10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Human Death Knight
11565
As someone whos computer cant handle 25 mans very well,

I actually think this is a fair change regardless, the 25 man raiders kind of got the short end of the stick for a while, but the higher chance of the thunderforged items will at least start to make up for it
90 Gnome Mage
11465

Individual raiders in a 10 work just as hard as an individual raider in a 25. They deserve the same rewards.


Really, you have to dance around, coordinate, maintain strict cd rotations, hope others don't kill the raid cause theres so many more of you and maintain a high dps with 24 other people in a small room too? You're right, clearly it isn't harder.


I want you to try something:
Read. Think. Then speak.

1. "Danc[ing] around", coordinating and CD rotations aren't exclusive to 25s. Example, suppose a raider has to pop a CD 2nd in line of 3 CDs in a 10 man, or 4th in line of 5 in a 25. Either way, all the individual raider has to remember "I pop mine after [name]"...yeah that's so different and much harder...The need for high dps is universal too and whether or not the size of the room and size of the raid are an advantage or disadvantage for 10/25 depends entirely on the individual fight mechanics.

2. "hoping others don't kill the raid" isn't any work an individual raider does and is instead based entirely on finding 24 other good people to raid with--work you don't do unless you're an officer.

Bottom line:
The individual raider works just as hard in a 10 as a 25 and they deserve the same reward. If you want to reward officers for finding 25 good people, fine do that. But don't pretend that 25 man raiders are better simply because they managed to find officers willing to put in the time to find 24 other good people.
Edited by Kellyann on 1/24/2013 10:10 AM PST
90 Human Warrior
11790
The difference in drop rate between 10 and 25 is terrible. 10 man already has a much higher chance to need to de something due to no one being able to use it, they already have a lower drop per person, and now you want to lower their overall ilvl. I don't want to be forced into 25, some people like 10 man raiding not for the simplicity for the officers but because they enjoy a closer group of friends to raid with. Your trying to hard to force people into 25 when you should be focusing on allowing raiders to just get in there and kill some epic bosses. Everytime you do this your putting even more pressure on 10 man guilds going into the following tier.

25 already has benefits for them going forward in progression, (loot per person, brez (3 and someone casting is 1/10 of their raid), less de, etc.). Some fights are easier on 10, some 25, these people just need to quit !@#$%ing and blizz giving them more ^-*!. Its fine now and this change will be complete bull@#$% if 25 gets more.


How do they have a lower drop rate and it not be fair? You have more people in a 25 man, therefore more loot. Easy. How is Blizzard wanting to "lower their overall ilvl"? By implementing these changes? You act like everyone in 25m will get these and no one in 10m will.

Honestly they are re-iterating what was already in place. You even said it yourself; 25m now already have more gear dropping at a higher % rate currently and if they didn't tell you all this, these items would have followed the same path, normally having a slightly increased chance to drop as it IS 25m. You say at the end of your rant that how it is is currently fine, and yet it's not really much of a change at all, as I have just proven, so what is your gripe, really?

@Poena: Does anyone ever really get everything they want/need? If a 25m raiding group has set practices of who rotates, then this should already be implemented and therefore not change. If the person qq's because they are wanting more gear and why is person b getting to raid instead of them this week, well, that isn't teamwork now is it? If you have someone that leaves your 25m due to this, which I highly doubt, and they were rotated anyway, what will happen they go to another group? You as a leader (or whomever is) has the responsability to oversee these things. You should have set rules in place. You should enforce them. No one ever said being an officer or even raid leader was all butterflies and rainbow farts.

I understand what you're saying, I want you to know this. I've lead 10 and 25m's before. Multiple times. However I also know what it takes to lead,and how thankless a job it is. Such is the role and mantle we take as leaders. If you don't like it, it may be time to step down. No offense bud, you seem very logical and you didn't attack me at all so I want to return the thought in kind so please read this as such.

My whole point is that 10m's can't expect everything to be exactly the same as a 25m; # of items dropped, # of rezzes given, etc; because if that were the case the boss hp's etc would have to be normalized. Then no one would want to do a 10-man because it would be like facerolling in a 25m, ya dig?

Also, this is beta, this is where they will have the chance to change things up, which also means this may change; let's give them a chance.

Arës
90 Human Warrior
11790


Really, you have to dance around, coordinate, maintain strict cd rotations, hope others don't kill the raid cause theres so many more of you and maintain a high dps with 24 other people in a small room too? You're right, clearly it isn't harder.


