10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Worgen Druid
17805
01/23/2013 03:05 PMPosted by Prohibition
As you said it's far more common to see 10 man raiding guilds than 25, simply because it's too easy.

/boggle
90 Troll Mage
12310


This is true. But pulling either way, the way to "fix" one format or the other is not to incentivize it so much that people do, in fact, feel compelled to leave their preferred format.

There are plenty of potential creative solutions to make recruiting and managing 25s easier than it is now. Instead, they offer loot incentives. It doesn't actually address the problem.


Oh, believe me, i agree with you.

As a 40 and then 25man raider for 8 years, i find this to be a terrible solution. I was simply pointing out that the guy had flawed logic. Either way, he's probably just a troll.


You're in a top tier guild; so you dont have many issues with 25 man raiding. It's guild like ours in the lower ranks of raiding that struggle to field even 25 mans that need a leg up real bad.
90 Orc Shaman
13550
01/23/2013 02:55 PMPosted by Crithto
The addition of Thunderforged items also have benefits for both 10- and 25-player raids. For instance, if a raid group is stuck on boss #5 and their members have all the viable upgrades from previous bosses, going through those bosses again to work on #5 can now bring added bonuses. We think this makes these efforts much more fun and rewarding.


In my experience, this never happens. A raid group is never working on boss #5 with the entire raid having every possible upgrade from bosses 1-4. Especially on 25 man. Very rarely are we working on boss #5 where even ONE of the previous bosses has no upgrades anymore.

I'll grant you that this increases the chance of getting meaningful drops off previous bosses, but the scenario you present here as justification for it is a little off.



That is flawed logic. That is like saying "people were playing 25man back in ICC because people wanted to play 25man. Democracy has spoken."

At that point blizzard did not "let nature take its course," but rather they intervened.


This is true. But pulling either way, the way to "fix" one format or the other is not to incentivize it so much that people do, in fact, feel compelled to leave their preferred format.

There are plenty of potential creative solutions to make recruiting and managing 25s easier than it is now. Instead, they offer loot incentives. It doesn't actually address the problem.


"Feel compelled to leave their preferred format." Interesting. This raises the question - what exactly makes 10s their preferred format?
100 Undead Priest
17125
01/23/2013 09:00 AMPosted by Crithto
This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups.


Also, this change will make 25man raiding more difficult to manage. With a larger overflow required for 25man raids, more management is required to move people in/out of the raid group as they need loot. By adding a rare chance at an item upgrade, you are basically making it so that people will never want to step out for a boss (unless they are one of the few lucky ones to get a Thunderforged item).

TLDR; This change will make the logistics of 25man raids even more challenging due to the problems it will cause managing overflow.
90 Troll Druid
11620
Suggestions from earlier:

- Lesser Charms rewarded to players after defeating current-tier bosses in a 25man setting. Normal: 5. Heroic: 10 (or 3|7).
- Thunderforged Items are guaranteed to drop. When the server decides which loot has dropped, it will always pull 1-3 TF'd items. (100%, 15%, 3%). Non-guaranteed TF'd loot still has a chance to drop for each subsequent item (given it is rare enough going live).


If you want a true incentive (gear is a major player in this argument), you need to make the incentives truly valuable to a 25man raider. Why not make preparing for raids easier? Lesser Charms rewarded from bosses would help those with multiple toons. Guaranteed TF'd drops will not provide BiS items for everyone right away. From what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong), the tems will be similar to "of the ________"? So, RNG stats. Then they need to drop at TF'd items, so more RNG. Bettering our RNG doesn't not "solve" anything. Unless you guarantee it, having immediate/tangible results to draw the players into a larger raiding group simply will not happen.
Edited by Cyous on 1/23/2013 3:13 PM PST
90 Draenei Death Knight
10440
Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.


Your darn right it'd feel like a slap to the face if you gave 25 man better loot, I hate 25 man, I refuse to play it, I love 10 man simply cause to me it's more difficult to complete, in 25 man only thing you really gotta worry bout is players, but if you get an actual good 25 man team of players then 25 man is a breeze, while 10 man you got alot less to work with, and most the time 10 man spawns the same amount of adds as 25 man maybe a few less but no where near enough to make up for the other 12 dps 25 man has.

