10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Worgen Mage
15160
01/23/2013 08:34 PMPosted by Bomdanil
They're trying to keep the min/maxers in their 25's or get the ones that left to go back.


Which is not something they should be doing. The format needs to flourish because its enjoyable to do on its own merits, not because it's the only format that's considered acceptable for progression.


The current raiding loot system means that if you want the highest item level the fastest you do 25 man. This has been the case throughout Cataclysm and the current tier in Mists. If you were concerned about min/maxing, you did 25 mans.

The "slightly higher" chance for these items to drop on 25 man "might" entice a few players into that format, except if getting your loot faster and getting geared to higher item level faster is the same thing we have had going for 25 mans for 2 years - and hasn't worked - doing it with another name stamped on the package will not make any different.

If you want the 25 mans to grow a bit and not be declining there needs to be reasons for the average player to make the effort to try and form them. The possible chance that a better item might drop slightly more often in 25 man, held up against the difficulty of those players making and running a 25 man over a 10 man....?? That's a joke. What do you think people will pick? They will pick the same option they have been and clearly shown they have been now for 4 raid tiers.

The odd min/maxer who desires to try their luck in 25 mans for that slightly quicker item level is a it like saying "in 25 man we will now give you foo that gives 305 stats when you eat it instead of 300. Yes it is a minor increase, but for most people raiding they would just laugh at the change and go "pfft".

The only reason some of you aren't right now is because the item level increase is absurd and it has a interesting name, but to use a colloquialism, same !@#$ different package.
90 Tauren Warrior
0
Question: Will Tier15 be the same ilvl as Thunderforged? If not... that makes this post even more applicable.

This must surely be among one of the worst solutions to provide incentive to 25-player raiding. (I) There's an already-existing itemization "problem," but it's honestly okay as-is. Arguably, not even a problem. (II) The proposed model for Thunderforged items exacerbates that problem. (III) There's an easy fix to eliminate that problem and simultaneously make 25-player raiding more appealing. Will Blizzard do it?

TLDR version of below: This hinders 25-player groups in an attempt to help them because of BiS and relative upgrades in itemization

Onward.

(I) The "Problem" As-Is, i.e. Not Really a Problem

Itemization problems arise at the 10-player raid already, but they're really not that bad. It's more mosquito-bite level of nuisance in that a player's BiS list can be affected by a single world-drop item (e.g., a zone-wide drop in a raid or Galleon loot). In turn, a raider doesn't always look for the "relative" upgrade in gearing toward that BiS list based on any number of other factors, such as whether the raid is using FFA(main spec, that is) rolling, some DKP system, loot council, loot policy, whatever. The trouble stems from the nature of RNG, but has minimal impact on gearing choices as the game currently exists.

The issue usually takes the form of an ilvl difference. For example, Shaman has 489 ring that isn't his BiS, and a 496 ring that isn't his BiS drops. Additionally, the ring is still a relative upgrade for Shaman, but the ring is BiS for Priest. Assuming there's some incentive not to just grab every upgrade (whether it's just being cordial with fellow raiders in a random system like my guild uses, or some "cost" such as DKP), Shaman will likely feel some pressure (whether internal or external) to pass on the ring to Priest.

Less often, for players making a BiS list that excludes world drops, other items in the BiS list can change by including a world drop. Although excluding these types of items is the most pragmatic way to gear yourself (unless you already have one of them), secondary stat differences can make a significant enough difference to even warrant using different tier items. For example, a warrior on a heavily populated server would be hard-pressed to reasonably believe he would obtain 2x Strength DPS rings from Galleon, despite it being BiS pre-heroic.

(I experienced something similar to this myself by winning a heroic 502 wrist in MV that someone else could have used. It was an upgrade for me at the time relative to my 489, yet a regular 496 HoF zonewide drop was better than the 502. When the 496 finally dropped, I won it and now have a useless 502 wrist someone else could be using.)

The "problem" is that the raiding group may less efficiently gear itself, but that inefficiency is offset by whatever degree of relative upgrade someone acquires (especially in the case of the player reaching the final BiS piece). So the "problems" are de minimis and arguably not even a problem, whether 10 or 25-player. Of course, a 25-player raiding group will still experience them more (then shrug them off).

(II) Exacerbating the Problem such that the Problem Becomes a "Real" Problem

Without a certain degree of expectation to see a Thunderforged item drop, the proposed system will create more uncertainty in player gearing. In turn, it will also create more uncertainty in the raid group's gearing.

If pragmatic players are already dancing around multiple BiS lists from the existence of a single world boss (or some zone drop), what happens when there's a whole additional level in the hierarchy of items? The system becomes unwieldy for even these lowest-of-expectations players. Although the dream might be to have, for example, everything thunderforged besides Tier15 (as it will not be), that's simply not going to be a realistic expectation for gearing for a 25-player group. From the limited amount of information in the blue post, I'm suspect of it to some degree for a 10-player group.

