10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

(Locked)

100 Tauren Druid
21295
This is about keeping 25 mans alive, not forcing players to do 25 mans. It is clear your experience with 10 mans is rather tainted.


Problem is though this 'solution' is more likely to break the 25 man guilds up than help them recruit.... as other people have stated. The TF system is highly flawed as it will just make more work for the GMs and Officers of raiding guilds with dealing with loot distribution and loot drama.
90 Worgen Death Knight
12305
I'm glad Blizzard is looking for ways to incentivize 25 mans, but this method is likely only going to cause more loot issues, for both 10 and 25 man raids. I would much prefer separate 10 and 25 man achievements, in particular for realm firsts. Even making 25m gear (or at least 25H tier) have a different color scheme would give some differentiation.

And please, don't bring back separate lockouts. It would be an annoyance for both 10m and 25m guilds, as 10m guilds would have to find other guilds to partner with, and 25m guilds would have to add 10m farm nights. In fact, this might lead to more 25m guild splintering, as ten people from a 25m would probably discover that they could progress faster without others holding them back.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
13160
This doesn't address the problem in the slightest. The problem isn't that raiders don't want to raid 25 mans. THE PROBLEM IS THAT NOBODY WANTS TO GO THROUGH THE ADMINISTRATIVE NIGHTMARE OF RUNNING THEM ANYMORE.

All you're doing is pissing off the 10 man guilds by making the 10-man content easier for 25-man guilds to demolish at the end of a tier, when they're all better geared due to this craptastic new system, and steal all the server firsts due to their inflated iLevel.
Edited by Evannder on 1/23/2013 11:46 AM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
12265
Then, all those people who are running cliquish little guilds would suddenly need to open the doors and recruit, or get run out of town by the people who learn how to form actual communities in their raids.


Problem with your theory here being that many guilds do have their doors open, and are recruiting. People simply aren't interested.

Guild leaders and officers being willing to put in the extra time and effort simply isn't enough.

That said, I don't see how this Thunderforged gear is going to fix anything. There is enough RNG in loot as is, we don't need more.

This doesn't address the problem in the slightest. The problem isn't that raiders don't want to raid 25 mans. the problem is that nobody wants to go through the administrative nightmare to RUN them anymore


If this was true, recruiting for a 25 man should be easy. It isn't.
Edited by Pebble on 1/23/2013 11:46 AM PST
90 Draenei Mage
13780
01/23/2013 11:41 AMPosted by Waraila
This is about keeping 25 mans alive, not forcing players to do 25 mans. It is clear your experience with 10 mans is rather tainted.


Problem is though this 'solution' is more likely to break the 25 man guilds up than help them recruit.... as other people have stated. The TF system is highly flawed as it will just make more work for the GMs and Officers of raiding guilds with dealing with loot distribution and loot drama.


Oh I agree, gear is not the answer to fix 25 man problems and have suggested earlier that something else needs to be done but gear is simply not it. Gear will either be not enough (more of a problem than a benefit like the current plan) or it will be too much in that it makes people feel forced to scramble to form a 25 man to max their character. I have stated earlier in this post I feel that something like WOTLK style achieves(if at the very least end bosses and titles)/mounts would be a much better option. 25 mans will still gear faster and better than 10's as they currently do that and there will be a distinction between the two groups while not causing further problems. What Blizzard seems to forget that for many reasons 10 mans are by far the majority of the raiding now and making too many changes to piss them off is far worse than the current state of 25 mans.
90 Worgen Rogue
5640
Sooo, dont know if this has been asked, when might 5.2 arrive live?
90 Tauren Death Knight
9250
Has nobody in the conference room thought that maybe were going a little overboard here? I mean, is it necessary for me to have a Heroic Elite Thunder Forged 2/2 upgraded pair of tanking boots from the lightning-sinestra? I sound like the kid from Christmas Story.

What was wrong with giving 25 man raiders 2/2 items and 10 man raiders 0/2 items and calling it a day? I understand it could be seen as a slap in the face, but it definitely promotes 25 man raiding while still allowing 10 man raiders to upgrade their key items if not all their items by the end of the tier.

