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01/24/2013 01:22 PMPosted by WyzeguyyRaiding with a close knit group of 10 players is extremely more enjoyable.
How does catering to the whims of the 1% help the game?
That 30% subscriber loss included far more non-raiders than raiders. If it was only raiders, raiding would be completely dead in this game already. Raiders have never been a majority of the player population.
While I agree with you assessment, I always hated when people use percents when dealing with the raiding population to whole game population. The raiding population, according to WoWprogress, is, at absolute most, assuming all guilds are 25mans, which they arent, 10% of the games population.
And yes, while 1% of the games population isn't a whole lot, 10% of the raiding population is a bit more drastic. Obviously the 1% is a made up number as the real number is quite annoying to find out, but the fact remains the same. We are fighting over raiding population and not game population, so the numbers are a bit different than most people let on.
Remove 10-man Heroic mode.
Problem solved. 25 man guilds will thrive. People start as a 10, get through the Normals, as they start expanding into Heroic modes, they recruit more DPS and Healers and go from there.
I understand that you want to incentivize 25 man raiding. I have no problem with that.
My concern is the mechanics of this may actually harm heroic 10 man guild progression.
It seems somewhat counter-intuitive but it boils down to off-spec gearing. For 10-man guilds that are pushing full heroic clears they often are forced to rely on some of their raiders being fully geared in at least two specs. (Some encounters require 2 healers instead of 3 or 1 tank instead of 2, for example).
If suddenly those early drops are taken multiple times for main-spec gear it makes it even more difficult to gear up off-specs.
You can say that off-spec gear is less important than main-spec gear; and that's true. But if a given fight calls for only one tank because of strict enrage timers we NEED our second tank to be putting out near main-spec DPS numbers in their off-spec. It's going to be hard for us to ask them to do that with diminished access to the appropriate gear.
If Thunderforged gear is already going to be a small chance to drop anyway, would it be too much to ask that when it does drop it doesn't replace an existing item but is in addition to? My concern is that we won't be able to keep our dual-specced raiders viably geared for heroic content if the same items are taken multiple times for main-spec purposes.
We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.
To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.
It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.
01/24/2013 03:48 PMPosted by VirtutisI cannot find a reason for the arguments against this change from a 10 man perspective to be honest.
01/24/2013 03:48 PMPosted by VirtutisThe sad thing is that the best numbers we have show two things from WotLK to now. 94% of 25 man guilds disappeared, and ~ 50% of characters raiding normal or heroic disappeared
Fact is there are players in 10m that want to be raiding 25m but find it difficult to manage or find guilds and creating a new 25m guild at the moment is next to impossible
01/24/2013 04:10 PMPosted by CyousUsing the "10man syndrome" logic, was making 10man raiding really worth the mutilation of another playstyle?
01/24/2013 04:15 PMPosted by BomdanilUsing the "10man syndrome" logic, was making 10man raiding really worth the mutilation of another playstyle?
The only thing that stops 25s from being viable is the community's enjoyment of the format, or in this case the lack of it. Yes, there are logistical difficulties faced by 25's that are a bit harsher for them than for 10's (although 10's face the same issues, especially on servers like mine), and Blizzard should be attempting to address those problems. This, however, is not one of the ways to do it.
01/24/2013 04:36 PMPosted by TelepathyAny real idea that could work given by a 25man officer/raid leader/GM is met with a bunch of qq and whining about how unfair it is when the reverse is what is currently had.
01/24/2013 04:38 PMPosted by BomdanilAny real idea that could work given by a 25man officer/raid leader/GM is met with a bunch of qq and whining about how unfair it is when the reverse is what is currently had.
Address logistic problems with logistic solutions. Going back to 25's being the only progression content isn't a logistical solution to a logistics problem.
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