10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Human Priest
13300
There are two main points we're trying to address with this change:
Raiding in 10- and 25-player dungeons already provides the same item level rewards for everyone. Engaging in the logistics of the larger raid format, however, we feel should be rewarded and the slight increase in chances to receive a Thunderforged item in 25-player is our effort to strike a better balance between both raid sizes.
The addition of Thunderforged items also have benefits for both 10- and 25-player raids. For instance, if a raid group is stuck on boss #5 and their members have all the viable upgrades from previous bosses, going through those bosses again to work on #5 can now bring added bonuses. We think this makes these efforts much more fun and rewarding.


Unless slight increased drop is 50% more, it isn't going to remotely come close to fixing the 25man problem. Slight in blizzard terms reads as 10%. That isn't enough incentive. At best that is an average ilvl upgrade of .5-1ilvl over the tier versus 10man. Not good enough.

And please let us not forget the issue in the first place, that thunderforged is an idiotic structure. Make the 6 ilvl increase be via a upgrade token like firelands, otherwise the system will be broken, and it will hinder a lot more than it helps.
90 Worgen Druid
17805
01/24/2013 05:49 AMPosted by Drayjin
ITT: Everyone things that they are the most important person in the world, and that 10 man raiding is going to die because items with a higher ilvl will be dropping in ALL raids, and 25 mans will be getting just a bit more of them.

I'm not sure you're reading most posts. No one is saying 10 man raiding is going to die; in fact, most people with a brain will realize this will continue the status quo. How many people that run in 10s right now will say, "oh, there is a slightly better chance to get the same loot? SIGN ME UP!"

Very few. And even those that do are playing the game for the wrong reason: Shiny lootz.
90 Orc Death Knight
15015
I understand that you want to incentivize 25 man raiding. I have no problem with that.

My concern is the mechanics of this may actually harm heroic 10 man guild progression.

It seems somewhat counter-intuitive but it boils down to off-spec gearing. For 10-man guilds that are pushing full heroic clears they often are forced to rely on some of their raiders being fully geared in at least two specs. (Some encounters require 2 healers instead of 3 or 1 tank instead of 2, for example).

If suddenly those early drops are taken multiple times for main-spec gear it makes it even more difficult to gear up off-specs.

You can say that off-spec gear is less important than main-spec gear; and that's true. But if a given fight calls for only one tank because of strict enrage timers we NEED our second tank to be putting out near main-spec DPS numbers in their off-spec. It's going to be hard for us to ask them to do that with diminished access to the appropriate gear.

If Thunderforged gear is already going to be a small chance to drop anyway, would it be too much to ask that when it does drop it doesn't replace an existing item but is in addition to? My concern is that we won't be able to keep our dual-specced raiders viably geared for heroic content if the same items are taken multiple times for main-spec purposes.
Edited by Goya on 1/24/2013 9:05 AM PST
90 Gnome Mage
11465
You're not going to make a lot of folks happy if 10 man guilds feel like second class citizens. Since a majority of your raider player base is in 10 man guilds, that means a majority of your raider player base is potentially unhappy with what you are doing. Any boon to 25 mans would not be in the interests of the majority of the people that choose to raid and would benefit only (1) the minority of folks in 25s, and (2) your own belief that 25 is somehow better. Please don't do it.

I would hate to have to try to recruit 15 more people only because I felt it is what I have to do to maintain reasonable access to elite gear.

If your design philosophy really has to steer toward larger raids, please consider splitting the baby. Move to a 15 man format, no 10s, no 25s, same loot for all.
100 Orc Warlock
Oz
10375
I just wanted to add my two cents (not sure if this will even be read):

I agree with giving 25 man a better incentive to stick around but I do not think this is the correct way to do it.

Introducing two more tiers of gear (Normal, Normal Thunderforged, Heroic, Heroic Thunderforged) that is based on RNG is going to cause more problems than it solves and does not really work well for rewarding raiders for their efforts.

I personally really enjoy the current item upgrade system. It allows for players to upgrade on any path they choose (given the first wall of RNG-loot drop-is being kind).

My Idea:
Keep the current Item Upgrade system but make a few modifications.
  • Introduce a new "currency" that only drops from raids (LFR, Normal, Heroic).
  • Change item upgrades so that they use this currency instead of VP.
  • The currency would be looted (earned) from each boss kill.
  • The raid difficulty level determines the amount of currency you earn.


This will allow players to have the flexibility to upgrade in a custom, non-RNG, path.
It will alleviate the extra RNG that a 10 man raid would have to deal with having a smaller loot table.
It will allow Blizzard to reward (albeit slightly) 25 man raids and even difficulty levels in a consistent and fair way.


Off topic, but I agree that the upgrade system is cool. I would change it that instead of extra drops from each kill, you would have the option to turn in a drop for the currency instead of DE'ing it. We DE'd a bunch of stuff last night, it would be much better if people were getting upgrades.
90 Blood Elf Priest
16560
As a 25-man raider, I'm thankful that Blizzard is thinking of us, and I wouldn't feel gracious complaining about a kind gesture. But as kind as it is, I just don't think it's going to be an incentive for most players. An abundance of gear is the one clear advantage that 25-mans already have, so it seems to me that 10-mans need the loot far more than we do. One of several reasons my guild moved away from 10s during Cataclysm was because loot was so slow and frustrating to earn. Item inflation and distribution issues aside (because they have already been illustrated so well by others in this thread), I see only more frustration ahead with this system.

