10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

(Locked)

93 Gnome Warlock
1945
01/24/2013 04:51 PMPosted by Primalshock
To get more people back into 25s isn't a logistics problem,


That's exactly what it is. Raiding populations on many servers can't support 25m progression minded runs anymore because they lack the playerpool or skill base to make it work. Every problem that 25's have right now, from the horse's mouth itself, is "It's hard to get people into our guild/raid groups and keep them there". That's a purely logistical problem, and one that Blizzard could easily resolve without making 10's suffer an even larger gear disparity than they already endure currently.
90 Human Death Knight
18060
Another concern is that the tier sets won't have a thunderforged version. If the set bonus is not balanced right, simply having all thunderforged pieces with better optimized stats will be better than wearing tier gear.
90 Worgen Druid
17805
01/24/2013 04:36 PMPosted by Telepathy
10s needs to take a hit to save 25s in the same way that 25s took a hit to save 10s at the end of Wrath/start of Cata.

That's one of the silliest things I've heard in a while, that 10 man raiding needed saved.

01/24/2013 03:48 PMPosted by Virtutis
Also on a personal note here, making your 10 man raids viable had immeasurable cost on end game raiding, and most of it was not good. It had disastrous effects to the 25 man raids due to Blizzard's bad implementation of the changeover. I find it therefore a combination of both coming across incredibly selfish and also ignorant when people complain about any change that may have even the slightest negative impact on 10 mans. So what, the negative impacts of having 10's viable in the first place is entirely disregarded because..... you don't like to think about it? You didn't know about it? Is it not more than a little hypocritical that you are happy with the cost entolled on end game raiding to have your format - when it suits you - but when it is the other way, oh hell no %^-*!@?

No, people just want it to be even. I don't see how that is hypocritical of anyone at all.

On a related note. There are many people in this thread making suggestions that do not seem to have experience, or the forethought to think through those suggestions as to whether they are helpful to 25 mans.

Cross realm raiding on current content will NOT help 25 mans. This greatly increases the logisitical nightmare of running them and considering that this is the one main issue that is causing friction right now, increasing the work involved feels a bit like throwing salt on the open wound.

Will they help heroic raiding? Not really. Will they help casual 25 normal kills? Absolutely. Have you ever used anything like Open Raid or oQueue? It's really easy to get a cross-realm group together. I used to run HK premades, the biggest trouble was 39 keeping people's attention while doing the same thing over and over for hours.
90 Orc Shaman
13750
01/24/2013 04:15 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Using the "10man syndrome" logic, was making 10man raiding really worth the mutilation of another playstyle?


The only thing that stops 25s from being viable is the community's enjoyment of the format, or in this case the lack of it. Yes, there are logistical difficulties faced by 25's that are a bit harsher for them than for 10's (although 10's face the same issues, especially on servers like mine), and Blizzard should be attempting to address those problems. This, however, is not one of the ways to do it.


Hm, no.

I'll use an analogy I mentioned earlier. Wendy's a half hour round trip, Jack in the Box 1 block away. I like Wendy's more, Jack is more convenient. Guess where I go more often.

Some people dislike 25s, yes. Some others probably want to 25s, but 10s are more convenient so they do those. Or perhaps they quit.
100 Draenei Mage
19285
The only way they're going to get people to do harder content in a more difficult format is with loot/legendaries/etc. This change is a drop in the bucket.

They should start by cleaving all the "first" achievements in two - one for 10 man, one for 25.
90 Orc Shaman
13750
01/24/2013 04:51 PMPosted by Primalshock


Address logistic problems with logistic solutions. Going back to 25's being the only progression content isn't a logistical solution to a logistics problem.

To get more people back into 25s isn't a logistics problem, no one will go from easymode 10s to 25s because they can get longer flasks or better feasts. There needs to be a clear advantage, an incentive, to be 25 which is the point of them doing this, don't think this rng gear will work but people need to get it out of their head that a 'logistic' solution will fix this at all.


Actually, flasks, feasts and repairs are exactly the type of logical problem that could be addressed.
90 Worgen Mage
15160
No, people just want it to be even. I don't see how that is hypocritical of anyone at all.


That's not it at all. Over an over in this thread are people proclaiming that the only solution to this issue is one that does not affect 10 man in the slightest because someone that's a big no no. There is a poster, two posts above your that literally just finished saying that. There is a lot of selfish behavior and hypocritical behavior coming from 10 man raiders in relation to these raid sizes, and they most certainly do not want things to be equal because equal means the 10 mans lose out on something.

