10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Pandaren Monk
12100
Cool idea.
100 Human Priest
14395
My question is that of usefulness of the Thunderforged item if it drops and no one in your 10-man crew can use it.

Considering that in a 10 man group your comp is smaller and in some cases a entire armor type won't be used. If you run the normal raid and the only time you've seen these upgrades are on that armor type. It totally makes it worthless. On 25-mans that problem is less so simply because you have more people and a more diverse comp.

As it is, it gets kinda annoying when my guild is progressing and loot drops that no one can use or can only use for a off spec that has little to no gear/love. So it ends up DE'd.

I kinda wish there was a way that we could have something that would only drop what the comp could use. But that would require a great deal of programming(headaches). I do understand that the coins can help with that, but quite more often than not gold drops from them. Which is no fault of its own. But one would think that as we progress through the expac that the coins would have greater effect(better chance) to drop loot on lower ilvl raids. Just a thought.
82 Goblin Shaman
12575
The ilvl of T15 is overinflated, reign it in. The gap between LFR and Normal gear is going to cause issues down the line, as well.

LFR: 502
Normal: 515
Normal TF: 521
Heroic: 528
Heroic TF: 534

These numbers make more sense, I don't see why Normal T15 needs to be > Upgraded T14 Heroic - the raiders with that gear are not going to care about Normal T15 gear for longer than a few weeks. At the very least, LFR needs to be closer to Normal.
Edited by Twixaroo on 1/23/2013 3:22 PM PST
90 Troll Mage
12310

I think a simple change to the realm first achievements could fix this. Just make it so 75%-80% of the raid must be from the same server for it to count for the achievement.


No. A couple of good tanks or a couple of good healers can make all the difference in a server first for a mediocre realm.

E.g. there are many servers who havent killed Sha on heroic yet. With your suggestion, nothing prevents a guild in a mediocre realm working on Sha from getting help from say someone in Blood Legion to help them get their own realm fast. Why would someone in BL help this mediocre guild? Maybe one of the officers in this mediocre guild has an officer who has a boy friend in BL.
100 Undead Priest
17125
Very disappointed, though not terribly surprised. Nobody in my 25 man is happy about this and many would prefer you not implement it. You could have had the same effect by giving 25 man raiders an extra coin per week without adding complexity to an already over-complicated loot system.

The most direct comparison to this proposal are the crystalized firestones and legendary fragments from Firelands. Both had higher drop rates (or where supposed to) in 25 mans. Neither had any impact on stemming the flow from 25s to 10s.

The thought process seems to be that the invisible hand of increased drop rates will guide people towards 25s. Invisible hands aren't enough. If you want to preserve 25s you will need obvious and easy to see benefits, prestige, or quality of life improvements. Benefits, prestige, or QoL. Any of the three will be sufficient. Prestige and QoL go a lot further than loot.


Fantastic post.

As a 25man guild and raid leader I fully agree. As the person who has spent more time outside raiding than anyone else who doesn't run a 25man guild, I can say this: I DO NOT WANT LOOT, I WANT MY TIME BACK to enjoy the game I love... raiding.

Give me guild flask/potion cauldrons. Give me easier to make feasts that also award 300 stats.

Give me group teleports. Hearding 10 cats is easy, but hearding 25 takes forever.

Give me the ability to engage my overflow players (allow them to spectate raids at a delay (~15sec).

Give me the abillity to trail new players more easily (limited x-realm current raid invites).

Give me the ability to VP cap again from raids (this used to be something we got that was only recently taken away in MoP).

Give me the ability to earn charms in raids.

Let me raid casually if/when I want. In WotLK I could do a 10man whenever I want and not worry about it getting in the way of my 25man. Even having a loot lockout on this would be fine. If worried about abusing this, make it so that you can only run 1 loot free 10man raid a week. 25man raiders love raiding, which is why they do it, but giving them the ability to raid socially with their friends would be a HUGE BOON.

