10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Orc Death Knight
0
01/24/2013 11:11 AMPosted by Shaniqua


If 30% of the 10man raid doesn't show up for unseen it's GG. If 30% of the 25man (7-8) it's also GG. Here's the catch though, in 10man If the unseen target is a mage/S.priest/Warlock then grats you have a get out of jail free card (lol yes, we have healed our warlock in 10man through dark bargin + unseen)


The argument was already BS. You have less raiders on 10m than 25m, which means you don't have to spread as far for wind step, so everyone should be in range and ready to stack on unseen. The OP's example is just complete bs.


<3
90 Night Elf Rogue
16410
So, four tiers pass by and this is what Blizz comes up with? They may as well keep things the same.

This isn't going to change the apparent decline in 25 man raiding. Players who are successful in 10 man raids aren't going to switch to 25 man raids for an increased chance at higher ilevel loot. It seems like Blizz forgot that in order to receive this "chance" at loot, the raid must first kill the boss that drops the loot. This is harder to do with a 25 man group than it is a 10 man group, for reasons beyond the logistics. At the end of the raid week, you're likely to see 10 man groups progress further than 25 man groups and therefore earn more loot.

I look at this from two different angles:

The Good - It's nice that Blizz is FINALLY addressing the problems with 25 mans to the point that they are suggesting a change. I seriously doubt that this is the move they need to make to turn 25 man raiding around, but merit should be given for.....trying.

The Bad - This won't change a thing in the raiding world. If anything, 25 man raiding guilds will continue to decline in numbers. It just isn't enough to entice players to move from their successful 10 man raids to 25 man raids for an increased chance at the same loot that drops in both formats.

There just isn't enough separation between the formats to interest people in 25 man raiding as opposed to 10 man. Not many players want to work harder to earn the same achievements, the same gear, the same titles, and the same mounts that is available in both formats. The past four tiers should have given Blizz a vivid picture of this by now.

There are a lot of different things that could be done to make 25 man more popular again, but throwing loot at a problem isn't going to fix it. I'm sorry, throwing a "higher chance at loot" isn't going to fix it. If Blizz really wants to see 25 mans restored to their glory days, they need more separation in the formats. Different titles for killing the end bosses in the two formats would be a start, but only a start. Even only allowing the items that drop in a 25 man raid to be eligible for upgrading would help. I would go so far to suggest that returning the lockouts to the Pre-Cata conditions would definitely see a resurgance in 25 mans, although that may have 10 man implications that could backfire. However, Blizz did have the most subscribers and 25 man guilds before they made those changes, so perhaps reverting to the Wrath conditions could be a good thing!

TL;DR - This idea won't change anything and 25 mans will continue to decline unless there is more separation between 10 and 25 man formats.
90 Troll Druid
11620
The goal shouldn't be to over incentivize an unpopular format to the point where the playerbase feels forced to run it just to justify their time investment. That's not fair to us, the players, and if nothing else having to overcompensate a format to that degree just to get some new players for it demonstrates just how "not fun" the format is considered by the community (Ghostcrawler's wishful thinking to the contrary).

What determines popularity? The hardcore playerbase, casuals? Maybe the amount of guilds on each side? The issue is not about being popular. The popularity of 10man raiding stems directly from the "Effort to Reward" ration which Blizzard is trying to address, and that we're currently trying to offer better solutions towards fixing. 10man raiding is unarguably easier to set up. That is an advantage of 10man raiding. 25man raiding gets one additional piece of loot, big deal--gear acquisition has never been the issue.

When was the last time another has seen a legitimate PUG for a 25man raid on current tier content? Not a GDKP run, not a 25man roster filling out the last 1-3 spots, but a legitimate 25-playre PUG. Since coming back to WoW in late WOTLK, I have seen 0 (zero) 25-player PUGs. I play on Illidan, the most populated server. There are no 25-player PUGs. My friends on other high-population servers do not see 25-player PUGs.

