10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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100 Pandaren Priest
20400
I'd prefer 25s just being beyond a shadow of a doubt harder instead of attempting to make them equal and igniting discussion. Make 25s objectively more difficult, tighter or even shorter enrages, targeted mechanics that affect more than just 2.5x the amount of people. Higher loot isn't necessary, but making impossible to argue about which is harder would promote 25s as THE difficulty for those who care.
90 Orc Shaman
13550
01/24/2013 01:22 PMPosted by Wyzeguyy
Raiding with a close knit group of 10 players is extremely more enjoyable.


Which is fine. The goal isn't to move players like you into 25s.

The goals are to move players who are on the fence into 25s, and maybe players who haven't tried 25s to try them, and to get the players who want to raid 25s but can't for whatever reason into 25s, and to keep 25s from dissolving into 10s.

Of those goals, this change might help accomplish the last one. Unfortunately, the tier won't last long enough to get any reasonable data and if they use it for enough tiers to get reasonable data the other goals will be just as far away.

This change can also make the situation worse for many reasons, among them being loot drama and player swaps over farm content.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
3235
Bring back ICC raiding format and I'll happily start raiding 25 man again.
100 Draenei Death Knight
19375
Can we stop with the whole 10man vs 25 man stupidity? Both have their hardships and their relative eases.

The problem is that Blizzard is targeting the wrong aspect of raiding to create more 25 mans. So stop talking as if Blizzard is trying to abolish one or the other... they're trying to create a method in which both can coexist in a manner that is relatively equal.
90 Worgen Mage
15160

How does catering to the whims of the 1% help the game?

That 30% subscriber loss included far more non-raiders than raiders. If it was only raiders, raiding would be completely dead in this game already. Raiders have never been a majority of the player population.


While I agree with you assessment, I always hated when people use percents when dealing with the raiding population to whole game population. The raiding population, according to WoWprogress, is, at absolute most, assuming all guilds are 25mans, which they arent, 10% of the games population.

And yes, while 1% of the games population isn't a whole lot, 10% of the raiding population is a bit more drastic. Obviously the 1% is a made up number as the real number is quite annoying to find out, but the fact remains the same. We are fighting over raiding population and not game population, so the numbers are a bit different than most people let on.


The sad thing is that the best numbers we have show two things from WotLK to now. 94% of 25 man guilds disappeared, and ~ 50% of characters raiding normal or heroic disappeared. Those same numbers also show more people stopped raiding end game than moved to 10 man. Now there is no way of us knowing how accurate those numbers are, and in fact the only people who know for sure are Blizzard, but that is what our numbers available to us tell us.

Personally, I am not sure making 10 progression viable was a good trade off for losing half the raiding population. But then there are dedicated 10 man raiders here that would disagree.

At the end of the day, Blizzard spent so much time trying to make the encounters "technically" the same, they forgot to make them equally attractive - or decided naively that it didn't matter. History has now shown us that there are too many hurdles and road blocks for players to form new 25 man player guilds, particularly when 10 mans are considerably easier to form.

The arguments about difficulty are pointless. Blizzard went to great lengths to make them as close to equal as possible and quite frankly "difficulty" has nothing to do with this problem. They are entirely different raids. They have different requirements on each size, different strategies, different group make up requirements, different size limitations, different CD limitations, different base raid failure rates - the point is, they should never have been designed to be the same thing in the first place.

Now they have essentially opened pandora's box and cannot close it again. People have to remember it is a game. If the roadblock to forming a new 25 man is that much steeper than a 10 man, then overall 25 mans are going to be considerably less popular. There is no getting around this. In order to make populations more equal and give both formats a chance to be viable, the choice for those new players whether to form a 10man or 25man needs to be balanced. You need to be able to look at the sizes and go "If I raid 10 mans, I get this benefit and that benefit but this is not so good". They need to look at the 25 man option and go "Hey that bad option from 10 is much better here, but oh that is worse" and "hmmm".

Right now, there is no attractive feature of 25 mans that balance this view out. Instead for a new player, looking at the options "hmm 10 or 25 man", it becomes more of "So I get these rewards for 10 man, cool, now is there a reason to try to find 24 other people to raid? Let's see, hmm the only difference I can see is they get a bit more loot than 10's..... is that it? Pfft I am not !@#$ing wasting my time and stress playing this fun game trying to get that ridiculous number of people for what, higher amount of raid drops in a week? IF we kill bosses?"

The point here is that no matter what you do Blizzard has a choice. If they want BOTH raid sizes to be viable, the only option is to offset the difficulty in forming 25 mans with something that makes them attractive enough to test the difficulty in doing so. This inherently means that 10 mans will not have the same benefit. It is the only way to make this change as nothing else will work.

Also on a personal note here, making your 10 man raids viable had immeasurable cost on end game raiding, and most of it was not good. It had disastrous effects to the 25 man raids due to Blizzard's bad implementation of the changeover. I find it therefore a combination of both coming across incredibly selfish and also ignorant when people complain about any change that may have even the slightest negative impact on 10 mans. So what, the negative impacts of having 10's viable in the first place is entirely disregarded because..... you don't like to think about it? You didn't know about it? Is it not more than a little hypocritical that you are happy with the cost entolled on end game raiding to have your format - when it suits you - but when it is the other way, oh hell no %^-*!@?

