10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Human Death Knight
GSO
12240
01/24/2013 05:49 AMPosted by Drayjin
Please let me reiterate that this game is not a democracy, and the only voice you have is your money. If you are not happy with the game, rather than coming here and !@#$%ing about raiding, dailies, LFR, valor capping, and every other piece of non-sense you can find, quit. I would personally prefer that, purely for the reason that you won't be able to post here anymore.

First off, Flyboy, this thread specifically says they are looking for feedback in the original post.

Second off, That's an awful thing to say to someone who actually cares about the time they've invested in the game and the people they've met and maintain friendships through within it.

3rd and finally, We've tried giving 25 mans better loot. It was an ultimate failure and this is their attempt a a subtle way of trying to reintroduce it. Both sides of this argument agree that RNG loot is not the answer and this is an awful solution to the problem. It has been stated by 25 man guilds, in this thread, that this would make running a 25 man guild even more difficult.

Maybe you should spare us, instead of us sparing you?
Edited by Novahkane on 1/24/2013 6:06 AM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
I'm a 25-man raider. I feel like this change will undermine 25-man raiding by making it "easier" than 10-man raiding, because gear does matter, and this change will generally give 25-man guilds more iLevel than 10-man guilds. This change will not make 25-man guilds easier to manage than 10-man guilds, but it will make 25-man guilds more likely to overcome iLevel checks (such as Heroic Garalon and Heroic Sha of Fear) than 10-mans. That's unfair from a progression standpoint. I want my 25-man guild to beat that 10-man guild to that boss because we're better than them, not because we were lucky enough to get more gear than them.
........


A race between 10's and 25's is never going to be equitable because it's impossible to balance the two formats so every encounter is the same difficulty. So your concern is unfounded. The whole point of this change is to make 25's more attractive to a certain type of player.
100 Draenei Death Knight
12400
I believe that instead of making "Thunderforged" more likely to drop in 25s you should instead have more bosses with elite mechanics and loot like protectors of the endless.

The fact that 25s are more forgiving in dps requirements and the natural increase in the amount of loot per kill will serve as an apt incentive for progression minded 25 teams to stay 25 instead of breaking down into a smaller, more manageable team.

An elite gear model, such as I have suggested, will be much more fair and effective than one which gives 25s and obvious and clear numerical gear advantage.
Edited by Havïk on 1/24/2013 6:20 AM PST
100 Tauren Druid
21525
People refer to BC as the "glory age" of 25 mans... everyone was in a 25m guild, myself included. You know why?... Because there were only two ten man raids in BC content. 10 mans were around but they were used as tools to catch people up for 25m raiding. Comparing the two sizes at that time is apples and oranges.

All this loot stuff makes me laugh. Current 25m raiders are spoiled rotten and don't even realize it. Forgive me, as I can't recall exact numbers, but off the top of my head around 2-3 epics drop per Vanilla-era 40m boss. Let me emphasize that; 2-3 epics for a 40 man raid. I believe SSC/TK bosses dropped around 3 items for non-tier bosses, or 3 tokens and one extra for tier bosses (I may be off, but not by much). That's for 25m raids. Go run the instances and look for yourself, the numbers have never been nerfed.

Yet here we are in modern day WoW where 25m raiders are swimming in epics from every kill, a myriad of legendaries, and a higher percentage of upcoming Thunderforged loot.

On paper the distribution comes out roughly the same. However, 25's will always have an advantage because it's also more likely main specs can use the drops. My guild is 11/16H and last night (out of 10 kills, IE 20 epics) we saw...

-- 5 upgrades
-- 6 DE's
-- 9 offspecced to many people who despise their offspecs but didn't want to waste the loot

We DE'd every item off heroic Spiritbinder tonight, while 4 bosses were 50/50 DE-offspec fodder. How often does a 25 man completely DE or offspec what a single boss drops when they haven't yet completed the tier? This will obviously happen more as people gear up, but I don't recall DEing whole bosses very often back in 25m WotLK.

