10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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100 Gnome Warlock
3515
01/23/2013 07:39 PMPosted by Waraila
Not if you make them mutually exclusive... aka if you get one, you can't get the other.


Then there's no point in splitting them.
100 Troll Shaman
19975
This is a terrible idea. People already pass on non bis pieces constantly in raiding, and some stuff even gets de'd before people will take upgrades because they want first dibs on BIS. This stupid system will make people do the same thing on top of the differences between N and H, and giving a higher chance to 25s does nothing for 25s.

Loot isn't the problem, the problem is how hard it is to coordinate 25 vs 10 when 10's get ALL OF THE SAME REWARDS. Loot in 10's is bull, sometimes you get loot that nobody can even use for weeks on end from bosses with massive loot tables. 25's has a higher chance of not only getting what it wants, but someone needing what drops.

Make the achievements seperate. Server first 10 should not = Server first 25. They aren't even in the same ballpark.

Making mount achievements and the like will just make things complicated for those that are mount collectors. Server first achieves being different would be a better step in the right direction.
100 Tauren Druid
21845
01/23/2013 07:58 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Then there's no point in splitting them.


yes there is.

10 man have their own realm firsts... and indications that they got it in their preferred format.
25s have their realm firsts etc etc ...

Basically means that people don't feel pressured to be in 10 or 25 for realm firsts or for progression sake as each has their own individual progression.
90 Tauren Druid
12135
This is disappointing
90 Tauren Paladin
16065
I don't think you can truly call it a bonus for 25-mans if bad RNG makes it possible to actually get a worse drop rate than 10-mans.
Edited by Baleoglol on 1/23/2013 8:06 PM PST
100 Gnome Warlock
3515
01/23/2013 07:45 PMPosted by Lucynda
As it stands right now they do not gear up faster.


You couldn't be more wrong. 25's have a significantly faster gear rate than 10s because of how RNG favours the larger distribution availability. Compressing a 25m loot table to less than half of its distribution points causes what's essentially a chokepoint for 10's because of how some items have a significantly higher likelyhood of dropping than other items on the loot table (i.e. the cloaks from stone guard).
90 Pandaren Warrior
13225
I don't mind it at all as long as we get some good LFR gear it will be fun:)
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
Speaking as a 25-man raider, I think the philosophy is all wrong. You guys say you don't want to return to ICC where 25s got better gear because that would be a slap in the face to 10 man raiders, but the rise of 10 mans happened BECAUSE of changing away from the ICC system.

You should be incentiveizing 10 man guilds deciding, "Maybe we should go the extra mile and try to put together 25 mans". This is not enough. If Thunderforged was incredibly rare and only available in 25 man, that'd be something 25s are looking for. This is not enough to draw people away from 10s.


Yeah I'm not sure why they didn't just make Thundeforged drops 25 only. Make them very rare but exclusive to 25's.
100 Draenei Priest
11180
Im not the biggest fan of this Thunderforged loot system... Because of its RNG factor.

However I think it would be a good idea if there was a small chance for a consumable item to drop that would grant the bonus ilvls to the item, not a chance the item procs as it drops.

It still makes raiding early tiers exciting.

Edit: Obviously they would only be valid to the difficulty they dropped in
Edited by Halelujah on 1/23/2013 8:10 PM PST
90 Night Elf Warrior
10905
All we wanting was separate achievement. to acknowledge the extra effort from 25mans. We don't really care about ilevel, we just want people to notice the extra effort we put in. giving is a 5% chance at a slightly higher ilevel does not distinct or give credit for our extra effort in a matter that matters.

Edit people need to also read that this does NOT effect Tier pieces, so this thunderforged stuff is really only for off pieces. probably in full PiS you will not be using thunderforged over your 4 or 2 piece. This is a huge mistake and greatly reduces the "bonus" from thunderforged.

To summarize this in no way supports the extra effort 25mans put in.
Edited by Iqqi on 1/23/2013 8:12 PM PST
100 Gnome Warlock
3515
01/23/2013 08:07 PMPosted by Indyana
Yeah I'm not sure why they didn't just make Thundeforged drops 25 only. Make them very rare but exclusive to 25's.


They said why. They don't want to go back to making 25m the only progression format as that would be the same problem just in reverse, and will likely cause more damage because there's a reason why 25m raiding was fled like a sinking ship by those of us that moved to 10m raiding in Cataclysm.
Edited by Bomdanil on 1/23/2013 8:16 PM PST
100 Gnome Warlock
3515
01/23/2013 08:10 PMPosted by Iqqi
To summarize this in no way supports the extra effort 25mans put in.


You mean the effort that the 20-24 non-leaders in the run have nothing to do with?
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
Yeah I'm not sure why they didn't just make Thundeforged drops 25 only. Make them very rare but exclusive to 25's.


They said why. They don't want to go back to only making 25m the progression format as that would be the same problem just in reverse, and will likely cause more damage because there's a reason why 25m raiding was fled like a sinking ship by those of us that moved to 10m raiding in Cataclysm.