On a related note. There are many people in this thread making suggestions that do not seem to have experience, or the forethought to think through those suggestions as to whether they are helpful to 25 mans.

Cross realm raiding on current content will NOT help 25 mans. This greatly increases the logisitical nightmare of running them and considering that this is the one main issue that is causing friction right now, increasing the work involved feels a bit like throwing salt on the open wound.

On the same note, this suggested change (Thunderforged), ALSO increases the work involved and logisitcs in loot management not to mention the difficulties imposed on the standby roster, so once again, salt in wound.

For those aggravated from the 10 man side about what this would do to your precious 10 mans, be reassured - the only consequence of this change for 25 mans is making things worse not better, which also happens to mean you might get new raiders when those next guilds collapse. I cannot find a reason for the arguments against this change from a 10 man perspective to be honest.
90 Human Warlock
3740
yea its called go back to the loot style of wrath of the LK. 10 and 25m separate, why complicate things further
94 Gnome Warlock
1970
Remove 10-man Heroic mode.

Problem solved. 25 man guilds will thrive. People start as a 10, get through the Normals, as they start expanding into Heroic modes, they recruit more DPS and Healers and go from there.


Why should 10m's suffer because a minority within the 25m community are upset that their format isn't the only way to raid anymore?
90 Troll Druid
2860
I understand that you want to incentivize 25 man raiding. I have no problem with that.

My concern is the mechanics of this may actually harm heroic 10 man guild progression.

It seems somewhat counter-intuitive but it boils down to off-spec gearing. For 10-man guilds that are pushing full heroic clears they often are forced to rely on some of their raiders being fully geared in at least two specs. (Some encounters require 2 healers instead of 3 or 1 tank instead of 2, for example).

If suddenly those early drops are taken multiple times for main-spec gear it makes it even more difficult to gear up off-specs.

You can say that off-spec gear is less important than main-spec gear; and that's true. But if a given fight calls for only one tank because of strict enrage timers we NEED our second tank to be putting out near main-spec DPS numbers in their off-spec. It's going to be hard for us to ask them to do that with diminished access to the appropriate gear.

If Thunderforged gear is already going to be a small chance to drop anyway, would it be too much to ask that when it does drop it doesn't replace an existing item but is in addition to? My concern is that we won't be able to keep our dual-specced raiders viably geared for heroic content if the same items are taken multiple times for main-spec purposes.


My concern is the arguments/complaints of 10m raiders get more pathetic and less logical by the minute similarly to this post....and as a result more 10m raiders get 'frustrated' over issues that are either non existent or irrelevant...LOL...like honestly just imagining stuff here.

How in the world does Thunderforged impact your ability to gear secondary specs? Lets play along and take thunderforged items out of the game and assume all the same...you would have the same item drop a second time and it would just be disenchanted or go to that secondary spec...now instead you just get a more powerful of the same thing...if the secondary spec is that important to you as a guild, you do with it like you normally would and give it to that person...the only thing you would have to deal with is the QQ & ego of butthurt people that don't realize gear is for progression and not egos, but if that is who you have in your guild....well then that might be the problem. Hate to break it to you but tough gear decisions and a decent thought process is part of progression.... WELCOME TO 25m ENVIRONMENT where you deal with that 1000 times more.

Back to the point though, taking the same situation and just adding in thuderforged does the exact opposite you complained about. All it does is add more ilvl...which is very far from removing the ability to gear secondary specs. If anything, secondary specs get higher ilvl...Maybe for once you will have to actually make a decision about loot...LOL...and not just give it to the 1 person in raid that can use an item (LOL 10m)

...its lovely to see the stress its already causing you...think of that on a 25m scale...where secondary specs are still needed in addition to probably 7-8 more subs you need.

oh your post was just too comical...
77 Human Priest
11500
What's the new difference between 10 and 25? This isn't a change.
90 Human Warlock
9480


We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.


This sounds very interesting but I would very MUCH like to point out that while I do not have the best machine in the game to play it's fairly decent and doing 25's ALWAYS lags me out and I'm not the only one. As my guild does LFR we sit and chat on our vent server and literally everyone has so much lag that doing 25's is very UNAPPEALING. I hope that is one of the concerns that is going to be addressed since that's where the chance of dropping this new gear is highest.
90 Troll Druid
2860
Also to address all the other QQ'ers of 'omg why upset 10m raiders so much but changing things..blah blah blah'

Fact is there are players in 10m that want to be raiding 25m but find it difficult to manage or find guilds or have computer problems and creating a new 25m guild at the moment is next to impossible

Other fact is that there are very very very few, if not any, people raiding 25m that want to be raiding 10m...

So blizzard is trying to help all the frustrated people stuck in 10m that dont want to be. It is a valid issue that 10m players just seem to be ignoring.

