10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Pandaren Shaman
14515
I'm a 25-man raider. I feel like this change will undermine 25-man raiding by making it "easier" than 10-man raiding, because gear does matter, and this change will generally give 25-man guilds more iLevel than 10-man guilds. This change will not make 25-man guilds easier to manage than 10-man guilds, but it will make 25-man guilds more likely to overcome iLevel checks (such as Heroic Garalon and Heroic Sha of Fear) than 10-mans. That's unfair from a progression standpoint. I want my 25-man guild to beat that 10-man guild to that boss because we're better than them, not because we were lucky enough to get more gear than them.

Isn't the RNG/luck element of raiding too high already? When my guild was working on Gara'jal, we had 0 pieces of tier gear, while other guilds had multiple people with 2-set bonuses already because they got lucky with Sha of Anger drops. That's dumb.

The solution? I have no idea. I just wanted to bring this up because it's a concern of mine.

Do I believe that this will increase the amount of 25-man guilds? No. The change simply isn't significant enough. A chance to get more iLevel is not going to encourage 10-man raiders to participate in 25-man raiding.

But I very, very much appreciate that you [Blizzard] are trying. 25-man raiding is definitely in a bad state right now. I feel that a big reason the WoW population is dropping is because the game has become "small clique online RPG", instead of "massively multiplayer".
Edited by Bergg on 1/24/2013 1:25 AM PST
For me there is multiple issues with this system :

10 and 25 has diffirences and while 10man is easier to get, some fights are made easier with certain class mechanics so if your raid comp doesnt have that, it is now more difficuly, chances are in 25 that you do have the required class mechanics. But since it is harder to put a 25man togheter since it requires more dedicated ppl blizz decided to give them a loot advantage to make up for it, while small it made 25man the better way to gear up. With this new system, it is yet again ANOTHER advantage which could break some 10mans to join 25mans cause both advantages togheter are too great.

Another issue is if a non-thunderforge item drops that is highly valued, alot of ppl wouldnt want the item just cause of what if next week the better version drops and they want that instead. It will create disapointements more than excitements in drops. The feeling of killing a boss only to see the inferior loot drop will be viewed as " Well we got screwed again " instead of " Nice, we got some more upgrades this week ".

I hope this system does not make it live.
100 Human Mage
19795
If you want to spice up early bosses, why not give them a small random chance to drop items off other bosses farther in like what we had in Naxx? I always enjoyed that aspect - it felt special to get an item before you are at the normal boss that drops it and it would cause less emo than the proposed system.
90 Orc Warlock
13430
A note on "if you like 25m so much, then shouldn't that be enough?"

If Blizzard reworked the Brawler's Guild and other solo content to drop Heroic raid level gear and be a viable way to get a full set of gear, then 10m would start to die off as well. Whatever the easiest path of resistance is, that's what most players will take.

But this is an MMO. You pay each month to play with other players (dead servers aren't something I want to get into, there are players who want merges but players who specifically rolled low pop for a reason). The more it becomes a single player game, the more I consider unsubbing. Why pay $15/month for a single player game with content updates every several months, when I can just play a single player console game for $40-60?

I think that's why Blizzard is trying to push RBGs, 25m raids, and not buckling on destroying server communities more than they already have been. The more you take the multiplayer aspect out of the game, the harder it becomes to justify why you're paying to play it.
90 Night Elf Warrior
13805
I don't think this is a great system, it really won't last and just causes bloat and increases frustration for members of a raid team that "share" interest in particular pieces of gear.

Look at gear like this: Critical vs. Non-Critical.

Critical would be weapons and such, tier pieces, and trinkets.
Non-critical: Neck, Back, Wrist, Waist, Feet, Rings and non-set Helms, Shoulders, Chests, Hands, Legs.

Critical: LFR/Normal/Heroic tags.
Non-Critical: LFR/10m, 25m/H10, H25.

The system you're introducing instead of causing bloat, would instead allow 25m/H10 to drop H25 Non-Critical gear. Keep the gear disparity within 10ilvls.