Give me and my guildies their spare time back. If you want something that will truly help my guild, I can promise you the ability to advertise freedom to play the game how you want will do more than any bonus loot can do.
Edited by Poena on 1/23/2013 3:24 PM PST
90 Human Warlock
12355
01/23/2013 03:19 PMPosted by Cyous
It's not supposed to be fair.

It's a "screw you" to players on small realms, and to players who prefer 10 man raiding.

They want our $25 to move to a server where 25 man raiding is possible.

Then, they want us to feel like crap unless we actually raid 25 man.
90 Pandaren Monk
16665
I'd really like to see a response to the core issues being presented here, namely the fact that:

a) This doesn't really do anything to solve the actual problem of 25man guilds

and

b) This actually makes things more difficult for those leading 25man guilds.

Back in Cata you introduced the flexible raid size mechanic to assist 25man guilds during period of low attendance, but without being able to utilize this in heroic content the mechanic is almost entirely worthless. Removing this restriction would give a more positive gain to 25man progress (and in turn, loot) than adding a brand new mechanic.

More loot, especially more loot that's on a very unreliable system, is not the answer here.
Edited by Nahela on 1/23/2013 3:27 PM PST
01/23/2013 02:55 PMPosted by Crithto
Crithto, will using the 5.2 equivalent of Elder Charms grant a chance at Thunderforged Loot or will it be exclusively limited to drops?

Yes, bonus rolls in 10- and 25-player raids will also afford you a chance to receive a Thunderforged item.

Hypothetically speaking, say a boss had 13 items that can drop from him. He doesn't drop any tier. How many of those 13 items would be marked that they can be thunderforged? All 13? only 4 of those 13? etc.

Hypothetically, yes, all 13 of those non-tier items would have a chance to be Thunderforged.

Why must you introduce an artificial incentive that promotes a less favorable format for the majority of players? And by less favorable, I mean by simply looking at how many guilds raid 10 vs 25.

Getting better loot has always been a part of this game and in Patch 5.2 the variety is being increased. We think this is a good thing. However, calling 25-player raids less favorable in unfounded and an unfair assessment. Tons of players would love to do 25s, but the coordination and effort to do so is more difficult with very little additional reward. 10s aren't more popular because the entire community agreed they're more fun, it's just a simple case of effort versus reward.

There are two main points we're trying to address with this change:
  • Raiding in 10- and 25-player dungeons already provides the same item level rewards for everyone. Engaging in the logistics of the larger raid format, however, we feel should be rewarded and the slight increase in chances to receive a Thunderforged item in 25-player is our effort to strike a better balance between both raid sizes.
  • The addition of Thunderforged items also have benefits for both 10- and 25-player raids. For instance, if a raid group is stuck on boss #5 and their members have all the viable upgrades from previous bosses, going through those bosses again to work on #5 can now bring added bonuses. We think this makes these efforts much more fun and rewarding.

  • From Twitter:
    Will there be a visual to indicate you're wearing Thunderforged gear or just the iLvl difference?

    There won't be any visual effects, Thunderforged is a tag much like "Heroic" and indicates that the item is slightly better than its Normal/Heroic counterpart.

    We're still going through your feedback and really do appreciate the things you've shared. Please keep it coming.


    Thanks for the info.

    As a 10m raider, having more rng in my loot really stings though.

    As it stands, I've yet to see a sha-touched weapon (dagger or fist), in fact I've yet to see a dagger of ANY form drop, EVEN in lfr. Same for the vanq chest token. None. Our mage got his on a bonus roll. My bonus rolls, spent weekly, have, as of yet, failed to produce a single weapon / token. QQ.

    If you're adding another rng factor to the loot, are things going to change with the "standard" loot? Or am I facing double the rngimp factor?
    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    13160

    There are two main points we're trying to address with this change:
  • Raiding in 10- and 25-player dungeons already provides the same item level rewards for everyone. Engaging in the logistics of the larger raid format, however, we feel should be rewarded and the slight increase in chances to receive a Thunderforged item in 25-player is our effort to strike a better balance between both raid sizes.
  • The addition of Thunderforged items also have benefits for both 10- and 25-player raids. For instance, if a raid group is stuck on boss #5 and their members have all the viable upgrades from previous bosses, going through those bosses again to work on #5 can now bring added bonuses. We think this makes these efforts much more fun and rewarding.



