10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Night Elf Druid
4435
Really excited for 5.2. I like raiding and haven't done a lot of raiding outside of LFR this expansion so this is really gonna motivate me.
90 Orc Warrior
9655
25 already have the advantage of more loot, to be honest.

I have raided 10man strictly since Cata. I prefer it, but frankly, the loot in 10 is just frustrating. Every teir the raid struggles for drops for weapons, tinkets, shields. I know it's RNG, but every teir we struggle for the same pieces, while we DE all the extra chests and pants and helms that drop once people have teir. 25man, with its extra loot drops from the same tables, never had that problem.

What would be nice in general is if there were, in general, more weapons and trinkets and the such. Because set bonus' are so powerful, we all end up going for those, thus making the tables flush with excess.

As for the question of 25 vs 10, I doubt you'll ever see 25 return to being the preferred raid unless you split loot tables and raid lockouts again. I don't actually mind that--25s are a hassle to run, have more interpersonal drama, and were just in general more stress than it was worth. Always preferred 10s to it, really, for that point.


Totally agree with you on this. Not only that but with many realms losing lots of population, it is very hard to get 25 skilled players together on a dead server, especially when you go to org/shrine at peak hours and there is a total of about 10-15 ppl between both of them.
90 Undead Priest
2270
I'll withhold judgement on the system until we see how long we have this raid tier. Eventually, the 10-mans will catch up in item levels to the 25-mans and all will be good. If the drops are even slightly out of sync though, we could be looking at weeks/months of 25-man guilds being far better geared than 10-mans.

I like where your intentions are, as there is a catch-up mechanic for 10-mans now so they aren't permanently behind. I just hope the drops rates are tuned properly.


25-man guilds should always be better geared than 10-man guilds...
90 Pandaren Monk
13830
01/24/2013 12:51 PMPosted by Trucks
Especially in 25m guilds, I can see this being the source of much loot drama. Let's say a star player gets a regular heroic piece one week. The next week, the Stormforged version of the item drops. This item is BiS and incredibly rare (being Stormforged and RNG what it is), so do the raid leaders decide to give this item to their star Rogue (for the second week in a row) since he will never replace it? Or do they give it to a less desirable candidate for BiS gear because he has something slightly similar? These decisions will be tough, and as if loot didn't cause enough drama for most players in this game, this will certainly add some fire to the... thing that gets fire added to it, I'm out of witty metaphors.


This is my nightmare. As a 25 man raid leader this change seriously makes me want to just drop to 10 mans and lose the headache this will cause.
90 Orc Mage
11910
I used to do 25 man raids avidly during Burning Crusade and WOTLK, but I'll never go back.

Raiding with a close knit group of 10 players is extremely more enjoyable.

On top of this after experiencing both perspectives of 10/25 I don't understand why people think 25 man is harder. Realistically 10 man has always been the harder, and is becoming easier more so now than it was in the past.

If you don't know what I mean about this raiding 10 man in the past was brutally vicious, if you didn't have the right group comps for particular fights you literally had to build new strategies to defeat bosses.( ie Conclave of Wind, Theralion and Valiona, Warmaster, spine, etc... ). On top of having the right group comp for the bosses you would also have to try and fit in all the best buffs for the group as nothing overlapped as it does now; which was tough when you had to add the mechanics of the fight.

On top of this 25 mans have it so much easier on some fights like Heroic Hagara and Deathwing. I remember seeing 25 man guilds 1 shotting Deathwing right after killing Heroic Spine; where as in 10 man Heroic Deathwing was just as bad as Heroic Spine..

Lastly, the absolute worst part of 10 man raiding is if we were short just 1 player we had to call our raid for progression as losing 1 player would be such a loss in DPS or Heals. In 25 man I've seen people pug almost 2-4 people and still do progression, and plus if someone !@#$s up in 25 man don't worry they get multiple Bresses.

Like I said I used to do 25 mans all the time, and switching to 10 mans. I look back and think 25 man is for %^-*!es. 10 man takes more skill for sure. Maybe 10 mans should get some love once in awhile, I mean Blizzard sure did screw us over in Firelands giving 25 man groups like 5 sets of legendary staves before 10 mans even got one....
90 Draenei Shaman
19050
01/24/2013 01:22 PMPosted by Wyzeguyy
Lastly, the absolute worst part of 10 man raiding is if we were short just 1 player we had to call our raid for progression as losing 1 player would be such a loss in DPS or Heals. In 25 man I've seen people pug almost 2-4 people and still do progression, and plus if someone !@#$s up in 25 man don't worry they get multiple Bresses.