For example, if Hunter wins Not-Thunderforged Bow, should he then pass Thunderforged Bow to the other hunters in his 25-player group when it drops? That doesn't seem likely if it's his BiS. The raid is basically "out" one Non-Thunderforged Bow. This example is intentionally clear-cut as a non-problem (or is at least arguably not an issue), so I'm going to shift things to the other extreme.

5 people in a raid use 2H Strength Weapons, 1 of which is TankDK. TankDK is nice and thinks the DPS should get their weapons first, or he's lucked out and gotten one from a coin. Whatever the reason, now the raid is looking at 4 people it needs a 2H strength weapon for. Dps-A wins Not-Thunderforged 2H Axe. Then the Thunderforged version drops. From the Hunter & Bow example, it seems an easy case for Dps-A to either be permitted to pursue the item again or feels no reason not to do so. (I tried to keep it simple and overlook the TG Warrior who would want 2 of them.)

But then we're left with 3 people pursuing the 2H Axe. The same process continues and the inefficiency has the potential to exponentially skyrocket. We're all aware of unfortunate RNG situations. Sometimes, them's the bones.

But here, Blizzard is proposing to add an additional RNG (emphasis on additional: another way in which you might get screwed-by-RNG on top of bad luck just because an item doesn't drop; it is an additional item that might not drop and might shuffle around the rest of your BiS gear).

So it's not just messing with an individual's thought process about how to gear themselves. It's messing with the raid's ability to effectively gear itself along the way, borderline necessitating some loot policy to juggle participation/worthiness/gearing specifically for acquiring "Thunderforged v. Non-Thunderforged Items".

The proposed model encourages individuals to join 25-player guilds, but it doesn't address additional considerations that go into an guild's decision to raid at the 10-player level, including itemization. (I'm setting aside entirely the issue of "recruiting more smart people," and focusing entirely on itemization.) Getting upgrades may single-handedly provide incentive to raid at the 10-player level for players that share none-to-few others for competition.

For example, a lone hunter in a successful 10-person raid with no other agility DPS has little incentive to jump up to 25-player raiding with 4 other agility DPS. Currently, the 25-player raid's "extra" chance at loot, subject to a 1/5 chance of winning that loot, does not outweigh the 100% guarantee that if the loot drops, the hunter will win it.

I think the issue boils down to this demonstration: would a less-than-statistically savvy hunter make that switch because of the "increased" chance for an item to be Thunderforged in 25-player? I think going from "all the loot" to "1/5 chance at loot" would make even this kind of person at least give pause before agreeing. (The supporters of the proposed Thunderforged system in this thread leave me much room to ponder that, though.)

I've typed too much by this point, but the same ilvl difference issue that currently exists (but is rare in practice and not actually that bad) is also made into a serious problem. What happens when an item would give one person a huge jump up 2 "levels" of ilvl (in current terms, say 476 to 496) against a person who has that item in their BiS list but is only a minor upgrade (say 489 to 496 minor upgrade, or 496 to 496 sidegrade)? More importantly, what if the item impacts someone's BiS list with its inclusion/exclusion? The gray area that is raid gearing widens unnecessarily.

(III) The Easy Fix, or Sending a Snake to Catch a Mouse

(Credit to Caffeen on this solution)

The solution is quite simple. If a player has a Non-Thunderforged item, then acquires a Thunderforged version of that item, provide them some way to allow the rest of the raid to roll on a Non-Thunderforged version of the item.

Example: Shaman receives Club of Spellmagix. Then Thunderforged Club of Spellmagix drops.

Example Solution: Thunderforged Club of Spellmagix has a clickable effect that is usable for the duration that the item is tradeable (i.e. 2 hours from boss kill, only to other members of raid group). This click prompts a confirmation window. The player confirms. Badabing-badaboom. He now has a soulbound Thunderforged Club with a tradeable Non-Thunderforged version that the raid can roll on/distribute/bid on/whatever. (at the risk of being obvious: only tradeable to the players in the raid that were present at the recent kill which dropped the thunderforged version)

In effect, this provides exactly the incentive Blizzard wants RE: 25-player raids, without the newly created problems (or to be more accurate, formerly-okay problems that now raise serious concern).