  • Crithto, the problem is that you're creating a "solution" to something that is not and has never been the problem. There's a great many people that would love to be raiding 25-man. The issue is NOT that there are not enough raiders to fill 25-man guilds. The problem is that there aren't enough people who want to RUN the raids because of the administrative issues.

    Giving some slightly better iLevel gear out doesn't address that problem at all. It doesn't make 25-mans easier to run, easier to organize, easier to maintain. In all likelihood such a small change won't even affect recruiting at all.

    You have to realize - running a 25 man is a royal pain in the rear end. You need to come up with a solution to THAT problem. If anything, causing more loot drama is going to make it HARDER to administrate the 25-man, not easier.

    I think your development team needs to take a step back and look at their proposed solution with fresh eyes and try to be honest with themselves about what the actual issues are and how their proposed solution fixes it.

    Yeah, WoW is a game about loot and progressing your character, as GC has said previously. But not every problem can be solved with epics.
    Edited by Evannder on 1/23/2013 3:29 PM PST
    100 Night Elf Hunter
    11780
    Very disappointed, though not terribly surprised. Nobody in my 25 man is happy about this and many would prefer you not implement it. You could have had the same effect by giving 25 man raiders an extra coin per week without adding complexity to an already over-complicated loot system.

    The most direct comparison to this proposal are the crystalized firestones and legendary fragments from Firelands. Both had higher drop rates (or where supposed to) in 25 mans. Neither had any impact on stemming the flow from 25s to 10s.

    The thought process seems to be that the invisible hand of increased drop rates will guide people towards 25s. Invisible hands aren't enough. If you want to preserve 25s you will need obvious and easy to see benefits, prestige, or quality of life improvements. Benefits, prestige, or QoL. Any of the three will be sufficient. Prestige and QoL go a lot further than loot.


    Fantastic post.

    As a 25man guild and raid leader I fully agree. As the person who has spent more time outside raiding than anyone else who doesn't run a 25man guild, I can say this: I DO NOT WANT LOOT, I WANT MY TIME BACK to enjoy the game I love... raiding.

    Give me guild flask/potion cauldrons. Give me easier to make feasts that also award 300 stats.

    Give me group teleports. Hearding 10 cats is easy, but hearding 25 takes forever.

    Give me the ability to engage my overflow players (allow them to spectate raids at a delay (~15sec).

    Give me the abillity to trail new players more easily (limited x-realm current raid invites).

    Give me the ability to VP cap again from raids (this used to be something we got that was only recently taken away in MoP).

    Give me the ability to earn charms in raids.

    Let me raid casually if/when I want. In WotLK I could do a 10man whenever I want and not worry about it getting in the way of my 25man. Even having a loot lockout on this would be fine. If worried about abusing this, make it so that you can only run 1 loot free 10man raid a week. 25man raiders love raiding, which is why they do it, but giving them the ability to raid socially with their friends would be a HUGE BOON.

    Give me and my guildies their spare time back. If you want something that will truly help my guild, I can promise you the ability to advertise freedom to play the game how you want will do more than any bonus loot can do.


    Probably one of the best posts on the issue.

    of course it will be likely ignored.
    100 Worgen Warlock
    13905
    01/23/2013 03:25 PMPosted by Nahela
    Back in Cata you introduced the flexible raid size mechanic to assist 25man guilds during period of low attendance, but without being able to utilize this in heroic content the mechanic is almost entirely worthless. Removing this restriction would give a more positive gain to 25man progress (and in turn, loot) than adding a brand new mechanic.


    Removing that restriction makes it too easy for guilds to drop to 10 man to bypass bosses that are clearly easier on 10 man and would thus put too bright a spotlight on the tuning imbalances. It would help to stop guilds from splintering apart on those bosses though. Hi Ragnaros!
    Edited by Zey on 1/23/2013 3:31 PM PST
    90 Human Warlock
    12355
    01/23/2013 03:23 PMPosted by Poena
    Give me the ability to engage my overflow players (allow them to spectate raids at a delay (~15sec).