I want you to try something:
Read. Think. Then speak.

1. "Danc[ing] around", coordinating and CD rotations aren't exclusive to 25s. Example, suppose a raider has to pop a CD 2nd in line of 3 CDs in a 10 man, or 4th in line of 5 in a 25. Either way, all the individual raider has to remember "I pop mine after [name]"...yeah that's so different and much harder...The need for high dps is universal too and whether or not the size of the room and size of the raid are an advantage or disadvantage for 10/25 depends entirely on the individual fight mechanics.

2. "hoping others don't kill the raid" isn't any work an individual raider does and is instead based entirely on finding 24 other good people to raid with--work you don't do unless you're an officer.

Bottom line:
The individual raider works just as hard in a 10 as a 25 and they deserve the same reward. If you want to reward officers for finding 25 good people, fine do that. But don't pretend that 25 man raiders are better simply because they managed to find officers willing to put in the time to find 24 other good people.


This is not the point. The simple fact is that there are more in a 25m than a 10m. Period. More coordination, not just of officers, but of everyone doing what needs to be done; higher hp's, bosses' spells act differently (don't believe me? 10m sha of fear Ominous Cackle is cast every 90-sec, like LFR; 25m it is cast every 45s), etc causing different necessities.

If the item levels were different for 10/25m then I would agree. The slight increase in drop rate and more of ANY item dropping in 25m as opposed to 10m is completely validated. Not a hard concept.

Arës
90 Undead Mage
11745
01/24/2013 09:48 AMPosted by Kellyann
25 mans are harder. They deserve a real incentive.


No they're not.

25 mans inherently are more difficult because recruiting people and organizing and finding a doable raid comp is a challenge in and of itself. There are a couple fights that are technically harder on 10 man -- none of them are end bosses. On the whole, enrages and some of the more technical mechanics are tighter and harder on 25 man because everyone has a larger mutual responsibility.


That's not a raid mechanic, that's a problem of finding 25 good people and its not work that individual raiders do. That's work an officer does. The individual raider works just as hard in a 10 as a 25 and they deserve the same reward. If you want to reward officers for finding 25 good people, fine do that. But don't pretend that 25 man raiders are better simply because they managed to find officers willing to put in the time to find 24 other good people.

Moreover, by your logic, because of this:

There are a couple fights that are technically harder on 10 man.


10 mans should get more loot in those fights.


Yes, they are harder.
90 Worgen Druid
17805
01/24/2013 10:12 AMPosted by Arës
How do they have a lower drop rate and it not be fair? You have more people in a 25 man, therefore more loot. Easy. How is Blizzard wanting to "lower their overall ilvl"? By implementing these changes? You act like everyone in 25m will get these and no one in 10m will.

First, people haven't double spaced after a finished sentence in ages.

Second, of course 25s get more loot, as they should. But on a relational level 25s got more loot before this change. More pieces dropped per raider. It's simple. 25s also have a much easier time giving their raiders the gear they need because they have more chances to have something useful drop and thereby increasing 25s ilevel compared to 10s. It's called statistics. A player in a 25 man guild (all things equal - raid comp, same bosses killed, gear given to everyone and not just loading on to one person, etc) will have BiS or closer to BiS MUCH, MUCH faster than a 10 man raider. And if it weren't for charms, the difference would be even greater (I've gotten half my gear from charms and have yet to see certain items drop at all).

I know these things, I had been a 25 man raider until MoP. The gearing rate is ridiculously faster in 25s.
Edited by Dysheki on 1/24/2013 10:33 AM PST
90 Gnome Mage
11465
It is significantly harder to be a RAIDER in a 25, not just an Officer. In a 10-man guild, chances are you're the only person playing your class. If you slack and get carried by your class (aka, a Mage or Warlock can top meters even playing poorly) you're still going to have your raid spot, and get gear.

In a 25, you have to compete against others of your class to be in on those first kills, and to be the first one to get a piece of loot. You have to fight and EARN your spot / gear far more than any 10-man player has ever had to do. It's the nature of a bigger raid and bigger roster. When a piece drops, you don't automatically get it, you're in line with tons of other people and hoping to prove your worth to earn that piece.


