10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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100 Tauren Druid
17350
Amen.

Every server right now except for high-pop servers is a disaster. You're lying if you say it isn't. You have maybe 3 ~ 4 raids of 10-mans that are good and can clear content. Then all the "rejects" form dozens upon dozens of little 10-mans that can't even clear Normal modes. The 10-man system was just a way for little cliques of friends to form a guild and never have to deal with teaching a new player how to play.

So now, you have all these new, inexperience, or just "regular" players, who are getting screwed over instead of helped. If you wanted to clear a raid in the past, you actually had to be a community and help people. Yes, part of being a 25 man is teaching your weakest player how to play. In a 10? You just cut them and replace them with someone "better", and leave anyone behind who isn't already an expert at the game.

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This isn't enough. Blizzard should make all 25 gear "Thunderforged", and give 10s a tiny, tiny chance at it (10% or less). Then, all those people who are running cliquish little guilds would suddenly need to open the doors and recruit, or get run out of town by the people who learn how to form actual communities in their raids. People act like 10s are making raiding accessible... but in truth, they destroy raiding, and allow the elitists to never have to interact with the general population.


I am sure for many the 10 man system is way for cliques and friends to form guilds who never bother teaching a new player how to play. I am also sure that there are many 10 man guilds who were formed by groups of players who are not friends or cliques and who actively teach their "weak" players how to play. You are making many, many overreaching assumptions when you say that a poorly performing player is simply cut from a 10 man. This happens in 25 mans as well and to say that it happens more in 10 mans is pure opinion. Each format is a community, yes with different logistics and different pros and cons but players are players regardless and should not be treated as "inferior" if they do not choose the format you prefer.

Making all 25 gear Thunderforged could have a significant impact 10 man raiding guilds who have every right given to 25 man raiding guilds to partake in their chosen format. 10 mans are an option, 25 mans are an option, when both formats are tuned to be of equal difficulty then it really is a choice. We can argue all day long about 10 vs 25 man but it all comes down to player choice. Asking Blizzard to force players into one choice simply to benefit the raid format you feel is "superior" is selfish and your own opinion.

Players who choose the 10 man raid format over 25 mans should be not be treated any different than those who choose the 25 man raid format. We are all players who have made a choice. The only problem is when players settle instead of playing the format they really enjoy, that is when I feel Blizzard needs to step in to help bring that to the player who desires it but to do so in a way that does not demean the players who do not choose the same option.
MVP - World of Warcraft
100 Night Elf Druid
14915
Has nobody in the conference room thought that maybe were going a little overboard here? I mean, is it necessary for me to have a Heroic Elite Thunder Forged 2/2 upgraded pair of tanking boots from the lightning-sinestra? I sound like the kid from Christmas Story.

What was wrong with giving 25 man raiders 2/2 items and 10 man raiders 0/2 items and calling it a day? I understand it could be seen as a slap in the face, but it definitely promotes 25 man raiding while still allowing 10 man raiders to upgrade their key items if not all their items by the end of the tier.

Perhaps you found it to be an issue that with that system 25 man raiders would not have any use for their valor. Why is that a problem?

I'm not trying to be aggressive. I'm just trying to understand why complication is better than what's mentioned above.


Actually, reducing the VP burden on 25-man guilds would be something that I would fully support. That would be something you could offer players - come join our 25-man and then you don't have to worry about VP point capping each week. The 10s could still have the same maximum ilevel.

In terms of being worried about 25s taking "world firsts" from 10-man guilds, I still think we need to split 10-man and 25-man achievements such as "world firsts" so that BOTH raid sizes get to compete within their own raid size. Or, have a flavor text lock achievements so that you can only have one achievement or the other. So long as the achievement system and armory ignores your raid size, there isn't an incentive for leadership to create new 25-man guilds. If you as a new raid leader were creating a guild to be one of two 25s competing for your 25-man world first, it would make sense for some other guild to want to come and participate in that race. If the 10-man guild is likely to beat the 25-man guild to the only achievement, it makes more sense for just creating a new 10-man guild to speed up your progress and make recruitment easier.
Edited by Lissanna on 1/23/2013 12:02 PM PST
90 Orc Warlock
13430
Maybe this will work out more evenly if 5.3 brings back the Upgrade Ethereals and Thunderforged items are already classified as upgraded?
90 Undead Rogue
14750
Moo.