I love this game, but I don't understand you guys most of the time.
Edited by Meauxiq on 1/24/2013 2:40 AM PST
90 Human Warrior
10715
i personally dont have a problem with 25m vs 10m i would be happy in ether raid group ive done it before however in my situation our relm is a very small relm and most of the guilds raid 10m content because of this. blizzard can put all the bells and whistles in 25mans all they want it still wont change the fact that if you dont have the population to support larger raiding groups then it just wont happen. allowing 25mans to have a higher chance at thunderforged gear may persuade 10m guilds to return to 25m raiding on high pop servers but on low pop servers your not gonna see a significant change. the thing is now days most guilds find it much easier to put together a 10m group than a 25m.

maby this can be fixed if they decide to change the current 10/25 man system with a single 15 man system. it would be easier to balance than a 10m and easier to put together than a 25m
90 Human Death Knight
GSO
12240
01/23/2013 02:55 PMPosted by Crithto
Tons of players would love to do 25s, but the coordination and effort to do so is more difficult with very little additional reward. 10s aren't more popular because the entire community agreed they're more fun, it's just a simple case of effort versus reward.

It's this logic right here that should stop you right in your tracks with these sorts of changes. This is completely circular logic in what will be a revolving door problem.

You have players in 10 man raids wishing they could be 25 man. You add incentive to 25 man and now that player gets to do what he wants. But now, you have players in 25 man raids wishing they could be in 10 man raiding.

I've lost 2 players this expansion alone because they couldn't stand how slow the gearing process was in 10 man. To hear you say that 10 man is easier, to actually know that development feels that way seriously belittles the qualms and daily battles that a 10 man officer like myself face everyday. So what I dont have to recruit perpetually. I get to know that if at any point one of my 2 tanks doesn't show up, we stop progression completely because the chances of us having a viable progression ready 3rd geared player who can tank is slim to nil. I can't keep more than 12 people on my roster because I cant gear anymore than 12 people effectively.

25 mans have their troubles, but 10 mans have theirs to match. I've walked in both worlds and I've been leadership through it all. Thinking otherwise makes you a fool in my eyes - I don't care what color your text is.

Whenever there is TWO OPTIONS one will always be better.

This is a really tough fact for blizzard to accept apparently, but according to some of Ghostcrawlers tweets lately it seems to be catching on. (He mentioned that no matter how minute, players min/max talent choices.)

Guys, plain and simple, as long as you support 2 raiding platforms, you will have this problem. Good news though:

Right now, you still have most of the top end guilds operating on the 25 man platform - world wide. It's very clearly the clearest cut path to quick gearing which leads to faster progression.
You also have 10 man guilds progressing and gearing up fast enough to still compete and be a serious contender in raiding.

You have enough incentive enough for raiding in one platform or the other based on player preference. A change like this which penalizes a platform further is nothing more than you picking favorites and it WILL cost you subscriptions.

Leave it alone, it's fine.
Edited by Novahkane on 1/24/2013 3:06 AM PST
90 Human Warrior
10715
blizzard has stated that it is easer for them to balance the mechanics of a 25m raid than a 10m. this is why blizzard is so bent on getting raiders to return to 25m content.
Edited by Mazaia on 1/24/2013 3:20 AM PST
28 Gnome Mage
200
Just separate 10 and 25 man achievements and realm firsts. And make it so once a guild/player receives a realm first in one difficulty, they're ineligible for the other difficulties realm first.

I don't think the average player will lean towards 25 man raiding because "it has a slightly higher chance to drop thunderforged gear". I don't think they'll take this into consideration at all. Because if you can kill 2 more heroic bosses per week in a 10 man than the competing 25 man who's been having the raid leading and attendance issues that come with 15 extra players, the slightly higher chance to drop TF gear seems meaningless.
90 Troll Druid
11620
01/24/2013 02:59 AMPosted by Novahkane
You have enough incentive enough for raiding in one platform or the other based on player preference. A change like this which penalizes a platform further is nothing more than you picking favorites and it WILL cost you subscriptions.

Who is being penalized? Fun Fact: "Penalized" implies you are serving the negative consequences of your actions. If you want to get technical, one could easily claim 25mans are needlessly penalizing themselves for choosing 25man raiding because they offer very little reward for the sheer quantity of effort that goes with the choice.

