10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Worgen Warrior
7680
I really like this idea, but I'm interested in the actual percentage chance you have to get these items. Are we talking like 5 or 10% of items being Thunderforged in 10 mans? Then like 20% for 25 mans? I'm sure you guys haven't nailed down the specifics yet, but could you give us a ballpark?

I'm still not sure it covers the main issues with putting together 25 mans though, there are plenty of guilds that would like to do 25 mans I'm sure, but on a lot of servers it's damn near impossible to find 25 people who are on the same schedule as you and are competent. I know on my server it's tough getting 10 people together on the same schedule, let alone 25, especially on the Horde side. I know a few people that would love to raid but don't bother trying anymore and hardly ever even log in because it's so hard to put together even a 10 man and they can't afford a server transfer or don't want to leave their friends on their current server.

I think the real problem with 25 mans is that all the people that want to do them are spread too thin between servers.

This may help somewhat with the problem, at least as an incentive for those that are able to put together 25 mans but don't because 2 10's are easier to coordinate. But I think the real answer for fixing this issue(and a few others) is merging some servers together to give some of these medium and low population servers some actual raiders to recruit. I'd imagine on most servers there are only a handful of guilds that even have the ability to run 25 mans(right number of people on the same schedule).

My server is pretty lousy on the raiding totem pole, but there are still some 80 or 90 servers worse than mine, I'd imagine if you were to combine some of them there would be a lot more raiders to choose from and more people would be doing 10 and 25 mans.
90 Troll Mage
12310
First, I wanted to say two things. I am one of two guild leaders of a 25 man guild that has survived since BC, and know full well what that has entailed the past few years and on a personal level I like this new system. From the perspective of the 25 man raiding point of view however, it is crap. I am going to explain in my own words, though I believe others have said similar or the same things.

First of all, for me personally, the idea of previous bosses still having a chance to drop loot that would be an upgrade to me is really attractive. The number of farm bosses that we kill each week that drop absolutely nothing for me and the raid make those fights in some respects rather average, and simply glorified trash fillers while we get to the boss we are trying to kill.

So my initial reaction as I was reading this post, was of interest and liking the idea. Then I thought about how this would affect the raid and I am very concerned. Two concerns really.

The first concern that I have is that this loot system is no different than the current system just with a higher item level. 25 mans have for some time now, and 10 man raiders will agree, had an easier time gearing people than the 10 mans. Many drops are simply easier to come by in the 25 man version and the number of loot drops has been tuned to make it more likely that 25 man raiders gear faster.

This new loot system, is exactly the same. These items still drop in both 10 and 25 and in the same case as the current system it will be somewhat easier to get geared in the 25 man version than the 10 man version.

What gets me with this is that this same system is one we have actually been using now since T11 - and it is quite clear that it has made no difference. Even the additional loot drop added back in for mists has not helped. So, if you could explain the reasoning you have that this will help the situation I am all ears cause frankly, at the very least case scenario, this does nothing at all to help fix the problem.

Now my second concern is an even greater one. It is this concern that I believe has now convinced me that no one in WoW development actually runs a 25 man guild. And I do not mean participate, but actually do the leg work in the organisational areas such as myself and fellow GL has done the past few years to stay afloat.

See in order to run successful progression oriented 25 man guild you have to maintain a floating roster anywhere between 35 and 40 people to cover the nights things happen, and let's be honest, real life tends to take precedence. In order to keep this roster viable, and this is by the way one of the most time consuming aspects of running the guild, we have to ensure that those people not always in on a progression boss, still have opportunities to get gear. This is so that newer players just joined and maybe on trial, or current members still lacking gear, are able to rotate in to bosses where current members do not need gear.

In fact the call on vent for each and every single boss is "Who needs gear off this boss?" - get names then "who doesn't?" and then those people when possible get sat for those people coming in. This works quite well. It gives those players that may be raiding on every boss a break should they choose to do so, or at the very least an opportunity to help fellow raiders out by offering their spot on a boss that no longer drops upgrades for them.

This new system throws that out the window.

Now that there are rare drops that are significant upgrades that drop off these bosses, it is highly unlikely that during progression anyone in the raid is going to have "all the upgrades off that boss". This means that when it comes time to trying to rotate people through our farm bosses no one is going to want to sit for them.

This means that now as GL's we have to decide who sits. We are going to have to come up with some fair way to do so in order to alleviate the concerns of members missing raid bosses which means more work for me and my fellow GL and on top of that it also means that those that we do choose to sit have to have the situation where they have been forcefully sat on bosses that drop gear for them and be unable to choose to participate.