Will they help heroic raiding? Not really. Will they help casual 25 normal kills? Absolutely. Have you ever used anything like Open Raid or oQueue? It's really easy to get a cross-realm group together. I used to run HK premades, the biggest trouble was 39 keeping people's attention while doing the same thing over and over for hours.


Cross realm raiding will make no difference to 25 man raids in normal and heroic modes. Cross realms for LFR already exist - it is called LFR. Right now, even under the umbrella of a guild, normal guilds suffer progression problems and significant time delays killing bosses due to the difficulty jump. Well organized and well run cross realms raids might kill a few bosses but the logistics in organizing these are even worse than the current system of in server solution.

To suggest hat this somehow would make things better is really off the table. There is no positive outcome for N/H heroic raiding with current cross realm raids. This is one of those rainbow coloured cloud solutions that looks pretty and sounds cool but at the end of the day have far more negative impacts that positive ones - much like this Thunderforged idea incidentally.
100 Undead Warlock
20925
and people say blizzard doesn't listen ^.^
93 Gnome Warlock
1945
01/24/2013 05:19 PMPosted by Virtutis
There is a lot of selfish behavior and hypocritical behavior coming from 10 man raiders in relation to these raid sizes, and they most certainly do not want things to be equal because equal means the 10 mans lose out on something.


Equality means neither format has extras that the other doesn't. What Blizzard is proposing isn't equality, it's punishing 10's for being more popular than the devteam's preferred raid format.

01/24/2013 05:19 PMPosted by Virtutis
Cross realm raiding will make no difference to 25 man raids in normal and heroic modes.


The success of things like openraid say otherwise, and since it's the prohibitive cost of transfers and the difficulty in finding a like minded raid pool on some servers removing that as a barrier to entry could do nothing but help 25m raiding.
90 Draenei Paladin
9375
I don't think people realize just how safe a 10 man guild is long term and how that affects recruitment for a 25 man guild. It's hard to trust the stability of a 25 man, Players and developers are all reassuring everyone that 25s are in fact dying. Now try to recruit.
The challenge isn't necessarily the content but rather the chore of keeping a 25 man team raiding and active.

With that said I'm still not in favor at all with introducing more loot drama in the form of "Thunderforged" gear.
90 Troll Shaman
6655
People if you are not in a 25 man right now and you want to be you have no one to blame but yourself. If people spent half the time actually helping to run a 25 man as they do complaining about how hard it is to run them than we would not have an issue.

Come to find out you want to run a guild you got to do some work. QQ and quite frankly !@#$% like a little girl all you want, but blizzard cannot do everything for you. You want to play 25 mans than play 25 mans, there are plenty out there and most are recruiting full time. But wait, applying to one might actually mean you have to fill out an app and god knows your too casual to do that.

Comes right down to it not everything can be solved ingame. This issue is not one easily solved ingame and has to be solved by the community however most the community is too lazy to step up into leadership roles. If you honestly think that 10mans don't have to deal with the same stuff out of game your wrong.

Every month I pay for-
Vent: $10.00
Enjin Hosting: $8.95
Server Transfer For Trials/Raiders Broken Headset: $30

You want to help 25 man survive? Than help your GM pay for some of the extra stuff, or maybe help him recruit. When it comes down to it blizzard can only do so much.
100 Draenei Shaman
19920

To get more people back into 25s isn't a logistics problem, no one will go from easymode 10s to 25s because they can get longer flasks or better feasts. There needs to be a clear advantage, an incentive, to be 25 which is the point of them doing this, don't think this rng gear will work but people need to get it out of their head that a 'logistic' solution will fix this at all.


Actually, flasks, feasts and repairs are exactly the type of logical problem that could be addressed.


Sure address it, but it won't be a factor in a raider choosing between going to 10 or 25man, it's more for officers/gm and the point of whatever change goes in is to make 25s more appealing.
93 Gnome Warlock
1945
01/24/2013 05:34 PMPosted by Primalshock
Sure address it, but it won't be a factor in a raider choosing between going to 10 or 25man, it's more for officers/gm and the point of whatever change goes in is to make 25s more appealing.