I don't care how ya go about making players want to play 25 man but giving them better loot will just hit a nerve on many 10man players, myself included
100 Orc Shaman
HC
19350

Getting better loot has always been a part of this game and in Patch 5.2 the variety is being increased. We think this is a good thing. However, calling 25-player raids less favorable in unfounded and an unfair assessment. Tons of players would love to do 25s, but the coordination and effort to do so is more difficult with very little additional reward. 10s aren't more popular because the entire community agreed they're more fun, it's just a simple case of effort versus reward.


So you reward the people who don't put more effort into 25m(Regular raiders) by making it even more "logistically" annoying for the true backbones of 25m(Officers/Raid Leaders). I see...
90 Pandaren Monk
0
I don't understand this move. The vast majority of raiders are in a 10m environment, why would you boost the 25 (therefor hurting 10m) when the vast majority of raiders raid in a 10m raid team. It doesn't make any sense. Tick off the many to please the few.

I have done 40m, 25m, and 10m raiding and I enjoy 25m but as a guild leader I do not have the officer core or wish to put up with the BS that is 25m raiding. More than 2x the drama and so many more leadership squabbles.

The evolution from 25s to 10s was clear, why mess with the evolution.
90 Troll Mage
12310
01/23/2013 03:12 PMPosted by Poena
This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups.


Also, this change will make 25man raiding more difficult to manage. With a larger overflow required for 25man raids, more management is required to move people in/out of the raid group as they need loot. By adding a rare chance at an item upgrade, you are basically making it so that people will never want to step out for a boss (unless they are one of the few lucky ones to get a Thunderforged item).

TLDR; This change will make the logistics of 25man raids even more challenging due to the problems it will cause managing overflow.


Yep - the Elegon trinket causes enough problem as is; now the chance for an item like the boosted Elegon trinket will introduce more raid drama.
90 Human Warlock
6290
Can someone explain how this is fair to 10man raiding? (Having TF gear drop more frequently in 25M)
100 Human Paladin
9230
Someone a few pages back mentioned the idea of making cross-realm raiding possible to make it easier for 25 man raiders to get a raid together. If I'm thinking right, the only reason we can't do that NOW is because it would cause issues with realm first achievements and the like, assuming half a raid is from another server.

I think a simple change to the realm first achievements could fix this. Just make it so 75%-80% of the raid must be from the same server for it to count for the achievement. This would work similarly to how getting guild achievements works; ie: requiring 8 of 10 members of a raid to be guilded to get guild credit for a kill. Take the same idea, make it so you need 20 players of the 25 to be in the same realm for it to count. Maybe even take it down to 70%, meaning 17-18 players.

While some groups would not be eligible for achievements in a group, due to having too many cross realm players, they could still get their loot, individual achievements, and have fun raiding in the way they want to raid [25 man].

I recognize that not every group would be able to find a large amount of players off-realm, but a good amount will, and groups could always look for recruits cross realm using the forums or other mediums.

--------------------------------

If Blizzard were to add an incentive like this on top of doing that, I think it would be fine. It's still just RNG, and even if 1 piece were guaranteed to drop off the end boss of a raid or something like that, it would not give 25 man raiders a huge advantage over 10 man raiders in terms of gear, but would still be a little bit of a reason to be willing to attend a 25 man raid or join a 25 man raid group, even if it is a combination of 3 realms working together in the same group.

Thoughts?
90 Human Warlock
12355
I'm a player who prefers 10 man raiding. I prefer it for the following reasons:

- It's a more intimate environment. There's hierarchy, but there is less of it. I feel like less of a peon.

- It's an environment where my strengths, as well as failures, make more difference.

- I play on a high-end gaming laptop, but the game still performs better with fewer people. I get glitches and lag on world bosses. I never get them in our 10 man raid.

- I dislike the visual and audio clutter of characters, spells, pets in 25 man raiding. I find the 10 man raiding environment less cluttered and cleaner.

I know that some people prefer 25 man raiding. We just lost a great tank because he prefers to raid in a more progressed 25 man guild.

What I don't understand is why people who prefer 25 man raiding can't sit down and organize their 25 man raids. Gearing is already much faster in 25 mans.

Why do they need STILL more advantage?

I like the addition of the Thunderforged items. However, I very much dislike their increased drop rates for 25 man raids. It's already much more likely that an item will be useful (and not disenchanted) in a 25 man.