Edit: (To be even more accurate, it's not really "without" these problems as much as it is trying to minimize their emergence)

I personally think a different scheme altogether is best. It makes much more sense to me (and would be more entertaining) to allow a player to "Thunderforge" an already existing item (subject to whatever restrictions they want on the items that may be thunderforged, so not Tier15). By creating some kind of token to accomplish this task or start a quest for it (simple turn in? somewhat substantive quest? etc. = concerns), the player would know what his BiS list is without the thunderforged items. The player thus has more control over his fate and his raid's. As to how to start the process, that really depends on how often Blizzard would want us having thunderforged items, so they could just look at the drop rate of these items and weigh them against others, then magical formulae to determine the drop rate (concerning both frequency of drop and which boss drops it). E.g. it could be a high/guaranteed chance off some specific boss(es) or a much lower chance off lots of bosses. It could be a cool/fun lengthy process involving doing things in raid zones, or just some minimal turn-in step, or something in between.

Bottom line? I'm not opposed to the idea. It's a worthwhile effort to balance the 10 v. 25 raid problem. But it's fundamentally (statistically and logically) flawed without more fine-tuning than exists in OP.
Edited by Nevski on 1/23/2013 8:53 PM PST
90 Pandaren Warrior
16785
They're trying to keep the min/maxers in their 25's or get the ones that left to go back.


Which is not something they should be doing. The format needs to flourish because its enjoyable to do on its own merits, not because it's the only format that's considered acceptable for progression.


Which is why it was as popular to begin with in Wrath.

I really wish everyone could come out and be honest with themselves over this whole situation.

Blizzard's solution is to continue to try and push people into an unpopular format through bribery, rather than through fun. In doing so, they generate a situation where the loot drama queens will gravitate to the 25 man format causing more strife and problems and ultimately pushing even more players away from it. In addition it'll further increase the massive problem of mudflation in the game and put this expac on a gear inflation route larger than any other in the history of the game. (As I said in an earlier post, 78 Ilevels between heroic 5s and cutting edge after ONE raid tier.
Couple this with a VERY unhappy community after the announcement, and you've got a recipe for massive issues. (But hey, no competition coming out soon, so they get to act like they did at the start of Cata rather than making good business choices.)

From the CM posts tonight, they're actually going to go live with this insane idea, just like CRZ, which was released with multiple known game affecting bugs. Why in the world do we bother having a PTR again?
Edited by Dorrell on 1/23/2013 8:47 PM PST
90 Troll Druid
10425
01/23/2013 09:19 AMPosted by Helel
Even more RNG on top of RNG


This. There's enough RNG as it is.
90 Troll Hunter
14660
01/23/2013 09:00 AMPosted by Crithto
However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away.


So do a 25-man raid if that is what is fun to you. Why coerce people into a playstyle that the majority of players don't like anymore or they would still be doing them.

10-mans are more challenging in the sense that if so much as one person screws up, it can wipe the raid. They are easier to put together and maintain.

Don't bribe players to play a certain way that you think they should enjoy because you like it.
90 Night Elf Rogue
15205
After reading a few other people's responses, I have to agree that the best solution to bring back 25 player raiding is to allow more cross-server. I have friends all over the place that I've made over the years, and I'd certainly raid with some of them but I'm certainly not server transferring over and over.

Maybe you should allow cross server for all but the absolutely most current raid instance. For example in the current tier, you could enable cross-server 25-man raiding for MSV and HOF, but leave Terrace off the list as the current progression target. Honestly it's silly that there's all manner of cross-server functionality but I can't raid MSV with my friends even though progression guilds are well beyond it.
90 Human Priest
20530
I personally think a different scheme altogether is best. It makes much more sense to me (and would be more entertaining) to allow a player to "Thunderforge" an already existing item

this is the only i could possibly want the thunderforged system, and it's basically just valor upgrades, except there is a chance (higher in 25 man) to drop items that are already upgraded.
If I wanted to raid 25's I would, they just arent worth the time or effort it takes to do them on most servers. Merge the bottom 50 populated servers and you would go a long way into making 25 mans worth bothering with for those people.
90 Night Elf Warrior
10905
How was this controversial.... you did nothing. you helped farm big whoop. Between the current raiding atmosphere. the terrible server populations and the fact that you can transfer every 3 days. This in no way improves anything.

fail ghostcrawler.
Edited by Iqqi on 1/23/2013 9:22 PM PST
90 Human Paladin
13085
After reading a few other people's responses, I have to agree that the best solution to bring back 25 player raiding is to allow more cross-server. I have friends all over the place that I've made over the years, and I'd certainly raid with some of them but I'm certainly not server transferring over and over.

Maybe you should allow cross server for all but the absolutely most current raid instance. For example in the current tier, you could enable cross-server 25-man raiding for MSV and HOF, but leave Terrace off the list as the current progression target. Honestly it's silly that there's all manner of cross-server functionality but I can't raid MSV with my friends even though progression guilds are well beyond it.


Speaking personally, the problem is that this brings back 25-man raiding while doing very little to help 25-man guilds. Odds are it might even hurt, as people realize they can get their big-raid "fix" without having to make the logistical commitments that actually being a member of a 25-man guild entails.
90 Undead Priest
16410
What about the challenges of raiding 10 man?