I realise that it's a very delicate balance to give us something meaningful while still being fair to 10-mans, but there are ways to reward 25-mans without upsetting game balance:

    * Helpful rewards: The return of perks like Have Group, Will Travel to reduce downtime, longevity buffs to consumables, feasts, and repairs, and so on.
    * Vanity rewards: Special titles, mounts, pets, or transmog gear that can only be earned in a 25-man raid.
    * Separating 10/25 raid achievements so that fans of each size can have a badge of honour to display is a great way to appeal to many players.

Keep it simple, keep it fair, keep people happy. :)
Edited by Evangelina on 1/24/2013 10:26 AM PST
100 Draenei Shaman
20035

I would hate to have to try to recruit 15 more people only because I felt it is what I have to do to maintain reasonable access to elite gear.


OMG NO!! Are you saying you might actually have to WORK for better gear??!?!? Heaven forbid such a thing happen, personally I think every 10man guild should just be given gear at the end of thier raid cause you know, they showed up and tried, doesn't matter if they actually suck or not. Those stupid 25mans getting everything easier with having more people and actually getting more loot to drop plus they can just carry like 10 people and it won't matter cause lol theres 15 more there. Oh wait, that's only an argument for guilds not pushing any type of real progression? But they can die and brez and still kill a fight! What do you mean that's complete bs and if people die in almost every boss that you had to work for this tier in progression you most likely would still end up wiping to enrage...get out of here with your logic and experience of high end progression! We should just make everything as easy as possible and still lable it 'Heroic' just so I can feel good and get everything handed to me! Yeah! Lets do that 25s are too much work and too hard.
90 Undead Mage
11745
You're not going to make a lot of folks happy if 10 man guilds feel like second class citizens. Since a majority of your raider player base is in 10 man guilds, that means a majority of your raider player base is potentially unhappy with what you are doing. Any boon to 25 mans would not be in the interests of the majority of the people that choose to raid and would benefit only (1) the minority of folks in 25s, and (2) your own belief that 25 is somehow better. Please don't do it.

I would hate to have to try to recruit 15 more people only because I felt it is what I have to do to maintain reasonable access to elite gear.

If your design philosophy really has to steer toward larger raids, please consider splitting the baby. Move to a 15 man format, no 10s, no 25s, same loot for all.


Blizzard needs to do more of not listening people like this guy. By that token, the large PvP playerbase won't be happy and you should combine PvP and PvE. 15-man raid on Alterac Valley? Make it happen.

25 mans are harder. They deserve a real incentive. If 10 mans are upset, they can go find a game that is totally even and fair to every type of player (Hello Kitty Island Adventure)
90 Gnome Warrior
13195
I would've preferred Lesser Charms dropping from bosses. A lot of people hate doing dailies for charms, and if lesser charms dropped inside 25m raids and not 10, that'd really make for a substantial decision when you pick which size raid you choose to apply to: Do you not want to go through the trouble to organize 25 people? Ok, then you're doing the dailies.

25m Cauldrons, 300+ 25man feasts, all would be better options.

I just don't get this approach. The whole 10/25 shared lockout is predicated on the notion that the fights in either size are close to equally hard. A lot of times it's noticably harder on 25, but other times it is on 10. But at least it's supposed to be equally challenging (even though that didn't happen in FL/DS at all).

The whole 25-m challenge is an administrative/logistic one. This change should've been about making people's lives easier who still work to preserve this format, not about gear.
90 Human Warlock
13720
You're not going to make a lot of folks happy if 10 man guilds feel like second class citizens. Since a majority of your raider player base is in 10 man guilds, that means a majority of your raider player base is potentially unhappy with what you are doing. Any boon to 25 mans would not be in the interests of the majority of the people that choose to raid and would benefit only (1) the minority of folks in 25s, and (2) your own belief that 25 is somehow better. Please don't do it.


Thunderforged will be available to both raid setups. RNG will still be applicable (meaning that just because Thunderforged gear drops doesn't mean it'll always be in the best way possible to gear up a group).

I like this change. I started raiding in 25man format this tier and although it's put me behind where I would be right now in 10man (not saying that my group is terrible, it's simply a lot more challenging and a higher skill curve than 10man for the most part) I would like to stay in this form. It's not going to completely bring back 25man raiding but it's a step in the right direction.
90 Undead Mage
11745
01/23/2013 07:23 PMPosted by Bomdanil
So why is the following a slap in the face to 10 man raiders?


There is no difference in challenge between 10 and 25m as far as the actual fights themselves go (speaking on average here), so you being given better rewards than people doing the same difficulty of fight because 1-3 of the group put in a little extra time outside of the raid is completely uncalled for. There's also the point that your example speaks as if 25m is superior content to what is done by 10's, and that's completely opinion driven rather than fact driven.