You think 10 mans don't recruit or replace people that don't perform? That's some serious bull!@#$ about having to "EARN" a spot being unique or more heightened to 25s. I could just as easily say that 10s have less room to carry mediocre players, therefore its harder to "earn" a sport in a 10--ultimately though, any differences in how hard it is to "earn" rewards is really up to your individual guild and how hardcore they want to be (e.g., how fast will they replace you) and is not a symptom of the number of folks raiding.

The second piece of this is just dumb:

10 mans drop 1 piece of loot for every 5 people. 25 mans drop 1 piece of loot for every 5 people....notice anything? We have the same odds of access to the number of pieces of gear. Nobody gets anything "automatically." There isn't class specific gear anymore, so yes, the three casters in a 10 man have to fight over the caster dagger that drops in a 10. In a 25, you have the same issue, scaled up exactly proportionately to your raid size.

Math is hard.

Besides, if you really want to play that game, tanks in 25s gear up more easily because there are usually still only 2 tanks and five shots per kill at tank-specific loot, whereas a 10 man has 2 tanks and only 2 shots per kill at tank specific loot.
Edited by Kellyann on 1/24/2013 11:01 AM PST
90 Worgen Druid
17805
01/24/2013 10:30 AMPosted by Ollix
Yes, they are harder.

25s are harder in coordination and space management, but in terms of general boss difficulties it varies per boss.
90 Gnome Mage
11465
01/24/2013 10:30 AMPosted by Ollix
Yes, they are harder.


No, they're not.

:-P

This is more of a fair statement:

01/24/2013 10:34 AMPosted by Dysheki
in terms of general boss difficulties it varies per boss.


And i'd go even farther and say it varies by individual mechanic. Here's an example within a single boss:

Blade Lord Ta'yak if three people fail to stack up for unseen strike in 10 man, it's gg. If three people don't stack up in 25, it doesn't matter--more room for error in the 25.

Same fight: windstep is harder to spread out for in a 25 because there are simply more people.
Edited by Kellyann on 1/24/2013 10:51 AM PST
92 Blood Elf Death Knight
14805
inherent incoherence of trying to use loot to solve logistical issues when loot has thus far proved a poor incentive. Why can't you?


This is going to cause some crazy loot drama in my 25 man.

Honestly I think enough people would be just satisfied with a blizzard run ranking system that separated the brackets. Pooling both raid sizes into one puts more pressure on the 25 man teams to keep up with the (obviously easier) 10m counterparts.

Separate Achievements, I know for my guild as a GM and for my Officers, would be a nice "reward" for our logistical challenge.
90 Human Paladin
18065
RNG of RNG loot is not fun or an incentive to draw me out of a 10man guild and start healing in a 25man guild. I remember DS with Vial of Shadows, Cunning of the Cruel, and Bone-link Fetish.

Blizzard spoke of wanting to reduce the logistics burden on the officers of 25man raiding guilds. So adding RNG of RNG "Epic Epic" loot for both raid size formats is supposed to convince more players to raid 25man? And this indirectly helps with logistics by increasing a recruitment pool to draw from? Yes, gear is a huge motivating factor for many raiders. But I fail to see how adding this feature will add any meaningful improvement to the current situation where 25mans already have a loot advantage over 10mans.

As players who have years of experience running 25man guilds have already stated, this adds more potential issues for the officers. Players not wanting to sit for farm because their "Epic Epic" item might dropped is just one example. Blizz wanted to reduce the logistics burden right?

If Blizz is going to convince me to join 25man raids over the current benefits of 10man raids,
lets start with weekly activities I do outside of raids to raid. Reduce that so I have more time to play alts etc. and now we are are making progress.

Here are some suggestions off the top of my head:
1) More valor per boss kill in 25man to the point where I can cap my weekly valor without doing anything else. 100 per boss kill would do this and I could still sit for farm bosses as I can cap without needing to be in for a full clear.
2) Lesser Charms rewarded for boss kills, more in 25mans. I am not talking the 2 per daily. I am talking 5+ per boss kill. Honestly, I wish dailies rewarded this much as well. 45 dailies? Really?
3) Remove the 25man feasts, add 25 charges to the current 10man feasts. This does not impact 10mans while making feasts more manageable for officers in 25mans.
4) Bring back flask cauldrons. Just like the above changes to feasts, make one cauldron size that has 25 flasks. 10mans will get 2 flasks per person (use one and keep the other like in Cata) as the benefit for the increased material cost.
5) Highly restricted Cross-realm raiding for the purpose of trying out recruits. No guild credit for kills, no loot to recruit, no achievement credit for anyone, saves the recruit to that lockout, and trading of materials is prohibited are a few measures that would, upon initial thought, need to be in place to prevent abuse.