So As far as I can tell, this system will, "best case scenario" have no effect whatsoever on the raid size situation, and the worst case scenario, and one I do not see not happening to be frank, is that you have just single handedly made the running of 25 mans more difficult.

I have to give props to you guys. Never, after waiting years for a response to this situation, and now months of you saying you had ideas in mind, did it occur to me that the situation you were going to try would be so bad that you would actually make matters worse than they already are.


This and a thousand times times this. +100 for a solid post.
100 Dwarf Warrior
16090
01/23/2013 03:07 PMPosted by Dysheki
The most this idea (and any "better gear" possibility) can do is to increase demand of players to play in the platform; and I have not seen a single post in this thread in which anyone has said "great! This will get me to move out of 10-man raiding and into 25-man raiding."

You have to understand I don't want to go back to 25 man raiding. It was fun, but to consistently watch so many people play under their potential is painful. I don't see why the benefits for 25 man raiding have to be so good to alienate the 10 man players.

I'm not saying these changes are good, in fact I think they're bad, but you have to understand the fine line they have to walk to not completely piss off a large chunk of their player base.


The question is how you incentivize people to take on the additional burdens of 25-man raiding when 10-man is allegedly* equivalent and requires significantly less administration and logistical burden. I am not advocating an incentive based on "better" loot. But that's what Blizz has apparently chosen and clearly missed.

* I say "allegedly" not to engage in any debate as to which format is harder but because I do not buy the farce that they are the same.
90 Troll Hunter
15805
Here is my suggestion for what it's worth:

Keep the current VP upgrade system but substitute the currency for something else. That was not only you keep the randomized elements of the game to minimum but you also address the number one legitimate complaint which is not be able to gear for OS or buy any VP gear.
90 Human Warlock
12355
This new loot system, is exactly the same. These items still drop in both 10 and 25 and in the same case as the current system it will be somewhat easier to get geared in the 25 man version than the 10 man version. What gets me with this is that this same system is one we have actually been using now since T11 - and it is quite clear that it has made no difference.

Very much agreed. It's additional discrimination against 10 mans, but it is the same kind of discrimination that has already existed. It's likely it isn't actually going to help.

Whereas, it's guaranteed to make life for those who prefer 10 mans a bit more miserable.

01/23/2013 03:31 PMPosted by Virtutis
This means that when it comes time to trying to rotate people through our farm bosses no one is going to want to sit for them.

This is insightful. I can see that being a problem for us, as well, whether 10 man or 25 man.
100 Night Elf Hunter
11120
It's a "screw you" to players on small realms, and to players who prefer 10 man raiding.

They want our $25 to move to a server where 25 man raiding is possible.

Then, they want us to feel like crap unless we actually raid 25 man.

If you're making a big deal over something a large potion of the 25man raiders in this thread are posting won't have any effect on the decline of 25man raiding guilds, then you would probably make a big deal over 25man raiding getting something like cauldrons back.

This change won't change anything.


I think cauldrons, HGWT added back to 25 man lockouts are fine.

I am all for helping 25 man raiders who run them getting things that help them in ways that do not impact 10 mans in a negative way.

I wonder based on reading some of the posts if this change will not actually hurt 25 man guilds even more than help them by adding in more drama about being sat for bosses or simple loot drama for the new loot.
31 Blood Elf Warrior
9860
I think that the reason most of your raiders are 10 man raiders is because there's absolutely zero reason for progression guilds to run 25 player when 10 player gives you the same loot with fewer people to manage.

I think we need real reasons to run 25 mans. As it stands, I don't know a single guild on any server I play on (since I don't play on any server with a US top 10 guild) that run 25 man raids.

People aren't running 25 man versions until they can 10-15 man them just for the achievements (see ICC 25 man now, which can be 6-7 manned easily).

The design of 10 man dropping the same loot as 25 man was the death of regular 25 man raiding. I've seen a few guilds try to do it again, but they simply can't get the people anymore. No one's interested in 25 man again. Why deal with that many more people to roll for loot against when you can get the same loot in 10 man and only fight 1 person?
90 Troll Druid
15435
What about the challenges of raiding 10 man?

Our loot variance is higher, because our player needs are more specific yet the loot tables are specific leading on average to slower itemization.

The encounter balance is still sketchy and quite often harder on 10 mans than 25s because of the likelyhood of having specific specs in your comp. Disc priest on ambershaper, paladins on Bladelord, Spirit kings and Garajhal, various soakers or hard CC on Will.... List goes on. There are statistical analysis that can be found on things like number of attempts till a first kill on 10 and 25 man that quite often prove these difficulty spikes. It is better than it was when it first came up in Cataclysm... However we also have 11 classes now.