So who is really being penalized?

A successful company will find ways to keep new customers as well as older customers. If we took at 25man raiding through this "business POV" why are 25man "losing costumers" to 10man raiding? As this thread has pointed out, the logistics are tough. In addition to just being harder to get the ball rolling, 10man raids offer the same rewards. How can 25man attract players away from 10man, for both newer and older players? Gear helps, but that's not the solution (which we've also stressed for ~38 pages, at the time of this post)

25man groups are simply harder to setup. They require the same amount of personal responsibly from player to player, regardless of what 10man raids claim. (Trying coordinating 24 other players, making all player work together in sync to achieve progression -- 10man is a joke when it comes to logistics). There is literally no incentive to keep 25man raids going, beyond the sheer will of the 25man raiding community. Who cares about gear when you're done with the tier? Aside from going full BiS (which is more of a preference than an actual incentive), very few players are thinking purely about Gear. It's all about getting the progression kill, the gear will eventually come with the progression and farm (Having the best gear available is different than having the best gear currently available to you).

Food for thought:
There are two options. 25man raiding and 10man raiding. 25man raiding is dying, no denying that. Logistics are the primary cause for this decline in 25man groups. 10man is thriving. 10man has always thrived. Giving 10man the same rewards as 25man raiding has contributed to the decline of 25man raiding. Offering more loot in 25man raiding did not help 25man raiding. 10man continued to thrive on the deaths of 25man raiding. Wouldn't it be "picking favorites," in favor of 10man, if Blizzard decided to let 25man die out?

Go into LFR. Consider the real mechanics of Heroic/Normal modes. Apply that to Heroic/Normal 25man raiding. Now bring 1-5 idiots to your raid. Three (3) of your better players leave. Add 3 more inexperienced players. Now there are 4-8 idiots/inexperienced players in your raid. Welcome to the death of 25man raiding in a game where you're rewarded for choosing the easier path. Again, logistics are the issue. Reward the players for the logistical challenge.

Just to restate what has already been stated in this thread:
- Better RNG on RNG gear (with RNG stats?) is not a good incentive.
- 25man needs a "Wow!" factor to which 10man simply does not have access. It will be overkill when both 25man and 10man agree that the idea is "too good," but it will be necessary.
Edited by Cyous on 1/24/2013 3:48 AM PST
90 Undead Priest
13590
If you "...like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away...", why did you eliminate the 40-player raids in first place, 6 years ago? That's was the start of the breaking apart of a lot of guilds. And I don't agree about the difficult of 10 and 25 players raids. A lot of pages have been written about this topic, but sometimes, in 10 man, you can't get the best classes for each encounter, despite of the fact that a 10 man raid has less raid cooldowns, less battle resses, less items drops (2 against 6 in 25), and some mechanics are the same for 10 and 25 man, with less people to work them, like the pheromone debuff in Garalon Heroic (4 min), the number of bolts and damage from sha spines in Sha of Fear Heroic, 3 huddle of fear in 10 man (33,3% of the raid) against 5 in 25 (20% of the raid). Also, 10 man allows less posibles strategies, since they are limitated by the numbers of raiders and classes available. You introduced the concept of 10 and 25 man and made them equal, tearing apart guilds with years of raiding, now it's your responsability to deal with this and keep the conditions for 10 and 25 man raiding the same and proportional. That's my humble opinion. Otherwise, eliminate the 10 man raids, and bring all back to 25. And one last thing: until ten days ago, when I get a leg item from lfr, was using a rare trousers, which means that, in almost 4 months raiding heroic instances, doing world bosses, etc, etc, I never get an epic item for my legs. And you still believe gearing is easier for 10 man? Like I said, I'm 16/16 h right now, and my item lvl is 500 only; 4 months of raiding, and still couldn't complete a 4 set bonus of T 14. And I don't want to forget the little mistake with "Feng's drops in 10 man heroic", fixed only 2 weeks ago... Conclusion: get 25 man together could be more difficult, but the gearing, strategy and exigence of 10 man is harder, so you should give 10 man raids more incentive. Thanks for your time and forgive my english.
28 Gnome Mage
200
01/24/2013 03:44 AMPosted by Milín
Conclusion: get 25 man together could be more difficult, but the gearing, strategy and exigence of 10 man is harder, so you should give 10 man raids more incentive. Thanks for your time and forgive my english.