Perhaps you found it to be an issue that with that system 25 man raiders would not have any use for their valor. Why is that a problem?

I'm not trying to be aggressive. I'm just trying to understand why complication is better than what's mentioned above.
Edited by Peekochu on 1/23/2013 11:48 AM PST
90 Human Rogue
13625
Has there been a determination whether Thunderforged can drop from charm rolls?

I wouldn't mind seeing lockouts split again - our guild would still run 10 man, but I'd jump into 25 man semi-pugs for an extra shot at loot sometimes.

A guy named Deadshot used to run 25 man ICC pugs on Doomhammer all the time, and it worked out pretty well (better and better as the buff got stronger, obv). I haven't seen a GDKP run on Doomhammer since ICC either, I don't think.

I think that this kind of thing died off because of the shared lockout. I'll do a lot more work for this toon than I will for any of my alts.
Edited by Mechaninja on 1/23/2013 11:52 AM PST
90 Draenei Mage
13780


This is about keeping 25 mans alive, not forcing players to do 25 mans. It is clear your experience with 10 mans is rather tainted.


Random loot doesn't keep 25s alive, it just makes loot distribution EVEN HARDER. In a 10-man, it's very likely you only have one person who can really use X piece of loot, especially since tier tokens can't be Thunderforged.

If a Thunderforged Agi Dagger drops in your raid, which Rogue gets it? Oh, your 10 only has one Rogue? Must be nice, my 25 has 3. See the issue? All gear in a 25 needs to be Thunderforged. 10s should only get a *tiny* chance at it.

That doesn't make 25s mandatory, it makes them desirable. Then you get to decide, do I want to only play with my clique, or do I want to expand to the larger community and bring back in all those people who I slammed the door on when I went 10? The sooner Blizz does something like this, frankly, the better.

10s will always exist and be an option - there's simply ZERO reason they should be the "premiere" option, given that you create a 10 by saying "screw you" to 15 other people and deciding to stick with an insular group.


It was in response to your idea, not the current one. Again you clearly have a very tainted view of 10 mans.
90 Blood Elf Mage
4440
I honestly like this idea. More incentive to raid is cool and more incentive to raid with more people is even cooler. Can we get cross-server raiding though? I honestly don't see my realm getting many people for a 25 man raid.
90 Human Paladin
12290
I do like this idea, but still the fact that a lot of 25 mans are falling apart because of those 10 people who wish to do only 10 mans because they "believe" It's easier this way.

You say you don't wish to slap the faces of those 10mans

01/23/2013 09:00 AMPosted by Crithto
That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.


So you care more about slapping the faces of 10 people than slapping 15+ people to make those 10 people happy to move to just doing 10mans instead of doing 25mans? I do see your logic in this new change and as i said before, this is a great idea, but our guild on our server is the only 25man raiding guild left and we do not want it to be the last. Before the change of the item lvl on 10 vs 25 basically felt like if you took the extra item to get 25 people together to kill the boss, you got not only extra loot for people, but better loot, because you took the time to work together as a bigger team to kill these bosses than just grabbing 10 of your buddies together and running in on any day of the week and killing them to get the same type of loot that the 25man just did but without that extra work of getting more people to join in.

I honestly do not mind 10 mans. I do them myself from time to time and i see them as an easy way out of having to deal with 15 other people that might be sucking on DPS/Healing/or even tanking. But the extra time it takes to get 25 people together and to work together as a bigger team to kill a boss, feels so much more rewarding than just getting 10 of my friends together and going in and killing it on 10man. I do hope a lot of people see where i am getting at with this and if not, i only suggest going back to the whole different gear item on 10man vs 25man.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
13160

Solution is to guarantee it for 25s and to make it random for 10s. Now 10s have more RNG woes - but they've always had RNG woes so that's nothing new. The "solution" if they don't want to deal with RNG is to go 25... which creates the incentives for 10s to merge or recruit, but leaves them with the option of simply remaining 10 and getting their loot more sporadically.