The goal shouldn't be to over incentivize an unpopular format to the point where the playerbase feels forced to run it just to justify their time investment. That's not fair to us, the players, and if nothing else having to overcompensate a format to that degree just to get some new players for it demonstrates just how "not fun" the format is considered by the community (Ghostcrawler's wishful thinking to the contrary).

The goal of anyone, regardless of the format they prefer, should be to take the things that are culminating in 25's not being fun (namely the recruitment and group building/maintaining elements) and create tools that mitigate those challenges as much as possible.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
Why is this not posted in D&R forums?
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
01/24/2013 05:48 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Sure address it, but it won't be a factor in a raider choosing between going to 10 or 25man, it's more for officers/gm and the point of whatever change goes in is to make 25s more appealing.


The goal shouldn't be to over incentivize an unpopular format to the point where the playerbase feels forced to run it just to justify their time investment. That's not fair to us, the players, and if nothing else having to overcompensate a format to that degree just to get some new players for it demonstrates just how "not fun" the format is considered by the community (Ghostcrawler's wishful thinking to the contrary).

The goal of anyone, regardless of the format they prefer, should be to take the things that are culminating in 25's not being fun (namely the recruitment and group building/maintaining elements) and create tools that mitigate those challenges as much as possible.


Yah, well said. Saving me from thinking tonight.
100 Draenei Shaman
19920
01/24/2013 05:48 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Sure address it, but it won't be a factor in a raider choosing between going to 10 or 25man, it's more for officers/gm and the point of whatever change goes in is to make 25s more appealing.


The goal shouldn't be to over incentivize an unpopular format to the point where the playerbase feels forced to run it just to justify their time investment. That's not fair to us, the players, and if nothing else having to overcompensate a format to that degree just to get some new players for it demonstrates just how "not fun" the format is considered by the community (Ghostcrawler's wishful thinking to the contrary).
The goal of anyone, regardless of the format they prefer, should be to take the things that are culminating in 25's not being fun (namely the recruitment and group building/maintaining elements) and create tools that mitigate those challenges as much as possible.


No it demonstrates just how much easier it is thus why most went to it when they didn't feel they had to do the harder difficulty for better gear. It's probably not fun cause you get in a bad group and it's harder so when you fail you go 'f this I'll just do 10s where I know I can kill it'. Here's a thought lets not trivialize this game even more and cater to the bads, kthxbai.
93 Gnome Warlock
1945
01/24/2013 06:01 PMPosted by Primalshock
Here's a thought lets not trivialize this game even more and cater to the bads, kthxbai.


So your suggestion to "not catering to bads" is to make 25's, which is the format where "the bads" expect to be carried to free loot just because they showed up, the de facto progression format?

Pure. Genius.
100 Draenei Shaman
19920
01/24/2013 06:06 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Here's a thought lets not trivialize this game even more and cater to the bads, kthxbai.


So your suggestion to "not catering to bads" is to make 25's, which is the format where "the bads" expect to be carried to free loot just because they showed up, the de facto progression format?

Pure. Genius.

Right, I'm so bad and get carried, so are all the guys in Vodka, Exodus, Supermassive, Midwinter...you know just go look at wowprogresses front page you'll see where I'm going with this.
90 Undead Priest
14805
01/24/2013 05:48 PMPosted by Bomdanil
The goal of anyone, regardless of the format they prefer, should be to take the things that are culminating in 25's not being fun (namely the recruitment and group building/maintaining elements) and create tools that mitigate those challenges as much as possible.


And the only help that can come to recruiting is by having a better choice than 10s. The problem being to have that, it has to be something over the top due to how much advantage 10s does have.

Over the past 2 weeks, my recruits have sent out over 110 in game mails and/or forum posts to potential app that have posted somewhere. We have received zero apps from it. Since we go to people's servers to talk to them we get insight on some of their reasoning on things. A vast majority of those stem from the fact that 25s are going downhill and they don't want to xfer just to have the guild die or not raid etc etc.

What can you offer these people to make them overlook that to join up with you? I can't think of anything that would reassure these kind of people. It would have to be something they'd be willing to risk $50+ for. For me, it would take a ton to make me risk $50+ for in game things.

So the question is what is worth risking $50+ over to people? It sure isn't a slightly higher chance at some slightly better loot maybe.
90 Human Warrior
12410
That's a massive ilvl increase on items but w/e
This topic is locked.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]