Must have been a !@#$ty %^- guild then, no progression guild worth their salt pugs for progression.
90 Gnome Priest
17660
I haven't read all the posts in here but I've been trying to skim through them.

Nowhere do I see anyone saying "I'm currently in a 10 man guild and this makes my guild want to return to 25man".

And this doesn't address the core problem on most realms: there simply aren't enough raiders to sustain 25man guilds. We have problems on my realm just trying to recruit for 10man. The top guild on our realm doesn't even bother to recruit on realm, they go off realm and then have a !@#$% of a time trying to find anyone willing to move to a low pop realm.

You have to have sufficient players able to play the same days and the same times. The players need to have complementary personalities to create an atmosphere that people want to be part of. Most people don't log on to raid then log off. They spend a significant amount of time doing other things, like dailies to grind for VP gear, farming for mats for raid supplies, and whatever else they enjoy. They aren't going to want to stick around in a guild filled with abrasive personalities.

If Blizzard wants to fix the 25man issue, they need to consolidate realms so there's a large enough population for guilds to actually form. Someone suggested allowing cross realm raiding but not allowing those coming from other realms to get loot - won't work. If you can't get loot, you become less attractive to guilds that are recruiting because you don't have gear. No one is going to sit through several weeks of a trial period with a cross realm guild just to have that time wasted when they don't end up joining that guild and have now lost all those chances to get loot to improve their character.
90 Worgen Druid
13675
To all the players that say 10mans are easier then 25mans, they are not. 10mans suffer from not being able to have 1 of every class in a there raid at a given time, as well as if they have 2 of the same class. 25mans do not.

10 mans receive less then half the loot that 25mans do, at 2 drops vs 6, the drops are also at a higher risk of being useless after 1-3 weeks, 25mans usually don't have this issue.

To be progressive in 10mans you must have 11-13 man roster of different specs and the 1+ class you can't take into every 10man, and or a bunch of alts. These extra 1-3 people have to still be geared enough for the content, while fighting for 1 of those 10 spots. 25mans may still need a 26-30 person roster, but they rarely require you to change out 1/3 of your raid group to complete a boss.

The argument of 10man vs 25man bosses being easier or harder is a moot point because every encounter it changes in favor of 10 or 25man. Just because 25mans may need more "social", "babysitting", and "sheep herding" work doesn't make 25mans the "true progression raid, cuz its harder". Most good Raid Leaders, Guild Leaders, and Officers will tell you they deal with the same, if not similar trials and obstacles in both formats with strats, recruitment, drama, off raid time prep, and so on.

The only true 100% bonus 10mans have over 25mans is that 10s are easier on computers. Less people, less flashy graphics, less information being sent every .1 second to your computer.

As for Blizzards idea to make 25mans still a "true option", this new idea doesn't fix anything. In BC 25mans were king, since there were only 10 man raids, and then 25man raids, none of this two versions of the same raid. Wrath 25mans were king, they dropped higher ilevel and sometimes different items then 10man. Cata 10mans were king, because Blizzard changed them to be in equal ilevel and two versions of the same raid and to aslo have the exact same drops. Mop will have 10mans as king again, unless they do something to fix the issues with computers, social, babysitting, and sheep herding that 25mans require more of. Which I can't see the 3 later ones being within their power to fix.

Personally I think they should just pick 1 raid size and stick with it. While I realize why they don't want to do this, I still think it would be a better option then "you can't raid 25mans because there aren't many left." They don't want to force us into any size raid group, whatever we like, but what they don't see is that it may be impossible without harming one or the other, this change to more 10man guilds is just natural selection...

The only other idea I can think of that may solve this issue, would be to have realm guilds, like we have now, and cross realm guilds. This would give 25man guilds the "pool" of player they require, and those people that want to do 25mans more options. The same would go for 10mans, but this would favor 25mans a bit more. We can already do some cross realm things, why can't we do this? Most of it would be through chat/party/raid anyway, which isn't any different then RL ID and LFR now.
Edited by Souxlya on 1/24/2013 1:50 PM PST
90 Orc Mage
11910
01/24/2013 01:27 PMPosted by Primalshock
Lastly, the absolute worst part of 10 man raiding is if we were short just 1 player we had to call our raid for progression as losing 1 player would be such a loss in DPS or Heals. In 25 man I've seen people pug almost 2-4 people and still do progression, and plus if someone !@#$s up in 25 man don't worry they get multiple Bresses.

Must have been a !@#$ty %^- guild then, no progression guild worth their salt pugs for progression.


You're right you don't even have to pug actually. I remember during WOTLK we had people not show up for Heroic ICC 25 man, so we just did progression with 22-23 people, and we still downed bosses, lol.
90 Gnome Priest
17660
Please remove 10 Heroic from the game entirely.

