgrade. That's essentially like getting 750 Valor in one drop and it lets you gear up faster than the Valor cap would allow. You could even have the 10man tokens do 1 upgrade and the 25man tokens do 2.

Same result that you want: There is an advantage to 25man, but at the same time you aren't introducing something new that nobody else can enjoy. LFR players can still pay 750 valor and gear up slowly but surely. 10man raiders get better gear, and a chance each week to get an instant up. 25mans get the same gear, but more changes each week to instant up, or a way for guilds to preferentially gear their mains.

It makes no sense to introduce a new way to change item levels when you already have a perfectly functional way to do it in game. You could even separate it to a new Thunderforge NPC if you want to disable the ability to upgrade LFR gear with Valor during 5.2 patch.
90 Human Warrior
13520
01/23/2013 09:10 AMPosted by Anysia
This will not help bring back 25s.
Do you have a better solution?

I think it's a great idea. It's infinitely better than what they HAVE been doing to address it (ie NOTHING) so this, even if it fails miserably, is a step in the right direction.


Give 25s a chance to drop the new elder charm things mogu charm or w/e or just do what they did in asia using the item upgrader or best of all take 10 and 25 off the same dang lockout.
90 Draenei Mage
13780
[quote="77074694550"][quote]

This isn't enough. Blizzard should make all 25 gear "Thunderforged", and give 10s a tiny, tiny chance at it (10% or less). Then, all those people who are running cliquish little guilds would suddenly need to open the doors and recruit, or get run out of town by the people who learn how to form actual communities in their raids. People act like 10s are making raiding accessible... but in truth, they destroy raiding, and allow the elitists to never have to interact with the general population.


This is about keeping 25 mans alive, not forcing players to do 25 mans. It is clear your experience with 10 mans is rather tainted.
90 Human Death Knight
16535
I'd also like to point out I really hate the idea of off-set pieces being better than tier pieces. It makes it a complete math game to figure out whether it's better to have 4 tier and 1 offset or 2 tier and 3 offset with higher ilvl and perhaps better stats. Or at an extreme, no tier at all and all Thunderdrops.

So please, let us upgrade the pieces we want to have, either for the bonus or the stats on them. Don't make tier pieces (already sometimes of questional value based on this month's set bonus), even less useful. Don't turn BiS lists into a never-completeable game of chance.
This topic is locked.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]