If the Blues are correct and this change means that a 25 man Guild will have a higher iLevel on average at the end of each Tier it amounts to the same thing as making Thundeforged exclusive to 25's with a lower drop chance.

25's will be the format for those looking to min/max so you don't know what you're talking about. It's all numbers in the end. The only reason to allow ANY Thunderforged to drop in 10's is to minimize the already overwhelming flood of forum tears.
Edited by Indyana on 1/23/2013 8:19 PM PST
100 Troll Shaman
19975
Yeah I'm not sure why they didn't just make Thundeforged drops 25 only. Make them very rare but exclusive to 25's.


They said why. They don't want to go back to making 25m the only progression format as that would be the same problem just in reverse, and will likely cause more damage because there's a reason why 25m raiding was fled like a sinking ship by those of us that moved to 10m raiding in Cataclysm.


I don't necessarily agree with this. If Thunderforged are a small chance to drop (in my head I'm thinking those crystals in Firelands small), the idea that every 10 would feel forced into 25 would be kinda silly. That's like saying you HAVE to upgrade all your gear. I'm 15/16H and I don't even cap valor every week, let alone would worry about 6 ilvls difference on some off pieces on a possibly rediculously low drop rate.

What I do agree with is this wouldn't fix anything. A bigger problem is the rewards being shared between 10 and 25, such as the server first achieves.
Edited by Subtitles on 1/23/2013 8:20 PM PST
90 Worgen Mage
15160
01/23/2013 08:12 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Yeah I'm not sure why they didn't just make Thundeforged drops 25 only. Make them very rare but exclusive to 25's.


They said why. They don't want to go back to making 25m the only progression format as that would be the same problem just in reverse, and will likely cause more damage because there's a reason why 25m raiding was fled like a sinking ship by those of us that moved to 10m raiding in Cataclysm.


Except that it makes the loot system identical to how it is now, just with a different item level. You cannot portray this as some kind of incentive to 25 mans, and in particular where GC was specifically saying this was their idea to help 25 mans, when the idea boils down to more loot, available in both sizes. That's not a raid size related feature at all - it is just a feature.

Putting it under the category of "helping 25 mans" is either someones idea of a joke, or the developers are just incredibly naive. I am not sure what is worse. Maybe they couldn't think of anything to actually help 25 mans and this will be the "feature" that is now pointed to for the next 2 years while they await the "Results" and see if it helped.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455


They said why. They don't want to go back to making 25m the only progression format as that would be the same problem just in reverse, and will likely cause more damage because there's a reason why 25m raiding was fled like a sinking ship by those of us that moved to 10m raiding in Cataclysm.


Except that it makes the loot system identical to how it is now, just with a different item level. You cannot portray this as some kind of incentive to 25 mans, and in particular where GC was specifically saying this was their idea to help 25 mans, when the idea boils down to more loot, available in both sizes. That's not a raid size related feature at all - it is just a feature.

Putting it under the category of "helping 25 mans" is either someones idea of a joke, or the developers are just incredibly naive. I am not sure what is worse. Maybe they couldn't think of anything to actually help 25 mans and this will be the "feature" that is now pointed to for the next 2 years while they await the "Results" and see if it helped.


They're trying to keep the min/maxers in their 25's or get the ones that left to go back. Your average player in a 10 man Guild likes running things too much to give up their little fief.

Min/Maxers will flock to 25's for the same reason they spent a fortune on Epic cuts in DS.
Edited by Indyana on 1/23/2013 8:25 PM PST
90 Human Warlock
12355
01/23/2013 08:20 PMPosted by Virtutis
Maybe they couldn't think of anything to actually help 25 mans

An actual solution would be:

- consolidating realms - to make it even possible to HAVE 25-man guilds, which isn't feasible on many realms (without severely impacting the guild's skill level);

- free character transfers;

- cross-realm raiding.

All of this would eat into their $25 per character revenue from realm transfers. So this is not something they want to do.

Instead, they're trying to add incentives for people to be in 25 man guilds, which for most people, means... paying to transfer.
Edited by Elocyn on 1/23/2013 8:35 PM PST
90 Worgen Mage
15160
They're trying to keep the min/maxers in their 25's or get the ones that left to go back. Your average player in a 10 man Guild likes running things too much to give up their little fief.

Min/Maxers will flock to 25's for the same reason they spent a fortune on Epic cuts in DS.


But we have had this exact system now for 2 years, what does this system now add that the current one doesn't?
100 Gnome Warlock
3515
01/23/2013 08:25 PMPosted by Indyana
They're trying to keep the min/maxers in their 25's or get the ones that left to go back.


Which is not something they should be doing. The format needs to flourish because its enjoyable to do on its own merits, not because it's the only format that's considered acceptable for progression.
90 Worgen Druid
3490
01/23/2013 09:10 AMPosted by Anysia
This will not help bring back 25s.
Do you have a better solution?

I think it's a great idea. It's infinitely better than what they HAVE been doing to address it (ie NOTHING) so this, even if it fails miserably, is a step in the right direction.
separate raid lockouts is the correct answer, joint lockout killed 25man raiding far more than having same loot ilvl
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