This is the major advantage of 10man raiding and PUG'ing. It's just easier to set up. Players will always take the easiest route. If you want to give incentives for choosing the harder route, they must be worth the effort. Gear helps, but I'm not advocated for better (higher ilvl) loot (I don't like the Thunderforged items idea, it doesn't add anything to the betterment of raiding, nor the incentive we're looking for in a 25man setting).

While not as major, the solution will involve changes/additions similar in scope to the normalization of gear between 25man and 10man raiding in terms of drawing all players into a 25man setting. This does not imply you'll be forced into 25man raids. If you think that, you're not the person to be dating nor questioning changes.
Edited by Cyous on 1/24/2013 6:26 PM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
Sure address it, but it won't be a factor in a raider choosing between going to 10 or 25man, it's more for officers/gm and the point of whatever change goes in is to make 25s more appealing.


The goal shouldn't be to over incentivize an unpopular format to the point where the playerbase feels forced to run it just to justify their time investment. That's not fair to us, the players, and if nothing else having to overcompensate a format to that degree just to get some new players for it demonstrates just how "not fun" the format is considered by the community (Ghostcrawler's wishful thinking to the contrary).

The goal of anyone, regardless of the format they prefer, should be to take the things that are culminating in 25's not being fun (namely the recruitment and group building/maintaining elements) and create tools that mitigate those challenges as much as possible.


The goal of the devs is NOT to listen to the players it's to make the game they want. If they feel that 25's are important then they'll do anything to keep the format alive. If they got rid of 10's next x-pac and went back to TBC style end game Raiding there would be weeks of QQ and some sub losses but in the end most players would adjust and go along with the changes.

Trying to make 10's work without totally homogenizing class roles is impossible and it's hurting the game. We'll never see encounters like Razzuvious or High King again because they required Class specific abilities and that's unfair to the poor 10 man Groups and flies in the face of GC's ridonculous "bring the player not the class" meme.

01/24/2013 04:57 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Raiding populations on many servers can't support 25m progression minded runs anymore because they lack the playerpool or skill base to make it work.


Nonsense. It's Only because every jacktard wants to run their own little Guild. There are too many pretend Kings and not enough Pawns basically.

If the TBC model was still in play and the only way to see the whole end game story was to be in a Guild with strong leadership and good Raid Leaders we'd have far fewer fail Guilds and the servers (even the low pop ones) could easily have multiple 25's going. Even Low Pop servers in Vanilla and TBC had multiple progression Guilds running.
Edited by Indyana on 1/24/2013 6:25 PM PST
90 Gnome Warlock
1565
01/24/2013 06:08 PMPosted by Primalshock
you know just go look at wowprogresses front page you'll see where I'm going with this.


I never said that there weren't skilled 25m groups, I just stated that 25's have an easier time carrying dead weight than 10's do which is why they were the preferred pug format in Wrath despite being the "harder" difficulty.

01/24/2013 06:08 PMPosted by Telepathy
What can you offer these people to make them overlook that to join up with you?


Free server transfers and/or cross-realm raiding of current content when running 25s.

I've already acknowledged that the cost of server/faction transfers is part of the barrier to entry for 25's and that I think that fixing that is going to be critical to the long term sustainability of 25's outside of LFR.
90 Troll Druid
11620
01/24/2013 06:25 PMPosted by Bomdanil
I never said that there weren't skilled 25m groups, I just stated that 25's have an easier time carrying dead weight than 10's do which is why they were the preferred pug format in Wrath despite being the "harder" difficulty.