Random chance +6 ilevel bonuses seem pretty boring and really won't have any effect on boosting 25man raids.

In my opinion you need to look at raid infrastructure. The problem 25man raids have is when they can't fill composition wise. A 25man raid needs to keep a larger bench than a 10man guild.

So in this case look outside the box and find ways to make it easier coordination wise for 25man raid groups.

For instance:

Make a 25man baseline raid 2 tanks, 6 healers and 17 dps.

Say a couple healers are out, instead of forcing the 25man raid to carry three or four benched healers on a regular basis, allow them to five-heal the encounter.

2 tanks, 5 healers and 18 dps. But give the raid a +10% bonus to healing taken.

Say a lot of dps are out but all the healers are on. Let the raid do that.

2 tanks, 7 healers and 16 dps. Give the raid a +5% damage bonus.


This helps the 25man raid groups work around trying to keep their roster viable to raid with without having to have such a large bench.


I like something more along the lines of this. To help some of the large issues with 25 man, RNG loot will just complicate some things and not even touch issues with 25.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
13160

The reality is, when you incentive 25s, you are inherently going to mak 10s less desirable. There is no way around that, you have to accept that when 25s are literally dying out in droves, something drastic has to be done.


The drastic thing they need to do to fix this entire mess is to go back to one raid size. Pick a !@#$%^- number, Blizzard.
90 Night Elf Hunter
14680
01/23/2013 11:15 AMPosted by Lothlan


I would enjoy this more.


It is too late to change raid size in the game, especially with probably half the servers now having population problems. This would have had to be a change years ago, not in the middle of MoP.


Too late for what? The World Firsts are done. This would be the perfect time to do it for 5.2.
Maybe that way, Vodka and Exodus, dont have to merge guilds because Vodka lost their GM/RL. I'm sure alot of guilds wouldnt have to merge if there was 15man raids
90 Gnome Rogue
16020
Just remove the shared cool down and the problem would be solved. As long as you're committed to releasing new content on a more regular basis like you claim I really don't see the big deal if some people have the time and would like to run both raids in the same week.
100 Dwarf Warrior
18355
Reiterating what has been said on topic from the perspective of someone in a progression (U.S. top 25) 25-man raiding guild:

This will not solve the problem of the ongoing loss of 25-man raiding. This RNG is not the kind incentive that will substantially increase interest in 25-man raiding to overcome the obstacles it has versus 10-man raiding to recruit and to maintain a full roster to do the content.

Also, this just creates tremendous problems that are outlined articulately in the posts by Eyliria (#98), Valen (#103), and Ataxus (#125), among others.
100 Draenei Priest
12085
Does this mean that the scaling of 25 man raids will be a little more difficult to compensate?

Will this lead to more 25 man to 10 man conversions later in the tier? i.e After a while in 25's getting easier access to Thunderforged items something happens to a guild's core and a 10 man results. This 10 group would have a significantly easier time due to having an already better item level than a group that was always 10 and probably just finish off the tier that way.


25mans are already more difficult than 10mans.
90 Tauren Paladin
13230
If 10 man is the majority and 25 is the minority then why are we debating on changing the minority to be better than the majority? Could it be because the world's best guilds are (with the exception of Paragon) all 25 mans?

25 man already sees better use of its loot compared to 10 man. I've raided both 10 and 25 and find the loot to be much better and more frequently usable in 25 than any 10 man I ever ran. Especially with pieces that have low drop chances. 25 man already receives more loot per person. In the current tier a 10 man group would need 3 more bosses to have the same amount of loot per person as a 25.