It would create a return to raiding in the US / EU like what has happened in China, and bring back the millions of players who left after Wrath because of how awful Cataclysm was. It was an interesting experiment - it has been 2 years, and it obviously failed (unless losing 30% of your subscribers is success?).

Bring back 25 as the premiere raiding option for high-end raiders.

How does catering to the whims of the 1% help the game?

That 30% subscriber loss included far more non-raiders than raiders. If it was only raiders, raiding would be completely dead in this game already. Raiders have never been a majority of the player population.
90 Undead Priest
14805
On top of this 25 mans have it so much easier on some fights like Heroic Hagara and Deathwing. I remember seeing 25 man guilds 1 shotting Deathwing right after killing Heroic Spine; where as in 10 man Heroic Deathwing was just as bad as Heroic Spine..

Lastly, the absolute worst part of 10 man raiding is if we were short just 1 player we had to call our raid for progression as losing 1 player would be such a loss in DPS or Heals. In 25 man I've seen people pug almost 2-4 people and still do progression, and plus if someone !@#$s up in 25 man don't worry they get multiple Bresses.


So 2 fights in an 8 boss raid were easier on 25s? Man, what a joke difficulty. Personally I'd add in Morchok to your cause cause group comp for that was mildly annoying, at least pre-nerfs, but even then a huge pushover. Leaving things out like Ultraxion? Where the personal dps requirement for 25man raiders was 6-8k higher than 10mans? Or how about spine? Sure, DW was easier and Hagara has a phase that was easier, arguably, but overall player requirements were less as far as numbers go in 10s during that time.

Your second paragraph is so off base it is almost hard to believe I'm responding to it. I would like to know what guilds were 22 manning progression bosses without a debuff. If you are talking post 30% nerf, which I'm sure you are, that was the point of the damn thing. To make life easier on people so they could kill bosses even down people to see their next progression.

01/24/2013 01:39 PMPosted by Wyzeguyy
You're right you don't even have to pug actually. I remember during WOTLK we had people not show up for Heroic ICC 25 man, so we just did progression with 22-23 people, and we still downed bosses, lol.


Oh, another zone with a scaling buff that makes it easier to kill bosses and you are surprised it's possible down members? I remember doing ICC10 heroic with 5 players for fun to see if we could. We didn't make it overly far, but got 6 killed all the same. I guess since it was possible once to do 10man raids with only 1/2 the raid there, that it MUST be the same case now in an instance without a nerf/buff going on while on current content!

You heard it here first folks, 10mans are doable with only 1/2 your raid now. Must be a joke version of the raids.

See, it sounds dumb, don't you think?
90 Undead Priest
14805
Please remove 10 Heroic from the game entirely.

It would create a return to raiding in the US / EU like what has happened in China, and bring back the millions of players who left after Wrath because of how awful Cataclysm was. It was an interesting experiment - it has been 2 years, and it obviously failed (unless losing 30% of your subscribers is success?).

Bring back 25 as the premiere raiding option for high-end raiders.

How does catering to the whims of the 1% help the game?

That 30% subscriber loss included far more non-raiders than raiders. If it was only raiders, raiding would be completely dead in this game already. Raiders have never been a majority of the player population.


While I agree with you assessment, I always hated when people use percents when dealing with the raiding population to whole game population. The raiding population, according to WoWprogress, is, at absolute most, assuming all guilds are 25mans, which they arent, 10% of the games population.

And yes, while 1% of the games population isn't a whole lot, 10% of the raiding population is a bit more drastic. Obviously the 1% is a made up number as the real number is quite annoying to find out, but the fact remains the same. We are fighting over raiding population and not game population, so the numbers are a bit different than most people let on.
90 Undead Priest
14805
To all the players that say 10mans are easier then 25mans, they are not. 10mans suffer from not being able to have 1 of every class in a there raid at a given time, as well as if they have 2 of the same class. 25mans do not.

10 mans receive less then half the loot that 25mans do, at 2 drops vs 6, the drops are also at a higher risk of being useless after 1-3 weeks, 25mans usually don't have this issue.


I stopped raiding here to correct the two issues with your first two paragraphs before finishing.

Do you think all 25mans have everything they need always? Do you think that 4+ of one class isn't as much of a burden on 25s as 2 is on 10s? Have you tried heroic will on 25s without a DK? It's not quite a fun as it might sound. We had to drop to 10s to do Will on heroic because we lacked a single DK. Even then, one DK is pushing it for the strat we have to use.