Oh blizzards solution though...this has got to be one of the worst ones yet...an average ilvl of maybe 1 higher over the course of a tier....honestly that is a joke. LOL
Edited by Sandman on 1/24/2013 4:09 PM PST
94 Gnome Warlock
1970
01/24/2013 03:48 PMPosted by Virtutis
I cannot find a reason for the arguments against this change from a 10 man perspective to be honest.


To put it succinctly, being given lesser rewards for the same effort in content isn't acceptable, and it feels like we're being badgered by Blizzard to run a format we don't like in order to get rewards that are appropriate for the feats being accomplished.

Going beyond why this change is frustrating for 10's, it's just a bad idea all around. They removed the VP upgrade system in 5.2 only to introduce an RNG driven system that effectively does the exact same thing, only in a more detrimental fashion for the game due to the ilvl inflation that's going to happen because of it. Beyond that, this system of incentives for 25's has failed every time they've tried it because "lack of loot" isn't why 25's are suffering in terms creation/maintanence. They need logistical help and QoL improvements with recruitment and consumable maintenance. Making transfers free, allowing cross-realm raiding of current content, and swapping to a loot lockout system (vs boss lockouts) would all do far more for 25's than going back to a "10's aren't progression raiding anymore, Sincerely Blizzard" system.
90 Troll Druid
11620
01/24/2013 03:48 PMPosted by Virtutis
The sad thing is that the best numbers we have show two things from WotLK to now. 94% of 25 man guilds disappeared, and ~ 50% of characters raiding normal or heroic disappeared

While its impossible to confirm those numbers, there is merit to them. (Much like how simcraft can give you an idea of what you could be doing -- given the sim models are good -- these numbres can also give you an idea of the decline.)

Given those numbers are relatively true (which I'm sure there are), 94% of 25man lost in favor of Subscription Losses + 10man seems...oh...ridiculous. Using the "10man syndrome" logic, was making 10man raiding really worth the mutilation of another playstyle?
94 Gnome Warlock
1970
Fact is there are players in 10m that want to be raiding 25m but find it difficult to manage or find guilds and creating a new 25m guild at the moment is next to impossible


Shafting 10's when they're doing the same fights at the same difficulty in no way resolves this problem. It's a logistical problem and a lack of leadership problem; neither of which have anything to do with the raid content.
94 Gnome Warlock
1970
01/24/2013 04:10 PMPosted by Cyous
Using the "10man syndrome" logic, was making 10man raiding really worth the mutilation of another playstyle?


The only thing that stops 25s from being viable is the community's enjoyment of the format, or in this case the lack of it. Yes, there are logistical difficulties faced by 25's that are a bit harsher for them than for 10's (although 10's face the same issues, especially on servers like mine), and Blizzard should be attempting to address those problems. This, however, is not one of the ways to do it.
90 Pandaren Warrior
14700
Unfortunately, this isn't enough to encourage 25 mans to start back up. I'm all for the change, but the problem is the incentive for 25 mans will have to be so significant they become superior to 10 mans. It just isn't possible, so a realistic goal would be to hit a sweet spot right below that amount of incentive. Which will be near impossible.
90 Undead Priest
14805
01/24/2013 04:15 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Using the "10man syndrome" logic, was making 10man raiding really worth the mutilation of another playstyle?


The only thing that stops 25s from being viable is the community's enjoyment of the format, or in this case the lack of it. Yes, there are logistical difficulties faced by 25's that are a bit harsher for them than for 10's (although 10's face the same issues, especially on servers like mine), and Blizzard should be attempting to address those problems. This, however, is not one of the ways to do it.


I don't think anyone is saying this way is what is going to fix things. I have seen a single post saying that their guild is going to try 25mans and that is only because they run 2 10man teams with a roster of 24, so picking up 5 or so people isn't too hard.

But at the same time there needs to be toes stepped on. If they keep this status quo of being the "same", 25s will die off minus the top 50 world guilds.

10s needs to take a hit to save 25s in the same way that 25s took a hit to save 10s at the end of Wrath/start of Cata. Obviously not to that extreme, but it has to be something pretty damn big to balance it out.

Any real idea that could work given by a 25man officer/raid leader/GM is met with a bunch of qq and whining about how unfair it is when the reverse is what is currently had. Something has to be exclusively given to 25mans to bring people back AND keep them there.
94 Gnome Warlock
1970
01/24/2013 04:36 PMPosted by Telepathy
Any real idea that could work given by a 25man officer/raid leader/GM is met with a bunch of qq and whining about how unfair it is when the reverse is what is currently had.


Address logistic problems with logistic solutions. Going back to 25's being the only progression content isn't a logistical solution to a logistics problem.
100 Draenei Shaman
20035
01/24/2013 04:38 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Any real idea that could work given by a 25man officer/raid leader/GM is met with a bunch of qq and whining about how unfair it is when the reverse is what is currently had.


Address logistic problems with logistic solutions. Going back to 25's being the only progression content isn't a logistical solution to a logistics problem.

To get more people back into 25s isn't a logistics problem, no one will go from easymode 10s to 25s because they can get longer flasks or better feasts. There needs to be a clear advantage, an incentive, to be 25 which is the point of them doing this, don't think this rng gear will work but people need to get it out of their head that a 'logistic' solution will fix this at all.
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