I think 25 man loot is fine the way it is. The RNG on 10 man loot is what needs fixed. My suggestion for that would be to have the game (like it does in LFR) give appropriate loot based off the raids members. I don't know how many mail int or plate int pieces dropped for us in DS without a resto sham or holy pally in the group.

Either way I think it's BS that 25 man guilds are crying over loot.
90 Draenei Mage
13780


It is too late to change raid size in the game, especially with probably half the servers now having population problems. This would have had to be a change years ago, not in the middle of MoP.


Too late for what? The World Firsts are done. This would be the perfect time to do it for 5.2.
Maybe that way, Vodka and Exodus, dont have to merge guilds because Vodka lost their GM/RL. I'm sure alot of guilds wouldnt have to merge if there was 15man raids


Too late in the terms of the game. Forcing your entire raiding population to shrink or suddenly grow is a terrible idea to do in the middle of the expansion and simply will not happen. Not sure where people get the idea that Blizzard would make a change like this anytime soon let alone in the middle of an expansion. Ghostcrawler has been quoted multiple times he would have loved a 15 man raid but the game is far to old to make such a drastic change to the core part of this game.
Edited by Lothlan on 1/23/2013 12:13 PM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
14475
01/23/2013 12:01 PMPosted by Lissanna
In terms of being worried about 25s taking "world firsts" from 10-man guilds, I still think we need to split 10-man and 25-man achievements such as "world firsts" so that BOTH raid sizes get to compete within their own raid size. Or, have a flavor text lock achievements so that you can only have one achievement or the other. So long as the achievement system and armory ignores your raid size, there isn't an incentive for leadership to create new 25-man guilds.


This. Unless loot is substantially better, consistently, and clearly so over 10man Raiding, 25man will be about the "choice" and the "prestige." However, without indications of doing so other than 3rd party sites trying their best to accommodate, it really kills that sense of "we're doing this the harder way or the right way."

The complaints about Thunderforged causing unnecessary loot drama... you guys need better raid leading skills. The exact same could be said of Heroic boss loot or just plain old loot in general "If you add new bosses they drop new loot and that means people will fight over that loot and I'll get a headache!!!" Handle loot as always, consider making rules such that someone with a non-TF item has an automatic lower priority over someone with a much lower drop, or just treat loot like always with DKP or Loot Council or EPGP or w/e. Social inabilities to manage a raid are not a compelling reason to include or discount this content. That goes as well for people sitting around in full HoF gear for weeks as they save up only for TF items... that's a toxic player in your guild... boot them.

Realm populations are also not a significant factor in the existence of 25man guilds. Back in Vanilla/TBC/Wrath, small servers still had a number of 25man guilds actively raiding, and currently gigantic servers are overflowing with 10man guilds. They are simply easier to stomach managing while providing equal reward to 25mans. "Fixing" realm populations or allowing CRZ Raiding would be nice, but wouldn't suddenly make 25mans more appealing, it would just make recruiting for 25mans a tad less problematic.

I'm fine with TF items over using extensive VP to upgrade items in 5.2. The rate of return will likely be similar (as in the ilvls gained will come about as often) at the expense of RNG and no decision on what piece to get bettered. There will be whining and complaining that without enough TF items Boss X is impossible, but likely they won't be tuned as such and your raid will just need to suck it up and improve, but eh whining will happen.

Split 10 and 25man acknowledgement within the game so that clear indication is there. A guild gets "server first" on the 10man level would still leave the race wide open for 25man, and if a guild wanted to double up on both of them, they'd have to spend two weeks and two lockouts doing so.

That or eliminate 10man raiding altogether... but I don't think that'll be a very popular idea. :P

PS - LFR kiddos don't need TF items. The gear is meant to prep/catch up for the actual Normal mode, that's it. You don't need TF LFR items to do so.
85 Troll Mage
15675
Has nobody in the conference room thought that maybe were going a little overboard here? I mean, is it necessary for me to have a Heroic Elite Thunder Forged 2/2 upgraded pair of tanking boots from the lightning-sinestra? I sound like the kid from Christmas Story.