Your opinion that 10 man's are harder doesn't mean much when it's a fact that the number of 25 man guilds are declining. And since blizzard wants there to be a balance of 25's and 10's why in the world would they further incentivize the over popular difficulty?
90 Draenei Mage
16695
Just saying Blizzard really has been having more "misses" than hits as of late. Dailies, VP upgrades where I am forced to cap (To raiders yes these are required because better gear, free gear=high chance of success for the raid) and now this. On top of myself having a terrible time trying to find a 25 man guild that meets what I want for my class (there are only 3 top 100 US that can meet my raid times) and pretty much the death of my server (only 3 -10s left) I personally think its time to remember that every good story has an end and probably go casual then unsubscribe if these changes go through. I can hardly keep up all the dailies, vp capping, farming plus having a 12 hour workday anyways and although my preferred raid style is 25, 10s don't have the same feel as a 25 guild and with this intensive is the best you have on the table then the death of the 25s will continue, or in this case maybe accelerated when maybe a 25 gets the bright idea to use their extra thunderforges and make a small high geared 10 man team to kill off the final boss for server first if the race is close.
Edited by Akrisa on 1/24/2013 4:22 AM PST
90 Human Death Knight
GSO
12240
25man groups are simply harder to setup. They require the same amount of personal responsibly from player to player, regardless of what 10man raids claim. (Trying coordinating 24 other players, making all player work together in sync to achieve progression -- 10man is a joke when it comes to logistics).

What 10 man lacks in overall coordination effort, it makes up for in unforgiveness of mechanics and composition restrictions.

In a standard 25 man you will have approximately 3x as many raid cooldowns. (IE, Spirit link, Devo Aura, smoke bomb, etc) This means you are less likely to find yourself in situations which stress the raid as a whole.

In 25 man you will have 3 battle res's instead of 1. This means, you can !@#$ up 3x as often with recovery, without having 3 times as many people.

In 25 man, you will not find strategies differing based on composition. Try doing Windlord without a priest as a 10 man guild. Obviously, class stacking for certain fights is in both 10 and 25 man, that is of course excluded in this point.

Then of course, there is Loot distribution. Your 10 man raid may have an uneven number of token types or armor types resulting in an even SLOWER gearing progression. The first week we killed heroic Will of the Emporer in my 10 man guild, we disenchanted EVERYTHING that dropped because the bow and agility mail dropped - we had no hunter or enhance shaman.

And if you honestly think that running a 25 man guild is THAT MUCH harder to run than a 10 man guild - I have a bridge to sell you. As leadership of multiple 25 man guilds during Wrath, I can tell you that the micromanging effort that we're extorting here is just simply not ever met. In all cases, the leadership adopts a "core" set of raiders that they attend to and a group of "fringe" cases are set along side. We don't keep up with 30+ people. The only ongoing effort a 25 man has that a 10 man doesn't is recruitment. In a 25 man, it's rare that you have a set roster for more than a few weeks at a time. That's a result of life, not a mechanic or preference.

Bottom line is that 25 mans dont need any more reward than they currently get because I thoroughly believe people aren't "settling" for 10 mans, they are preferring them and for reasons completely unrelated to reward.
100 Draenei Death Knight
19375
This will be detrimental to 10-man raiding groups... but it will do nothing for 25-mans. For starters.

Many may disagree with me here, but players have a tendency to follow the loot. This change will cause many 10 man groups to disband in the hopes of forming new 25man group, but the underlying problem is that server populations are not high enough to support more than 3-4 25man guilds.
The problem with 25man and its decline is primarily due to difficulty in management,recruitment, and generally player emotions, not due to gearing. This method will only serve to bloating the benched roster of 25man guilds, while on the other hand making recruitment and formation of 10man guilds harder. Also, a poster above me stated however detrimental this is to the skill-level of 25mans, to the point where their victories would be due to out-gearing a specific boss fight.