And tier tokens are a nightmare for 10's. One token. Lei Shi loves Vanquishers so much that I have shoulders for all four specs and our mage has two sets as well. 4 weeks of not seeing a single shoulder upgrade for other people in my raid. Not to mention that whenever I armory a 25m raider with an equal or lesser amount of total boss kills to me, their ilevel is on average 5+ higher than mine.

The decline of 25's boils down to one simple thing, and it isn't the current loot model; 25's are not the only option anymore.

When Cataclysm introduced shared lockouts and equal gear, many people, like myself, took the opportunity to play with a smaller elite group that they enjoy playing with, without the annoyance and hassle of dealing with the 3-6+ cliques, drama and personality clashes you come across in 25's. Not to say that every 25 is garbage and every 10 is perfect, there are bad apples in every bunch. But, generally speaking, unless you are in an elite, highly progressed, long established 25 man guild... then you will certainly deal with petty cliques/drama/clashes.

Atmosphere cannot be fixed by adding more of the same loot 10's get.

The only way Blizzard can possibly drive players to build and maintain 25m guilds again is to give them an obvious advantage over 10's, similar to the WotLK dynamic. The moment you outright make 25's BETTER than 10's will be the moment you see them rebuild.

The crappy thing is that 10's will again be shafted and kicked to the curb. I downsized from 25 to 10 in early ICC and my guild at the time was often looked down upon by progression raiders because of our gear disparity. Recruiting was a royal pain because 10's were considered a lesser creature, people didn't like the idea of purposefully gimping themselves when elite gear was only a lockout away. I do not want to see the "10-strict" era in WoW again, or even then "10's = level ilevel" era.

Until Blizzard decides to put a large gap between 10/25 again, the only other fix is forced raid sizes for all, as seen in BC. Offer one raid size and that's it. I personally hate the idea, but offering higher quality carrots or no options at all are really the only solutions.

As said above, me and many other 10m raiders are already at a disadvantage when it comes to the opportunity to see specific items off bosses, due to the incredibly tiny amount of drops. Adding the same Thunderforged items into 25's at a higher rate will not be near enough to make people consider going 25 again. So long as the same exact gear is offered in both raid sizes then people will continue to prefer 10's due to personal taste.
Edited by Tree on 1/24/2013 8:00 AM PST
92 Human Warrior
14825
AT what point and time do you just scrap the raid model and tell everyone: "15-man" deal with it.

Why make all this extra work? What happens when you do all this and it still doesn't produce the desired results? With LFR, Normal and Heroic there are raiding options for everyon. Lets get rid of this 10/25 and just go to a single format "15" and then you can focus on a better raid design knowing you don't have to appease varied raid sizes.
MVP - World of Warcraft
95 Night Elf Druid
13210
01/24/2013 06:04 AMPosted by Novahkane
3rd and finally, We've tried giving 25 mans better loot. It was an ultimate failure and this is their attempt a a subtle way of trying to reintroduce it. Both sides of this argument agree that RNG loot is not the answer and this is an awful solution to the problem. It has been stated by 25 man guilds, in this thread, that this would make running a 25 man guild even more difficult.


Actually, the version of "different loot" was a much more extreme version and NOT just a percent chance difference. Right now, in the game, 25-mans average more loot per player than 10s. However, the 25s have still withered to the point of near-extinction and thus the majority of people who may enjoy 25s no longer have the option to run them because not enough people are taking up the mantle of leadership and becoming an officer in a newly formed 25-man guild. It's a problem of leadership, not a problem of people wanting to run 25's.

The old WOTLK raid tiers had a package of: significantly different gaps between what loot tables they had, including not being able to make legendaries in 10-mans. Having achievements that were split up between the two sizes, with the 25-man achievements holding all the prestige. They were on different lockouts (so, all 25's could get two full raid clears on the same characters).