10 man guilds also require for key members to not only be able to play offspecs such as dps healers and dps/tanks, but excel at these roles because the impact on the raids dps can actually be the deciding factor on a wipe. If 5.2 has zero 1 tank or 3 healer fights, I guess I can retract this statement.
90 Worgen Druid
17805
01/23/2013 03:37 PMPosted by Olestinos
The question is how you incentivize people to take on the additional burdens of 25-man raiding when 10-man is allegedly* equivalent and requires significantly less administration and logistical burden. I am not advocating an incentive based on "better" loot. But that's what Blizz has apparently chosen and clearly missed.

The problem is that I don't think there really is a way to do it. They can keep #@!@@@!@@-footing around and creating new ideas, but in all honesty they are just creating new problems for both formats (i.e. bench raiders who get in for farm content to get some gear because main raiders don't need it - but main raiders will always need in now).

They could give better loot for 25s, but then 10s would be mad. They could give a greater gearing rate for 25s, but they already do that with extra drops per raider - and that has yet to fix anything (and all they are doing with this change is increasing the amount of good gear a 25 gets relative to a 10 - same thing, different way).

This 'controversial' idea really isn't controversial at all. It's more of the same. They need to !@#$ or get off the pot and decide what they want; do they want 25s to thrive? You better make 25s your premier raiding tier. You want both to do well? You're going to have to watch 10s dominate the raiding field.
100 Tauren Druid
19725
01/23/2013 03:42 PMPosted by Furycrab
Our loot variance is higher, because our player needs are more specific yet the loot tables are specific leading on average to slower itemization.


Variance is higher but there's less overall competition when an item does drop. That I believe is the tradeoff.
100 Night Elf Priest
17525
People defend progression 10s for the same reason people defended slavery - they were getting a cut, or they hoped to one day get their cut.

Using slavery as an analogy for a raiding format in a video game? Classy.
Edited by Synariel on 1/23/2013 3:46 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
16690
This is no different then just flat out raising the item level for 25 Man Raiders across the board, it gives them a clear and evident advantage in gearing over 10 Man Raiders.

This is not the right direction to try and save 25 Man Raiding. If the community really wants to raid 25 Man they'll raid 25 Man.


Just like 25m guilds did when they introduced this change in Cataclysm, right? By giving the 25s more loot?

Yeah, it worked real well, ask all the scores and scores of 25m raiding guilds that fell apart during Cata how well "making them drop more frequently" worked out as an incentive.

I think you can rest easy -- they won't be going back to the WotLK structure anytime soon; they've already expressed they care too much to offend folks like you in the process.
90 Pandaren Monk
14030
First, I wanted to say two things. I am one of two guild leaders of a 25 man guild that has survived since BC, and know full well what that has entailed the past few years and on a personal level I like this new system. From the perspective of the 25 man raiding point of view however, it is crap. I am going to explain in my own words, though I believe others have said similar or the same things.

First of all, for me personally, the idea of previous bosses still having a chance to drop loot that would be an upgrade to me is really attractive. The number of farm bosses that we kill each week that drop absolutely nothing for me and the raid make those fights in some respects rather average, and simply glorified trash fillers while we get to the boss we are trying to kill.

So my initial reaction as I was reading this post, was of interest and liking the idea. Then I thought about how this would affect the raid and I am very concerned. Two concerns really.

The first concern that I have is that this loot system is no different than the current system just with a higher item level. 25 mans have for some time now, and 10 man raiders will agree, had an easier time gearing people than the 10 mans. Many drops are simply easier to come by in the 25 man version and the number of loot drops has been tuned to make it more likely that 25 man raiders gear faster.

This new loot system, is exactly the same. These items still drop in both 10 and 25 and in the same case as the current system it will be somewhat easier to get geared in the 25 man version than the 10 man version.

What gets me with this is that this same system is one we have actually been using now since T11 - and it is quite clear that it has made no difference. Even the additional loot drop added back in for mists has not helped. So, if you could explain the reasoning you have that this will help the situation I am all ears cause frankly, at the very least case scenario, this does nothing at all to help fix the problem.

Now my second concern is an even greater one. It is this concern that I believe has now convinced me that no one in WoW development actually runs a 25 man guild. And I do not mean participate, but actually do the leg work in the organisational areas such as myself and fellow GL has done the past few years to stay afloat.

See in order to run successful progression oriented 25 man guild you have to maintain a floating roster anywhere between 35 and 40 people to cover the nights things happen, and let's be honest, real life tends to take precedence. In order to keep this roster viable, and this is by the way one of the most time consuming aspects of running the guild, we have to ensure that those people not always in on a progression boss, still have opportunities to get gear. This is so that newer players just joined and maybe on trial, or current members still lacking gear, are able to rotate in to bosses where current members do not need gear.