Because guaranteed drops in 25's and random chance in 10's worked out so well for 10 mans trying to put together a legendary staff in Firelands.
100 Tauren Druid
21295
01/23/2013 11:45 AMPosted by Subrosian
If a Thunderforged Agi Dagger drops in your raid, which Rogue gets it? Oh, your 10 only has one Rogue? Must be nice, my 25 has 3. See the issue? All gear in a 25 needs to be Thunderforged. 10s should only get a *tiny* chance at it.


I agree... If thunderforged Agil leather boots drop in the raid, well we have 3 rogues, 3 kitties and 2 monks. If 4 of those have the non thunderforged version on the same difficulty as you've just killed it on, then they get to feel shafted if one of the others gets the item, and the ones that don't have either get to feel shafted if they don't because one of the others has had 2 upgrades. And the officers just facedesk at the drama that this has caused. Granted our guild is good with upgrade systems but it just puts more pressure on the officers and leaders.

It's not a feasible system as it's proposed.
Edited by Waraila on 1/23/2013 11:56 AM PST
90 Human Paladin
19695
Here are some downsides to this system (POV: high end raider):

1) RNG of early Thunderforged drops gives some guilds advantages over others (same could be said about what items drop in the first place, however)

2) Significantly increased time it takes to get full best in slot gear, something high end raiders dislike (also see Dragon Soul rings, Crystallized Firestones, VP Upgrade System)

3) Significantly increased time it takes to gear up alts, due to backlog of gear and people being more likely to stay on their mains to try to get Thunderforged variants. Alts are vitally important for high end guilds.

4) Being "rare" on 25 and "rarer" on 10 doesn't feel rewarding, just random and inconvenient. Example of a rewarding model is Heroic Elite Protectors of the Endless, or most of Ulduar.

5) It doesn't really fundamentally make sense for better item level loot to randomly drop from a boss. See above examples - there's no difference in effort required and it's very susceptible to RNG.

6) This is not enough of an incentive, by any means, for guilds to transform from 10 to 25. If anything, this seems like a bandage to stop further hemorrhaging of 25 man guilds. In fact, the added potential loot drama and effort by officers may even cause the breakup of more 25 man guilds than the creation of them.


This pretty much summarizes everything I wanted to post here. Not a good design, I'd rather stick to the current design honestly.
90 Worgen Warrior
17155
01/23/2013 11:52 AMPosted by Subrosian
The reality is, when you incentive 25s, you are inherently going to mak 10s less desirable. There is no way around that, you have to accept that when 25s are literally dying out in droves, something drastic has to be done.


QFT
90 Draenei Mage
13780
01/23/2013 11:52 AMPosted by Subrosian


Problem with your theory here being that many guilds do have their doors open, and are recruiting. People simply aren't interested.

Guild leaders and officers being willing to put in the extra time and effort simply isn't enough.

That said, I don't see how this Thunderforged gear is going to fix anything. There is enough RNG in loot as is, we don't need more.


10s will be unhappy because they already have RNG, and now they have RNG squared.

25s will be unhappy because they already have loot distribution to deal with, and now they have to deal with it even more so and if it's truly rare enough, it basically becomes a "legendary drama" with every piece of loot.

-

Solution is to guarantee it for 25s and to make it random for 10s. Now 10s have more RNG woes - but they've always had RNG woes so that's nothing new. The "solution" if they don't want to deal with RNG is to go 25... which creates the incentives for 10s to merge or recruit, but leaves them with the option of simply remaining 10 and getting their loot more sporadically.

-

The reality is, when you incentive 25s, you are inherently going to make 10s less desirable. There is no way around that, you have to accept that when 25s are literally dying out in droves, something drastic has to be done.


Something other than gear is a far better option then creating problems that don't need to be created for both sides by changing gear around further. Yes it does suck that 25 mans are dying but to cater to them when they are (admitted by Blizzard) to be a large minority now with something as powerful as gear seems like a desperate move done far too late. Other incentives would that would distinguish the two would seem to be a far better option.
This topic is locked.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]