.... thus my initial statement: This will destroy many 10 man groups, and do nothing for 25mans.
Edited by Kassadin on 1/24/2013 4:48 AM PST
90 Human Death Knight
GSO
12240
Ultimately though, I just want to express that the reason my 10 man guild doesn't go to 25 man isn't because there isn't enough reward for the trouble it's because we can't. The transition from 10 to 25 man isn't feasible outside a merger. The gap between having 12 people and 30 people is too wide to bridge by picking up a couple people.

We'd have to more than double our roster. Doing something like that is nigh impossible in a reasonable amount of time. It would take me somewhere close to 2 months to recruit enough raiders to fill a 25 man with my 10 man roster as a start.

We've talked so many times about how we'd like to be 25 man just to get the loot perks. It's not that 25 man doesn't have enough reward for being 25 man, it's that there is no practical way within our current systems of character transfer and raid lockouts that we can make that jump without disbanding our guild and going our own separate ways.
90 Gnome Priest
17125
Ultimately though, I just want to express that the reason my 10 man guild doesn't go to 25 man isn't because there isn't enough reward for the trouble it's because we can't. The transition from 10 to 25 man isn't feasible outside a merger. The gap between having 12 people and 30 people is too wide to bridge by picking up a couple people.

We'd have to more than double our roster. Doing something like that is nigh impossible in a reasonable amount of time. It would take me somewhere close to 2 months to recruit enough raiders to fill a 25 man with my 10 man roster as a start.

We've talked so many times about how we'd like to be 25 man just to get the loot perks. It's not that 25 man doesn't have enough reward for being 25 man, it's that there is no practical way within our current systems of character transfer and raid lockouts that we can make that jump without disbanding our guild and going our own separate ways.


With your progression, if you really wanted to go 25m and your entire guild agreed to it, then you could find the people within a week. Amongst 3-4 people looking through recruitment in my guild just over the last week we recruited 8 new players from other servers. about a month ago we recruited 5 new players. and inbetween we've seen a few here and there and my guild is less progressed than yours is. If you put in the effort to recruit, and are good at talking to people, then you could get the people no problem. I remember back in cata i converted a 10m to a 25m in one weekend

http://www.wowlemmings.com/ is also great for recruitment
Edited by Zolvolt on 1/24/2013 5:13 AM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
8120
I personally liked the Wrath system, It wasn't a slap in the face because 10 and 25 man raid locks weren't shared. you could do a 10 man, and a 25 man of the same raid within the same week.
100 Draenei Death Knight
19375
Ultimately though, I just want to express that the reason my 10 man guild doesn't go to 25 man isn't because there isn't enough reward for the trouble it's because we can't. The transition from 10 to 25 man isn't feasible outside a merger. The gap between having 12 people and 30 people is too wide to bridge by picking up a couple people.

We'd have to more than double our roster. Doing something like that is nigh impossible in a reasonable amount of time. It would take me somewhere close to 2 months to recruit enough raiders to fill a 25 man with my 10 man roster as a start.

We've talked so many times about how we'd like to be 25 man just to get the loot perks. It's not that 25 man doesn't have enough reward for being 25 man, it's that there is no practical way within our current systems of character transfer and raid lockouts that we can make that jump without disbanding our guild and going our own separate ways.


With your progression, if you really wanted to go 25m and your entire guild agreed to it, then you could find the people within a week. Amongst 3-4 people looking through recruitment in my guild just over the last week we recruited 8 new players from other servers. about a month ago we recruited 5 new players. and inbetween we've seen a few here and there and my guild is less progressed than yours is. If you put in the effort to recruit, and are good at talking to people, then you could get the people no problem. I remember back in cata i converted a 10m to a 25m in one weekend

http://www.wowlemmings.com/ is also great for recruitment


Problem is though... as your progression goes up, so must the criteria for your applicants. In other words... you'll have to find like minded and players who are relatively good for your current (if not greater) level of progression.
In the event where they aren't up to your level of progression, you are required to train them as well... hence why I think he meant it not being very...feasible.
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