We don't need still more artificial boosting of 25-man content so that people who prefer 10 man raiding can feel like crap for sticking to it.

The real problem with organizing 25 man raids is dead server communities that you're doing nothing about, and which CRZ isn't helping. People who want to run 25 mans can do so easily on servers with high populations, but you're charging folks $25 per character to move.
Edited by Elocyn on 1/23/2013 3:21 PM PST
90 Human Mage
0
Crithto, could you pass this idea on to the dev team?

Instead of making Thunderforged gear a random chance to drop off a boss, make each boss drop a "Thunder King Token" that can be used to upgrade gear to Thunderforged quality once enough are turned in.

10-man could drop 1 token per boss, 25-man could drop 2 tokens per boss. This still allows players to upgrade gear gradually while they are stuck on a boss but have all available loot, and allows 25-man raids to do so faster than 10, without punishing either group through an RNG system.
100 Blood Elf Monk
24795


You're in a top tier guild; so you dont have many issues with 25 man raiding. It's guild like ours in the lower ranks of raiding that struggle to field even 25 mans that need a leg up real bad.


Either every single one of my posts has been ridiculously unclear, or everyone is reading them incorrectly. Possibly the former.

I have nothing but sympathy for you, it sucks running a 25man guild nowadays even in the top 10, i can only imagine how bad it is a bit further down the rankings.

25man recruitment sucks right, logistically loot distribution has always been a nightmare while maintaining a large roster, a problem which is exacerbated by the introduction of yet another needless tier of loot inflation. Managing 25 people with unique real life obligations, goals, strengths and weaknesses sucks.

I am all for incentivising 25mans, i just agree with the last guy i quoted about LOOT not being the way to do it. This loot change which just further complicate and tax leadership in 25man guilds, particularly the mid-level ones.
100 Orc Death Knight
12860
01/23/2013 02:55 PMPosted by Crithto
Crithto, will using the 5.2 equivalent of Elder Charms grant a chance at Thunderforged Loot or will it be exclusively limited to drops?

Yes, bonus rolls in 10- and 25-player raids will also afford you a chance to receive a Thunderforged item.

Hypothetically speaking, say a boss had 13 items that can drop from him. He doesn't drop any tier. How many of those 13 items would be marked that they can be thunderforged? All 13? only 4 of those 13? etc.

Hypothetically, yes, all 13 of those non-tier items would have a chance to be Thunderforged.

Why must you introduce an artificial incentive that promotes a less favorable format for the majority of players? And by less favorable, I mean by simply looking at how many guilds raid 10 vs 25.

Getting better loot has always been a part of this game and in Patch 5.2 the variety is being increased. We think this is a good thing. However, calling 25-player raids less favorable in unfounded and an unfair assessment. Tons of players would love to do 25s, but the coordination and effort to do so is more difficult with very little additional reward. 10s aren't more popular because the entire community agreed they're more fun, it's just a simple case of effort versus reward.

There are two main points we're trying to address with this change:
  • Raiding in 10- and 25-player dungeons already provides the same item level rewards for everyone. Engaging in the logistics of the larger raid format, however, we feel should be rewarded and the slight increase in chances to receive a Thunderforged item in 25-player is our effort to strike a better balance between both raid sizes.
  • The addition of Thunderforged items also have benefits for both 10- and 25-player raids. For instance, if a raid group is stuck on boss #5 and their members have all the viable upgrades from previous bosses, going through those bosses again to work on #5 can now bring added bonuses. We think this makes these efforts much more fun and rewarding.

  • From Twitter:
    Will there be a visual to indicate you're wearing Thunderforged gear or just the iLvl difference?

    There won't be any visual effects, Thunderforged is a tag much like "Heroic" and indicates that the item is slightly better than its Normal/Heroic counterpart.

    We're still going through your feedback and really do appreciate the things you've shared. Please keep it coming.


    forget this go back to the good old days of 40 man raids and 20 mans....
    100 Blood Elf Warlock
    17685
    Random chance items isn't a fix to disparage between 10s and 25s. Need something static, not something that is just going to cause user burn out(Always after BiS).Besides, making BiS items a random roll on an already random loot drop is just a plain bad idea. Back to the drawing board.
    Edited by Demonic on 1/23/2013 3:20 PM PST
    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    16230
    01/23/2013 02:55 PMPosted by Crithto
    Getting better loot has always been a part of this game and in Patch 5.2 the variety is being increased. We think this is a good thing. However, calling 25-player raids less favorable in unfounded and an unfair assessment. Tons of players would love to do 25s, but the coordination and effort to do so is more difficult with very little additional reward.