    Very much agreed.

    Any raiding guild that wants to regularly fill a raid, whether 10 man or 25, will need to have overflow members. Currently, there's no way to engage them. We can't even quest while benched, unless we drop the group.

    We would use the spectate feature on a large majority of our raid nights. I have no idea why Blizzard thinks it would be used by few people.
    Edited by Elocyn on 1/23/2013 3:31 PM PST
    90 Worgen Mage
    15160
    First, I wanted to say two things. I am one of two guild leaders of a 25 man guild that has survived since BC, and know full well what that has entailed the past few years and on a personal level I like this new system. From the perspective of the 25 man raiding point of view however, it is crap. I am going to explain in my own words, though I believe others have said similar or the same things.

    First of all, for me personally, the idea of previous bosses still having a chance to drop loot that would be an upgrade to me is really attractive. The number of farm bosses that we kill each week that drop absolutely nothing for me and the raid make those fights in some respects rather average, and simply glorified trash fillers while we get to the boss we are trying to kill.

    So my initial reaction as I was reading this post, was of interest and liking the idea. Then I thought about how this would affect the raid and I am very concerned. Two concerns really.

    The first concern that I have is that this loot system is no different than the current system just with a higher item level. 25 mans have for some time now, and 10 man raiders will agree, had an easier time gearing people than the 10 mans. Many drops are simply easier to come by in the 25 man version and the number of loot drops has been tuned to make it more likely that 25 man raiders gear faster.

    This new loot system, is exactly the same. These items still drop in both 10 and 25 and in the same case as the current system it will be somewhat easier to get geared in the 25 man version than the 10 man version.

    What gets me with this is that this same system is one we have actually been using now since T11 - and it is quite clear that it has made no difference. Even the additional loot drop added back in for mists has not helped. So, if you could explain the reasoning you have that this will help the situation I am all ears cause frankly, at the very least case scenario, this does nothing at all to help fix the problem.

    Now my second concern is an even greater one. It is this concern that I believe has now convinced me that no one in WoW development actually runs a 25 man guild. And I do not mean participate, but actually do the leg work in the organisational areas such as myself and fellow GL has done the past few years to stay afloat.

    See in order to run successful progression oriented 25 man guild you have to maintain a floating roster anywhere between 35 and 40 people to cover the nights things happen, and let's be honest, real life tends to take precedence. In order to keep this roster viable, and this is by the way one of the most time consuming aspects of running the guild, we have to ensure that those people not always in on a progression boss, still have opportunities to get gear. This is so that newer players just joined and maybe on trial, or current members still lacking gear, are able to rotate in to bosses where current members do not need gear.

    In fact the call on vent for each and every single boss is "Who needs gear off this boss?" - get names then "who doesn't?" and then those people when possible get sat for those people coming in. This works quite well. It gives those players that may be raiding on every boss a break should they choose to do so, or at the very least an opportunity to help fellow raiders out by offering their spot on a boss that no longer drops upgrades for them.

    This new system throws that out the window.

    Now that there are rare drops that are significant upgrades that drop off these bosses, it is highly unlikely that during progression anyone in the raid is going to have "all the upgrades off that boss". This means that when it comes time to trying to rotate people through our farm bosses no one is going to want to sit for them.

    This means that now as GL's we have to decide who sits. We are going to have to come up with some fair way to do so in order to alleviate the concerns of members missing raid bosses which means more work for me and my fellow GL and on top of that it also means that those that we do choose to sit have to have the situation where they have been forcefully sat on bosses that drop gear for them and be unable to choose to participate.

    So As far as I can tell, this system will, "best case scenario" have no effect whatsoever on the raid size situation, and the worst case scenario, and one I do not see not happening to be frank, is that you have just single handedly made the running of 25 mans more difficult.