Our loot variance is higher, because our player needs are more specific yet the loot tables are specific leading on average to slower itemization.

The encounter balance is still sketchy and quite often harder on 10 mans than 25s because of the likelyhood of having specific specs in your comp. Disc priest on ambershaper, paladins on Bladelord, Spirit kings and Garajhal, various soakers or hard CC on Will.... List goes on. There are statistical analysis that can be found on things like number of attempts till a first kill on 10 and 25 man that quite often prove these difficulty spikes. It is better than it was when it first came up in Cataclysm... However we also have 11 classes now.

10 man guilds also require for key members to not only be able to play offspecs such as dps healers and dps/tanks, but excel at these roles because the impact on the raids dps can actually be the deciding factor on a wipe. If 5.2 has zero 1 tank or 3 healer fights, I guess I can retract this statement.


Except the loot issue, none of these are issues of a 10man guild, but issues of all progression raid guilds. Not doing cutting edge progression, then none of these matter. Doing progression? Then these exact same problems are applied to 25man raids as well as 10man. Want to solve these problems like a 25man guild? Recruit more. Top end 25mans have players with mulitple raid ready alts as well as
90 Orc Shaman
13750
So do a 25-man raid if that is what is fun to you. Why coerce people into a playstyle that the majority of players don't like anymore or they would still be doing them.


That's not very accurate.

The majority of players may not necessarily like 10m more than 25m. It's just easier in terms of accessibility and difficulty.

I like Wendy's more than Jack in the Box. However, Wendy's is across town to the tune of a 25-30 minute overall drive, Jack in the Box is a block away. Guess where I go, usually, when I'm in the mood for a burger or whatever. It doesn't mean I like Jack in the Box more, just that Jack in the Box is less of a hassle.

Also, oftentimes people simply can't find 25 man guilds. Most servers seem to have several 10 mans at varying levels of progression. Those same servers often don't have anything in terms of 25 man anymore. This gives a person looking for 25s no real option except to transfer for something not guaranteed. Returning and newer players are similarly screwed if they want any sort of serious, stable 25 man raiding, especially the newer ones who don't have previous experience to show competence.
90 Goblin Mage
11395
This is a dumb idea Blizzard. Logically, fundamentally, and philosophically contradicting everything you've been saying. You wanted 25/10 to be equal, and it's already slanted as too easy for 25. People do 10 in spite of 25 being easier with more loot because dealing with 24 people is already too cumbersome. 100% it's harder to raid in a 10 man than 25 man, if one person screws up there's a far lower margin for error.

Downsize raids, and get rid of 25's. Problem solved.
90 Human Death Knight
13135
Damn your logic!

At this rate the only "massive" activity left in the game to justify even calling it an MMO is going after the pathetic world boss Sha of Anger on a weekly basis. Maybe Galleon if you are lucky to catch him once a month?

25 mans will soon only be the snore-fest LFR junk. We are all forced to do those to get Valor capped. Let the game be. Don't try to improve things. How dare you try and save 25 man raiding and preserve the epic feeling of actual "massive" battles.
90 Tauren Paladin
11300
01/23/2013 11:11 AMPosted by Dliver
This is silly - they should just adopt 15 mans across-the-board with the same loot and be done with it.


This.
50 Gnome Warlock
765
Speaking as somebody who founded, built up, and led a 25-man raiding guild for 2 years, Blizzard has completely missed the forest for the trees.

25-man raiding already offers better access to loot.

The problem of 25-man guilds is that the small number of people who want to raid 25-man cannot raid together, because the ever-shrinking population of WoW is spread across way too many servers. There are 3 fixes to this:

A. Cross-realm guilds.
B. Server mergers.
C. Eliminate the fee for server transfers.

One of these could be implemented immediately, although it would be unpopular with upper management. The other two are certainly feasible. These would be real solutions to the central problem.


This, so much and many times this. Why Blizzard's own internal development team doesn't grasp that logistical difficulties require a fix to the logistics, rather than to the content, I can't even begin to understand.
90 Night Elf Druid
9525
Just remove the shared lockout
90 Orc Rogue
9990
While i agree a 15m raid would solve the issue, i don't think they would take this route... just because. Maybe having a higher valor point cap for 25m content could be something to look into?. Kind of like the cap difference for conquest points between arena/RBG's. So total valor cap is 1500, 10m raids/dailies/daily heroic can supply only 1000, the last 500 be obtained from 25 man raiding or 10m hms. This would only work provided item level upgrades get brought back in. Probably a dumb idea just my 2 cents.

would also be required that 10hm and 25 raids have increased vp from boss kills to account for higher cap.
Edited by Gamëova on 1/23/2013 10:42 PM PST
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