    Whoa whoa, hold on. 'Very little additional reward'? In 10 mans atm, a boss that drops tier (Which just so happens that most of them drop the sha-touched weapons as well) forces a tier drop to take the place of one other item on that boss's loot table. So if a boss drops 13 items total (Excluding the tier pieces), the chances of seeing that item are extremely lower in 10s since we are only seeing one item out of that set. As opposed to 25's seeing...what? 3-4 items in that window, plus 2-3 tier pieces? 25's already have the advantage of getting certain loot drops at an expedited rate. I mean, the chances of ever seeing a certain piece of loot on a raid boss's loot table is EXTREMELY slim (Win the lottery slim), unless you are lucky.

    Now, on top of all that, you are giving them more loot diversity, on top of more RNG-based loot diversity? Is this really the best solution to bringing them close together? Even then with all that aside, if people want to do 10s as opposed to do 25s, let them. If people personally want to do 25s bad enough, they will seek out other 25-man guilds and apply to them. Others however, like myself, want to raid 25s. But, Id prefer to raid with nine other good friends of mine that I get along with, do different things with, and most importantly, we help and work together more cohesively than most 25s I've ever been in. I prefer that, more so than seeing that trinket or sha-weapon I want have a higher chance to drop. What is really wrong with that?

    Its like someone said earlier in the thread, the reasons 25's shrank is mostly due to the fact that people would rather raid with friends/family in tight-nit groups. Rather than raiding with 7-8 good friends, 10-12 people you cant really stand, and probably 4-6 people (as that person said) you'd like to see drown in a 2 ft. puddle of water. You cant fix/stop the path of least resistance, and forcing people to feel compelled to put up with means of game-play they do not enjoy is a very terrible design choice.

    <3,
    Myr.

    PS: Oh, forgot this bit..."STOP WITH THE OBSESSIVE USE OF RNG!" Give us more gradual goals that we can work towards for a much more enjoyable (and earned) end result.
    Edited by Myrianda on 1/23/2013 3:22 PM PST
    90 Troll Druid
    11620
    01/23/2013 03:16 PMPosted by Kneegromance
    Can someone explain how this is fair to 10man raiding? (Having TF gear drop more frequently in 25M)

    It's not supposed to be fair.
    100 Night Elf Hunter
    11780
    Someone a few pages back mentioned the idea of making cross-realm raiding possible to make it easier for 25 man raiders to get a raid together. If I'm thinking right, the only reason we can't do that NOW is because it would cause issues with realm first achievements and the like, assuming half a raid is from another server.

    I think a simple change to the realm first achievements could fix this. Just make it so 75%-80% of the raid must be from the same server for it to count for the achievement. This would work similarly to how getting guild achievements works; ie: requiring 8 of 10 members of a raid to be guilded to get guild credit for a kill. Take the same idea, make it so you need 20 players of the 25 to be in the same realm for it to count. Maybe even take it down to 70%, meaning 17-18 players.

    While some groups would not be eligible for achievements in a group, due to having too many cross realm players, they could still get their loot, individual achievements, and have fun raiding in the way they want to raid [25 man].

    I recognize that not every group would be able to find a large amount of players off-realm, but a good amount will, and groups could always look for recruits cross realm using the forums or other mediums.

    --------------------------------

    If Blizzard were to add an incentive like this on top of doing that, I think it would be fine. It's still just RNG, and even if 1 piece were guaranteed to drop off the end boss of a raid or something like that, it would not give 25 man raiders a huge advantage over 10 man raiders in terms of gear, but would still be a little bit of a reason to be willing to attend a 25 man raid or join a 25 man raid group, even if it is a combination of 3 realms working together in the same group.

    Thoughts?


    Make the cross server on current content only 25 man raiding so that 10 mans can not use it and make it easier for the harder to recruit format.

    More gear is not the issue since people who play 25 mans like it because they want to play that format not for the gear of course.
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