What was wrong with giving 25 man raiders 2/2 items and 10 man raiders 0/2 items and calling it a day? I understand it could be seen as a slap in the face, but it definitely promotes 25 man raiding while still allowing 10 man raiders to upgrade their key items if not all their items by the end of the tier.

Perhaps you found it to be an issue that with that system 25 man raiders would not have any use for their valor. Why is that a problem?

I'm not trying to be aggressive. I'm just trying to understand why complication is better than what's mentioned above.


Actually, reducing the VP burden on 25-man guilds would be something that I would fully support. That would be something you could offer players - come join our 25-man and then you don't have to worry about VP point capping each week. The 10s could still have the same maximum ilevel.

In terms of being worried about 25s taking "world firsts" from 10-man guilds, I still think we need to split 10-man and 25-man achievements such as "world firsts" so that BOTH raid sizes get to compete within their own raid size. Or, have a flavor text lock achievements so that you can only have one achievement or the other. So long as the achievement system and armory ignores your raid size, there isn't an incentive for leadership to create new 25-man guilds. If you as a new raid leader were creating a guild to be one of two 25s competing for your 25-man world first, it would make sense for some other guild to want to come and participate in that race. If the 10-man guild is likely to beat the 25-man guild to the only achievement, it makes more sense for just creating a new 10-man guild to speed up your progress and make recruitment easier.


Dr. Lissanna; I salute you. I would also support a 2/2 upgrade incentive for 25-player raids. It would also put more emphesis on World first as well since High-end raiders would want that extra oomph to push content. Only downside is that 25-man guilds would complain about having all of these extra Valor points that they cannot use them on. Hence earlier in the thread I suggested going with a 1/2 upgrade incentive. That way there is SOMETHING for 25-player raiders to spend their VP on; but still a lot easier than 10-man raiders.
90 Orc Shaman
13550
Here are some downsides to this system (POV: high end raider):

1) RNG of early Thunderforged drops gives some guilds advantages over others (same could be said about what items drop in the first place, however)

2) Significantly increased time it takes to get full best in slot gear, something high end raiders dislike (also see Dragon Soul rings, Crystallized Firestones, VP Upgrade System)

3) Significantly increased time it takes to gear up alts, due to backlog of gear and people being more likely to stay on their mains to try to get Thunderforged variants. Alts are vitally important for high end guilds.

4) Being "rare" on 25 and "rarer" on 10 doesn't feel rewarding, just random and inconvenient. Example of a rewarding model is Heroic Elite Protectors of the Endless, or most of Ulduar.

5) It doesn't really fundamentally make sense for better item level loot to randomly drop from a boss. See above examples - there's no difference in effort required and it's very susceptible to RNG.

6) This is not enough of an incentive, by any means, for guilds to transform from 10 to 25. If anything, this seems like a bandage to stop further hemorrhaging of 25 man guilds. In fact, the added potential loot drama and effort by officers may even cause the breakup of more 25 man guilds than the creation of them.


This pretty much summarizes everything I wanted to post here. Not a good design, I'd rather stick to the current design honestly.


7) Potentially destroys offspec gear. "Oh hey I'll take that for my 2nd spec." "Nope, sorry, it's Thunderforged and it's 6 item levels higher. All the healers still need it."
MVP - World of Warcraft
100 Night Elf Druid
14915

Too late in the terms of the game. Forcing your entire raiding population to shrink or suddenly grow is a terrible idea to do in the middle of the expansion and simply will not happen. Not sure where people get the idea that Blizzard would make a change like this anytime soon let alone in the middle of an expansion. Ghostcrawler has been quoted multiple times he would have loved a 15 man raid but the game is far to old to make such a drastic change to the core part of this game.


We survived a forced re-sizing going into Burning Crusade. We survived the addition of 10s in WOTLK. We survived the Cata change making 10-mans the new hotness over 25s. We're surviving the slow decline of 25s as a viable raid option. We would survive a huge shakeup in raid size going to 15s. However, all the big transitions have to happen at expansions when there is enough plasticity in the system (people coming, going, and leveling) that allow for planning out the transition.
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