Some cons to these suggestions include the impact profession/economies, World PvP (less people out in the world doing dailies), and potentially less fodder to keep LFG and LFR ques down. 1 and 2 also go against the MoP ideal of getting people back out into the world. 5 has so many hurdles and implications at this point, but it would help all raid sizes recruit cross server.

Even with all these changes and more, I am not confident my server can support a heroic raiding guild at the 25man level. A long term solution to shrinking raiding communities on servers would be ideal. As it is now, I am better off paying $25 bucks and moving to a more populated server, further increasing the growing disparity between server sizes and faction balance.
97 Undead Priest
15960
@Poena: Does anyone ever really get everything they want/need? If a 25m raiding group has set practices of who rotates, then this should already be implemented and therefore not change. If the person qq's because they are wanting more gear and why is person b getting to raid instead of them this week, well, that isn't teamwork now is it? If you have someone that leaves your 25m due to this, which I highly doubt, and they were rotated anyway, what will happen they go to another group? You as a leader (or whomever is) has the responsability to oversee these things. You should have set rules in place. You should enforce them. No one ever said being an officer or even raid leader was all butterflies and rainbow farts.


We have rules in place, and in most circumstances, overflow is managed by player need, which thanks to these new changes will never end. being a leader isn't butterflies and rainbows, but with this change will become even more complicated and troubling. You clearly don't get the social implications of this change. Since I was not able to explain it to you, maybe you should read Virtutis's post:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7709282055?page=28#554
97 Undead Priest
15960
Blade Lord Ta'yak if three people fail to stack up for unseen strike in 10 man, it's gg. If three people don't stack up in 25, it doesn't matter--more room for error in the 25.


If 30% of the 10man raid doesn't show up for unseen it's GG. If 30% of the 25man (7-8) it's also GG. Here's the catch though, in 10man If the unseen target is a mage/S.priest/Warlock then grats you have a get out of jail free card (lol yes, we have healed our warlock in 10man through dark bargin + unseen)
Edited by Poena on 1/24/2013 11:09 AM PST
90 Orc Death Knight
14190
All I've gotten out of this thread is that the people who want to coast on the ease of 10m raiding are upset that the scales are being tipped back towards 25m. Seriously, 10m raiding is a joke. Coming from a 25m guild we have gone to doing 10m MV because a handful of people need things from there. 10m Heroic Will of the Emperor... a complete joke. 10m guilds have no problem getting the same gear for less effort and swiping realm firsts for less effort, but when 25m gets offered an edge everyone throws their hands up and starts screaming about what's fair. Working your !@# off in a 25m progression guild only to have realm first taken by a 10m guild because the fights are easier on 10m is pretty fair...
90 Orc Death Knight
14190
01/24/2013 11:05 AMPosted by Poena
Blade Lord Ta'yak if three people fail to stack up for unseen strike in 10 man, it's gg. If three people don't stack up in 25, it doesn't matter--more room for error in the 25.


If 30% of the 10man raid doesn't show up for unseen it's GG. If 30% of the 25man (7-8) it's also GG. Here's the catch though, in 10man If the unseen target is a mage/S.priest/Warlock then grats you have a get out of jail free card (lol yes, we have healed our warlock in 10man through dark bargin + unseen)


The argument was already BS. You have less raiders on 10m than 25m, which means you don't have to spread as far for wind step, so everyone should be in range and ready to stack on unseen. The OP's example is just complete bs.
90 Gnome Mage
11465
01/24/2013 11:11 AMPosted by Shaniqua
The argument was already BS. You have less raiders on 10m than 25m, which means you don't have to spread as far for wind step, so everyone should be in range and ready to stack on unseen. The OP's example is just complete bs.


lol, okay, how about I argue that it's complete BS that 25s can afford to have several people simply ignore the mechanic because its not a wipe if 4-5 ppl in a 25 screw up unseen strike?
Edited by Kellyann on 1/24/2013 11:28 AM PST
90 Human Paladin
13780
I'm fine if the difference is like 5-10% increased drop rate for Thunderforged, but you make it sound like it's a huge increase. I'm going to guess not. But still. If it's like a Thunderforged every other boss on 25 man, and we might go the entire week without on in 10s, well that's not really fair at all, now is it?
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