With just slightly increasing the drop rate of loot (which 25-mans already have right now in some form or another), it has a total of zero impact on the vast majority of people who prefer 10-man raiding. In a 10-man, you will still receive those same exact items, and with fewer people competing for each item, the drop rate difference at this point could still come out to favor 10s. My 25-man has FIVE hunters in it. So, one of our hunters still doesn't have a weapon because we haven't been able to get enough of them out of the MV bosses we've been farming for months. Unless they make the drop rate difference of 10% for 10-mans and 90% for 25-mans, we won't actually SEE the difference in drop rates. If the 25-mans don't get at minimum 2.5 items for every 1 item 10-mans get, then 10-mans gear up faster because they have fewer people to gear up. Thus, a drop rate difference is essentially a meaningless thing in a lot of ways.

That said, my guild's 25-man uses the EPGP addon for managing our loot system. We're just going to modify the addon for it so that we can make the point cost of the loot consistent with the different ilevel values and such. Once the addon is set up to handle the changes, our officers won't really have a whole lot to stress about or worry over. At this point, we actually have the problem of our point system not being super meaningful because most people are gearing up from things that they get from using their tokens that don't cost points in our system.

I would personally prefer splitting achievements (and locking you to one or the other so that you can't earn both - EVEN if that's done mostly in flavor text on the achievement), badges on the Armory that say what your preferred raid size is, bringing back cauldrons and max-level food feasts (because the consumable burden on 25-mans right now is totally out of hand), and other quality of life improvements that allow 25-mans to have an easier time with forming new guilds and feeling rewarded. The change to 25s has to not be about loot, but about removing the administrative nightmare barriers to creating a new 25-man raid/guild.
Edited by Lissanna on 1/24/2013 6:34 AM PST
90 Orc Hunter
14985
I think there is a larger lesson to be learned here by Blizzard.

The company has a tendency to make frequent broad sweeping changes to the game, then after these big changes result in big unintended consequences, they apply gentle nudges to try to repair the damage.

To me this is like trying to drive down the road while wildly swinging the wheel from left to right, then, when you are about to crash, reacting with a gentle turn.

Its too late for my old guild, which broke down from a 40 to a 25, then from a 25 to a 10 and finally to a casual and nothing at all. Those players, my friends, have scattered and can never be brought together again. But its not too late for others. Please change things more slowly and carefully.

Here are some quotes to print out and display on the Developers walls:

Without reflection, we go blindly on our way, creating more unintended consequences, and failing to achieve anything useful. -- Margaret J. Wheatley

All change is not growth, as all movement is not forward. -- Ellen Glasgow
90 Draenei Shaman
12105
I just wanted to add my two cents (not sure if this will even be read):

I agree with giving 25 man a better incentive to stick around but I do not think this is the correct way to do it.

Introducing two more tiers of gear (Normal, Normal Thunderforged, Heroic, Heroic Thunderforged) that is based on RNG is going to cause more problems than it solves and does not really work well for rewarding raiders for their efforts.

I personally really enjoy the current item upgrade system. It allows for players to upgrade on any path they choose (given the first wall of RNG-loot drop-is being kind).

My Idea:
Keep the current Item Upgrade system but make a few modifications.
  • Introduce a new "currency" that only drops from raids (LFR, Normal, Heroic).
  • Change item upgrades so that they use this currency instead of VP.
  • The currency would be looted (earned) from each boss kill.
  • The raid difficulty level determines the amount of currency you earn.


This will allow players to have the flexibility to upgrade in a custom, non-RNG, path.
It will alleviate the extra RNG that a 10 man raid would have to deal with having a smaller loot table.
It will allow Blizzard to reward (albeit slightly) 25 man raids and even difficulty levels in a consistent and fair way.
90 Undead Warlock
8170
My 10m guild merged with another 10m guild in anticipation of the changes and honestly this is a let down. I'm sorry blizzard, but RNG is RNG and it's a stupid solution which will not halt the decline of 25s. As you guys have stated in the past, the players will always take the easier route given the same reward which is why 25s are dieing. So much for the "Controversial" change, this is a joke. Maybe if they only dropped in 25s, but it is still not enough because again RNG is a terrible mechanic when you are trying to promote something as big as 25 man raids.