While I agree that 10s suffer sometimes from lack of classes, 25s can do that as well. The ones who don't suffer that are the top end guilds, in both 10s and 25s, as they have lots of either bench or alts ready to go. Normal middle of the ground guilds on both sides suffer from the same issues.

5 loots. We get 5 loots per boss. We get 6 when there are tier drops, so we get an extra tier item per tier boss. That's 5 extra looted items over "balance" each week, not the 15+ you make it sound like.
90 Gnome Priest
7555
01/23/2013 03:01 PMPosted by Lissanna
Right, but it's important to address the fact that the rapidly disappearing 25-mans from the face of WOW raiding isn't necessarily because people don't like the raid size - but that they tipped the scales so far in the favor of 10s that 25s suffered as a result.


Not only that, but once you go to 10's for whatever reason, it's much harder to get back to 25's just due to recruiting challenges. You can't call yourself a 25 man guild because you don't raid 25's. You can't guarantee everyone a spot in the raid because, well... You only have 10 spots and (generally) don't have enough people to run a second 10 man in the interim while you recruit a sizeable enough roster for 25's.

This, in essence, is what's happened to my guild. When I joined it during Firelands, they were a 25 man raiding guild but have since had many people leave due to real life changes. We're currently running 10 mans (and even that's difficult because even more people are having real life stuff happen) but several of us would rather go back to 25 mans.

If there's one thing that I really don't like seeing in debates like this, it's that "more people are running 10 mans so they must like them more." I prefer 25 mans and am forced into a 10 man raiding environment. Don't assume that everyone running 10 mans prefer them.

01/24/2013 02:26 PMPosted by Telepathy
While I agree that 10s suffer sometimes from lack of classes, 25s can do that as well.


We used to run with 6 druids in our 25 man raid, not to mention the 1-2 DK's, two mages and two rogues. Nearly half the raid group rolled on the same tier token.
Edited by Asiel on 1/24/2013 2:51 PM PST
85 Human Mage
3070
01/23/2013 09:07 AMPosted by Daerioz
This will not help bring back 25s.


This. 25 player needs different model/color schemes AND higher ilvl to be set apart from 10 player. This just seems like a lazy attempt to set the two difficulties apart
90 Gnome Death Knight
13415
Frankly, the solution isn't to incentivize 25-mans, it's just to make it easier for the people who prefer to play 25 to do so.

Cross-realm guilds would pretty much end the argument that it's impossible to find enough people to field a 25-man guild.
90 Undead Priest
14805
Why can't they just go back to split raids? I would love that system. Two, or 4, raids each tier, one 10man one 25man, or 2 and 2. That why there would be no arguing or problems with how has the easier format or anything. Each group could do their own format at their own rate.

Wouldn't need to split anything archievement or lockout wise since they'd only have one option per zone. LFR would remain 25man so 10s people could see content in 25s. This would encourge pugging for both formats. It would give 25s an "easier" time due to being able to clear both formats but that could just be adjusted in the tuning of those encounters. The loot would be the same stats/ilvl just with a reskin and name change to fit the zone.

They could lock realm firsts so only one per guild is allowed.

That tossed in with server merges and bam, all problems solved with no issues.
90 Worgen Druid
4810
01/24/2013 02:55 PMPosted by Wwel
Cross-realm guilds would pretty much end the argument that it's impossible to find enough people to field a 25-man guild.


No, that would be LFR.

A 25 man "cross realm" guild would be more of a nightmare than what we have now imo =o

25 mans don't just need *players*, they need *leaders* and those leaders need some sort of incentive/reward to deal with the nuisances of leading/managing/maintaining a 25 man guild.
90 Troll Druid
11620
01/24/2013 01:41 PMPosted by Joynal
How does catering to the whims of the 1% help the game?

Because those 1% are the ones making the strategies you use to kill the boss.

Honestly now. When was the last time you went into a new tier completely uninformed and did not ask ANYONE for help?

01/24/2013 02:50 PMPosted by Rlwizard
25 player needs different model/color schemes AND higher ilvl to be set apart from 10 player. This just seems like a lazy attempt to set the two difficulties apart

Higher ilvl won't solve anything. You'll be pushing the current issue on a different party.

Loot is still the same ilvl between 25man and 10man.
Give 25man guaranteed TF'd drops. (Not every single drop, but at least 1, up to 3, per boss)
Give 25man Lesser Charms for killing bosses in a 25-player lockout. (5 per)
Give 25man faster VP acquisition (50 | 75).
Bring back Cauldrons specifically to support 30 players (Requires 4 of each flask).

It needs to be a "Wow!" factor. Tackle the issue like you're handling Monk PVP buffs.
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