    I have to give props to you guys. Never, after waiting years for a response to this situation, and now months of you saying you had ideas in mind, did it occur to me that the situation you were going to try would be so bad that you would actually make matters worse than they already are.
    100 Undead Rogue
    16640
    01/23/2013 02:55 PMPosted by Crithto
    The addition of Thunderforged items also have benefits for both 10- and 25-player raids. For instance, if a raid group is stuck on boss #5 and their members have all the viable upgrades from previous bosses, going through those bosses again to work on #5 can now bring added bonuses. We think this makes these efforts much more fun and rewarding.


    If this change is being done so that the guild(s) that is(are) stuck on a boss with all possible upgrades can defeat said boss then I must ask why is the stacking debuff system not being considered? There are feats of strength for each of the final instance bosses that provides incentive to defeat that boss without it.

    If it is simply a matter of fun and reward then there are many alternatives to this. For example vanity items such as pets, mounts, model changers, transmog gear, etc. These alternatives are not required in order to progress through an instance, and yet they can be fairly amusing and very rewarding.
    Edited by Ivankov on 1/23/2013 3:40 PM PST
    85 Night Elf Druid
    9060
    I can't raid on anything but LFR anymore due to time constraints (blah to real life), but "back in teh day" (Wrath through early-mid Cata) I raided 10's happily. I liked tens. LFR killed my guild raiding ability though. No harm no foul, life goes on.

    I don't see this fixing 25's though. It doesn't address logistics, it increases drama, it won't increase the possible recruit pool (there's no way this is enough to drag people out of LFR), and it dinks around with balance issues down the road (remember gear inflation due to ToC? I do....)

    No, after watching this dance for years now, the only real way to save 25's is to kill 10s. Seriously. Kill 10's, drive people back into 25 whether they like it or not, or take the ticky route put serious thought into easing the logistical requirements for 25's instead of just band-aiding the loot tables.
    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    14115
    Not a fan. Too man versions of items becomes more annoyance than fun.
    90 Troll Druid
    11620
    It's a "screw you" to players on small realms, and to players who prefer 10 man raiding.

    They want our $25 to move to a server where 25 man raiding is possible.

    Then, they want us to feel like crap unless we actually raid 25 man.

    If you're making a big deal over something a large potion of the 25man raiders in this thread are posting won't have any effect on the decline of 25man raiding guilds, then you would probably make a big deal over 25man raiding getting something like cauldrons back.

    This change won't change anything.
    90 Troll Hunter
    15805
    This new system is quite sad. You are adding even more random elements to the loot system. At least with the Valor Upgrade system there was a level of certainty and it was our decision when or what item to be upgraded.

    The only downside to the VP upgrade system was that you would have a very difficult time gearing up for offspec.

    Although the random elements, the RNG, of the game are fun but too much of it is can be boring and hazardous. We didn't enjoy the randomized stat loot back in T11 because it forced us more or less to keep the same roster of raiders who still needed that particular item with the particular stats.

    But now, it's every boss and every piece of loot (not counting tokens) which will even force guilds more to bring the same people to raid over and over until everyone is fully upgraded.

    No more random elements please, this is getting out of hand.
    100 Human Paladin
    15460
    Right now 25-man raids get more loot per player than 10-man raids. This hasn't changed altered the trajectory of the number of 25-man raiding guilds.

    Functionally speaking, how is "more thunderforged" different from "more loot" - which hasn't really solved the problem to date, has it?

    You're billing this as a significant change but really it's no different from slightly faster legendaries, slightly more loot, etc.

    Honestly, this change feels like the latest in an effort to hold two contradictory design views simultaneously:

    1) 10-man raiding is just as hard as 25-man raiding and deserves similar rewards.

    2) 25-man raiding is harder than 10-man raiding and deserves better rewards.

    You then proceed to play a bunch of linguistic games about just how 10-man raiding is 'just as hard' or how 25-man raiding is 'harder', but the reality is that until you settle on (1) or (2) you aren't going to be able to produce a real solution, since you haven't identified whether or not there's actually a real problem.
    Edited by Branar on 1/23/2013 3:38 PM PST
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