I raided in 25s from BC through the first teir of cata and I told my guild I was reluctant to go back to 25s. It seems stupid that a full set of thunderforged is going to be better than Tier gear since you aren't letting teir gear be thunderforged. I really don't feel like changing guilds again so I'll probably just quit instead of dealing with all the BS involved with a 25 person raid.

Edit: To be a little more constructive. The only time 25s were booming is when the only end-game raid content was in 25 man format. People put up with all of the drama and logistical garbage because that was the only end-game. To effectively stop the decline of 25s you will have to go back to that paradigm. Players don't want to put up with the revolving door of applicants that you have to gear only to have someone else leave and have to gear someone new again over and over and over. That is why 10s have become so popular, there is a smaller chance that someone has to be gone for work, deal with kids/RL issues, etc. You can run a 10 man very easily with 11-12 players. For 25s you need at least 30 which is why the revolving door happens because 5 people sitting every night is not fun nor exciting. You could try and have bosses drop flask couldrons/feasts, but honestly that isn't that big of an issue. The hardest part is finding solid people to fill vacancys or weed out bad players and gear new people/teach them the fights.

In ending, the only way to make 25s last is to make them the only end game otherwise 25s will be dead by the end of this expansion. To do what needs to be done to fix 25s will probably crush a lot of 10 mans so blizzard is in a catch 22 as long as they want to hold the 10/25 paradigm.
Edited by Booticalls on 1/24/2013 8:11 AM PST
90 Troll Shaman
12525
Just make it not apply to weapons and it should be okay.
100 Human Paladin
13290
01/24/2013 06:29 AMPosted by Lissanna
I would personally prefer splitting achievements (and locking you to one or the other so that you can't earn both - EVEN if that's done mostly in flavor text on the achievement), badges on the Armory that say what your preferred raid size is, bringing back cauldrons and max-level food feasts (because the consumable burden on 25-mans right now is totally out of hand), and other quality of life improvements that allow 25-mans to have an easier time with forming new guilds and feeling rewarded. The change to 25s has to not be about loot, but about removing the administrative nightmare barriers to creating a new 25-man raid/guild.


Really great post, and I totally agree.
90 Gnome Priest
10200
There are two main points we're trying to address with this change:
Raiding in 10- and 25-player dungeons already provides the same item level rewards for everyone. Engaging in the logistics of the larger raid format, however, we feel should be rewarded and the slight increase in chances to receive a Thunderforged item in 25-player is our effort to strike a better balance between both raid sizes.


The biggest complaint I have always had when it came to the debate of 10's vs 25's, is that prior to the end of WotLK we were able to run both on the same character. My guild had a progression group that we would run through heroic modes in 10-man, carrying some people to jettison their gear up, and then turn right around later that raid week and run our 25-man as a guild for the less committed. This gave the chance for everyone to be included on it, and actually allowed us to promote 25-man raids.

When the merge happened making all loot from the 2 the same, you also combined their lockouts preventing us from being able to choose to do both. You forced us into making the decision as players to be a 10's raider, or a 25's raider with no compromise there at all. Sure you can raid in both right now provided that your boss kills don't conflict with the raid progression that night, but it's not the same. In my opinion, if you removed the synced/combined lockouts you will see a large increase in the amount of people willing to run a 25 man raid. You don't have to increase the item levels for the raids, though the system you are talking about for increasing the drop chance of "Thunderforged" items sounds like a good idea.

With the lockout sync removed, and the increased Thunderforged drops, you will have a very good incentive to players to raid in 25-man content again.... I know I'll be one of those players since it will be worth the hassle of getting 24 friends together and not hurt our normal progression any.
Edited by Gullefjun on 1/24/2013 7:47 AM PST
90 Human Warrior
11790
01/23/2013 09:07 AMPosted by Daerioz
This will not help bring back 25s.


Yes, it will. I am thinking you don't raid 25m and therefore don't like this. The problem I have is, what is the % difference; what is the overall % in the thunderforged weapons drop for both?

This isn't the only means to bring back 25m, but it will help to a degree. It's not a negative step for them, and not a neutral one, either, therefore it is positive, however small the step.