25 mans inherently are more difficult because recruiting people and organizing and finding a doable raid comp is a challenge in and of itself. There are a couple fights that are technically harder on 10 man -- none of them are end bosses. On the whole, enrages and some of the more technical mechanics are tighter and harder on 25 man because everyone has a larger mutual responsibility.

25 mans raiders getting slightly better raid gear has zero affect on 10 man raiders. This isn't a civil rights movement. This isn't about player equality. 25s are harder. There needs to be an incentive.
90 Gnome Mage
11465

I would hate to have to try to recruit 15 more people only because I felt it is what I have to do to maintain reasonable access to elite gear.


OMG NO!! Are you saying you might actually have to WORK for better gear??!?!? Heaven forbid such a thing happen, personally I think every 10man guild should just be given gear at the end of thier raid cause you know, they showed up and tried, doesn't matter if they actually suck or not. Those stupid 25mans getting everything easier with having more people and actually getting more loot to drop plus they can just carry like 10 people and it won't matter cause lol theres 15 more there. Oh wait, that's only an argument for guilds not pushing any type of real progression? But they can die and brez and still kill a fight! What do you mean that's complete bs and if people die in almost every boss that you had to work for this tier in progression you most likely would still end up wiping to enrage...get out of here with your logic and experience of high end progression! We should just make everything as easy as possible and still lable it 'Heroic' just so I can feel good and get everything handed to me! Yeah! Lets do that 25s are too much work and too hard.


You're clearly a dlck and are putting a ton of words in my mouth. I may only be 4/6H MV, but that doesn't mean I don't work hard. More to the point, recruiting extra folks (the only point I tried to make) is work for officers, not individual raiders. Individual raiders in a 10 work just as hard as an individual raider in a 25. They deserve the same rewards. If blizz wants to do something to reward the people who actually have to work harder to put together a 25, they can figure out a way to do that.
Edited by Kellyann on 1/24/2013 9:41 AM PST
90 Human Warlock
13720
The people advocating the 10man playerbase make it seem like Thunderforged gear will be exclusively 25man.....it's not.
90 Gnome Mage
11465
01/24/2013 09:34 AMPosted by Ollix
25 mans are harder. They deserve a real incentive.


No they're not.

25 mans inherently are more difficult because recruiting people and organizing and finding a doable raid comp is a challenge in and of itself. There are a couple fights that are technically harder on 10 man -- none of them are end bosses. On the whole, enrages and some of the more technical mechanics are tighter and harder on 25 man because everyone has a larger mutual responsibility.


That's not a raid mechanic, that's a problem of finding 25 good people and its not work that individual raiders do. That's work an officer does. The individual raider works just as hard in a 10 as a 25 and they deserve the same reward. If you want to reward officers for finding 25 good people, fine do that. But don't pretend that 25 man raiders are better simply because they managed to find officers willing to put in the time to find 24 other good people.

Moreover, by your logic, because of this:

There are a couple fights that are technically harder on 10 man.


10 mans should get more loot in those fights.
Edited by Kellyann on 1/24/2013 9:53 AM PST
1 Undead Rogue
0
http://manaflask.com/en/article/2210/

vodka and Exodus merge.

The time to act is now Blizzard.
Edited by Gutracodel on 1/24/2013 9:49 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
I don't like it, as it'll make winning an item bittersweet if it's not thunderforged, and will be double the misery when something drops that no one can use if it's also TF'd. Not to mention the addition of significantly more pressure on loot council/raid leaders, deciding who gets what pieces much more frequently.

I would have preferred to see separate lockouts, as I'd like to see some 25 man non-lfr raids, but I can't due to regular 10 man raiding. If they were separate lockouts, you'd probably see a huge increase in the amount of pick-up raids happening.
90 Worgen Druid
17805
01/24/2013 09:33 AMPosted by Primalshock
OMG NO!! Are you saying you might actually have to WORK for better gear??!?!?

01/24/2013 09:33 AMPosted by Primalshock
WORK

Okay. Sounds like fun, when do I get my paycheck?
100 Draenei Shaman
20035

Individual raiders in a 10 work just as hard as an individual raider in a 25. They deserve the same rewards.
Really, you have to dance around, coordinate, maintain strict cd rotations, hope others don't kill the raid cause theres so many more of you and maintain a high dps with 24 other people in a small room too? You're right, clearly it isn't harder. Your vast experience with any type of progression shows this.
90 Gnome Mage
11465
I realise that it's a very delicate balance to give us something meaningful while still being fair to 10-mans, but there are ways to reward 25-mans without upsetting game balance:

* Helpful rewards: The return of perks like Have Group, Will Travel to reduce downtime, longevity buffs to consumables, feasts, and repairs, and so on.
* Vanity rewards: Special titles, mounts, pets, or transmog gear that can only be earned in a 25-man raid.
* Separating 10/25 raid achievements so that fans of each size can have a badge of honour to display is a great way to appeal to many players.

Keep it simple, keep it fair, keep people happy. :)


This.
90 Orc Hunter
12500
just make an item that will drop as extra loot that will change your current item into "thunderforged"... it's going to be retarded to get nothing but OS thunderforged items for the whole tier.
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