In fact the call on vent for each and every single boss is "Who needs gear off this boss?" - get names then "who doesn't?" and then those people when possible get sat for those people coming in. This works quite well. It gives those players that may be raiding on every boss a break should they choose to do so, or at the very least an opportunity to help fellow raiders out by offering their spot on a boss that no longer drops upgrades for them.

This new system throws that out the window.

Now that there are rare drops that are significant upgrades that drop off these bosses, it is highly unlikely that during progression anyone in the raid is going to have "all the upgrades off that boss". This means that when it comes time to trying to rotate people through our farm bosses no one is going to want to sit for them.

This means that now as GL's we have to decide who sits. We are going to have to come up with some fair way to do so in order to alleviate the concerns of members missing raid bosses which means more work for me and my fellow GL and on top of that it also means that those that we do choose to sit have to have the situation where they have been forcefully sat on bosses that drop gear for them and be unable to choose to participate.

So As far as I can tell, this system will, "best case scenario" have no effect whatsoever on the raid size situation, and the worst case scenario, and one I do not see not happening to be frank, is that you have just single handedly made the running of 25 mans more difficult.

I have to give props to you guys. Never, after waiting years for a response to this situation, and now months of you saying you had ideas in mind, did it occur to me that the situation you were going to try would be so bad that you would actually make matters worse than they already are.


This is a huge issue. The swapping of players on farm bosses is one thing that makes benched players happy to still be in the guild. This is a great point that this idea completely tramples on that practice and will make raiders have to sit more because of it.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
16690
01/23/2013 11:03 AMPosted by Daleus
But aren't they leaving because of burnout ? What fix can you do to 25man raiding that fixes burnout ?


Have items drop off of heroic bosses that 25m guilds don't dust because they're all "side-grades". Nothing makes a 25m guild feel better than to put 5 weekends into a heroic boss, kill it...and dust all the drops, then return to Org/SW and be surrounded by facerolling puggers wearing all the same gear that's ~4 ilvls away from their own.

Big. Deal.
90 Draenei Warrior
17510
This is going to get buried, but I have to try. You're not addressing the lack of loot in 10 player. It's so easy for a 25man to gear their raid compared to 10. When a boss drops 10+ pieces of loot and he's only dropping two items there are some pieces that end up being very, very rare. This is from someone that only did 25 until MoP, I realize there are other issues out there that affect 25 and maybe even 10 but this one is the hardest. I've rolled a coin on every Heroic Spirit Kings kill + the loot from the boss and have yet to see a shield, most guilds get to the point where they stop doing the instance because they have all they need (there are very few "bis" pieces in the zone). At the same time, our paladin has rolled a coin every week on Normal and Heroic on Garajal, as well as many times in LFR, trying to get the shield and has yet to see it.

3+ months looking for an item? Maybe this is Normal for 10m and since I'm relatively new to it I don't really know. What I do know is that I miss 25m for gearing my raid in a relatively smooth and quick manner.
Edited by Vantro on 1/23/2013 3:52 PM PST
100 Draenei Shaman
13660
The drop rates are clearly stated as being higher drop rate and they clearly stated that 25 man will have a higher ilvl and that was the problem they fixed when they got rid of when they changed 25 and 10 being the same when they changed it. Why make the same mistake only to force people to do 25 man again.

Because "Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we've seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn't surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. "

Although that statement totally contradicts this statement slightly. so this another thing they stated also, "we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders."

Plus this is also something that Blizzard stated too, "To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding."

Why make tier gear if Thunderforged gear is going to be better then it? as stated in this comment from Blizzard. "tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all."
90 Dwarf Hunter
14545
You know what kills 25s more than equal items? About 60% of the servers barely being able to support one 25m guild if even that.

If you want to save 25m raids, then you need to take these wastelands servers and combine them so the people on those servers actually have a player base to create a guild.

People that want to raid 25m leave their server once their guild dies because there is virtually no chance to make a new one, or they just abandon hope and make a 10. There are quite a bit of servers that cannot realistically field enough competent people to have a 25m guild.

No one transfers to hellhole servers. As more and more people leave, creating let alone maintaining a 25m becomes increasingly difficult. Don't want to merge servers because someone might lose a name? I seem to remember offering free transfers off some incredibly large servers back in original WOW to avoid queue times and server stability issues and people jumped at it.

What are these amazing problems that prevent this type of transfer/merger? I honestly want to know, because Blizzard keeps avoiding this issue with blanket WILL CAUSE PROBLEMS.
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