Also, why not have a LFR version? Some of us can't raid due to real life obligations, so give us a chance too, maybe more rare than 10m, with a lower ilvl but still an improvement over what we would get; say 508 ilvl. That's not much to ask, as the difference in ilvl from lfr and normal is already 20 ilvls, and the difference between normal and heroic is only 13 ilvls; even the difference between a LFR thunderforged weapon and normal would STILL BE 14 ilvls.

LFR is faceroll? ok then, give it 1 or 2 more mechanics that need to be followed, and if that brings disperity, give us a 10% buff 3 or 4 weeks aftere trying it out. I don't see why that's unreasonable.

Arës
88 Goblin Hunter
9035
Was it not a slap in the face to 25man raid guilds when you orginaly changed it you had no problem then why would ther be a problem now?
97 Undead Priest
15960
01/24/2013 08:03 AMPosted by Arës
This will not help bring back 25s.


Yes, it will. I am thinking you don't raid 25m and therefore don't like this. The problem I have is, what is the % difference; what is the overall % in the thunderforged weapons drop for both?

This isn't the only means to bring back 25m, but it will help to a degree. It's not a negative step for them, and not a neutral one, either, therefore it is positive, however small the step.


I have been running a 25man raid guild for 5 years. The last Horde 25man on my server.
I agree that this will not help bring back 25s and will in fact cause more headaches for the leadership by making overflow even more difficult to manage (because with thunderforged, few will want to step out, because few will ever get everything they need).
Edited by Poena on 1/24/2013 8:24 AM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
12185
The difference in drop rate between 10 and 25 is terrible. 10 man already has a much higher chance to need to de something due to no one being able to use it, they already have a lower drop per person, and now you want to lower their overall ilvl. I don't want to be forced into 25, some people like 10 man raiding not for the simplicity for the officers but because they enjoy a closer group of friends to raid with. Your trying to hard to force people into 25 when you should be focusing on allowing raiders to just get in there and kill some epic bosses. Everytime you do this your putting even more pressure on 10 man guilds going into the following tier.

25 already has benefits for them going forward in progression, (loot per person, brez (3 and someone casting is 1/10 of their raid), less de, etc.). Some fights are easier on 10, some 25, these people just need to quit !@#$%ing and blizz giving them more ^-*!. Its fine now and this change will be complete bull@#$% if 25 gets more.
90 Gnome Warlock
17850
Wow no gear in LFR? What about the minority of us that dont raid in guilds. I like the idea that I can just join LFR, play the game as an individual and get some gear once in a while. I dont understand your comment that LFR should be only to see content.
98 Gnome Priest
19205
Something needs to be done for 25 mans as they are a dieing breed. Lets face it.. it is easier to start a new guild of 10 people than 25.

However, I think this thunderforge idea is a bad one. We run a 35 man raid roster because with 25 mans, you almost have to. It is already hard enough to get people to sit for others and share the kills. Especially with coins as you don't even have to be top dkp to get loot now. Now you will have them bickering over thunderforge drops creating more drama within 25 man raiding.

Please get it together blizzard. Your knee-jerk reactions are hurting this game.

I would rather see you make 15 mans and scrap 25/10 than do things like this. At least we would all be on the same playing field and have less balance issues.

Also, not sure why 10/25 still share achievements when it has been clear for a long time they do not share the same balancing.
Edited by Lyconis on 1/24/2013 8:51 AM PST
90 Worgen Druid
17805
Posting here since the thread I'm quoting from is capped:

01/23/2013 05:37 PMPosted by Bashiok
I think the types of conversations taking place, if nothing else, show that it's at least an engaging change that could mean... something. We'll have to see how it works out, and maybe some day we look back and all laugh at that stupid Thunderforged idea, or maybe we all forget about the forums posts we're making right now because it becomes a solid and accepted part of the game's itemization. In the meantime, your feedback, and back-and-forths, and thoughts, are helpful.

So in other words you don't care most of us think it's a terrible idea, it won't help 25 man raids, and it annoys raids because there are less mains willing to switch for farm content because they need those 6 ilevels? Gotcha.
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