Oh look at this deadweight player: Legolasxx (fictional character, real experiences)

He just wiped the raid believe he attack the boss with Shield of Darkness active or pinned the entire melee pile.
Oh look, he's just eating pools and attacking the wrong target on Amber-Shaper as the construct.
Oh look he just triggered Garalon's crush, two back-to-back is a wipe.
Oh look, he triggered Wind Bomb.
Oh look he broke the CC on the adds on Wind Lord.
Oh look, he was standing in melee on Blade Lord and now we all have Windstep.
On look, he stood in the wrong bubble and we lost our melee to Force and Verver.
Oh look, he kited a Windblade directly into our Amber Trap on Empress. Oh look, he didn't move out for Visions of Demise and detonated on the raid. On look, he didn't move for Heart of Fear and we lost our healer.
Oh look, we didn't soak Annihilation on Elegon, insta-wipe. Oh look, he forgot to DPS his spark on Elegon--cannot meet the enrage timer, wipe.
Oh look, we didn't soak the Sparks on Emperor, there goes half our ranged pile.
Oh look, he didn't move out fast enough on Feng and nuked the melee pile with Resonance.
Oh look, he didn't move out of the pile on Protectors and detonated on the raid.
Oh look, he was standing too close to melee and Tsulong dropped Nightmares on the melee pile--there goes half the melee.
Oh look, he died on the outer platform for Sha of Fear, the tank didn't get back in time, and Breath of Fear killed the primary platform, wipe.

Oh look, personal responsibilty has major consequences in 25man raids. Who woulda' thunk'?
Edited by Cyous on 1/24/2013 6:49 PM PST
90 Gnome Warlock
1565
01/24/2013 06:22 PMPosted by Indyana
Even Low Pop servers in Vanilla and TBC had multiple progression Guilds running.


Not if you consider progression to be running current tier content. I know for a fact that Scarlet Crusade only had 1 guild on Alliance that was actively killing bosses in SWP before it was nerfed into the ground, and maybe had 3 guilds working Hyjal and BT at the same time frame.

If the TBC model was still in play and the only way to see the whole end game story was to guild hop the instant you had any semblance of gear.


Fixed for reality, and a large part of what lead to Blizzard creating the 10/25 split in the first place.
90 Gnome Warlock
1565
01/24/2013 06:38 PMPosted by Cyous
Oh look, personal responsibilty has major consequences in 25man raids.


Oh look, someone thinks I was talking about heroic modes when it's pretty obvious that I'm talking about normals.
90 Troll Druid
11620
01/24/2013 06:42 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Oh look, someone thinks I was talking about heroic modes when it's pretty obvious that I'm talking about normals.

Hence the majority of those mechanics are both Normal and Heroic, right?

Deadweight is bad for both 10man and 25man. 25man simply has more people who can screw up.
Edited by Cyous on 1/24/2013 6:45 PM PST
90 Draenei Shaman
19435
01/24/2013 06:42 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Oh look, personal responsibilty has major consequences in 25man raids.


Oh look, someone thinks I was talking about heroic modes when it's pretty obvious that I'm talking about normals.


Normals matter? Since when?
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
Even Low Pop servers in Vanilla and TBC had multiple progression Guilds running.


Not if you consider progression to be running current tier content. I know for a fact that Scarlet Crusade only had 1 guild on Alliance that was actively killing bosses in SWP before it was nerfed into the ground, and maybe had 3 guilds working Hyjal and BT at the same time frame.


The idea that only the current Tier is valid is one of the things that has gone wrong with this game since TBC. You just described 4 guilds doing the hardest 25 man content on a Low Pop server. You validated my position so thanks.

If the TBC model was still in play and the only way to see the whole end game story was to guild hop the instant you had any semblance of gear.


Fixed for reality, and a large part of what lead to Blizzard creating the 10/25 split in the first place.


The 10/25 split was created because of the non-problem of Guild hopping? News to me. I thought it was because Blizzard was too cheap to make real 10 man Raids like Kara and ZA and decided to double down on the 25 man Raid content. Silly me.

Guild hopping was never an issue for anyone other than the leaders of the Guilds stuck at some point in progression. A Guild stuck in Gruul's that was losing players to Guilds already in SSC was just a Gruul level Guild with Gruul level leadership. Guilds only progressed as far as the skill of their leadership allowed. I never saw anything wrong with Darwinism applied to game dynamics.
Edited by Indyana on 1/24/2013 7:12 PM PST
90 Gnome Warlock
1565
01/24/2013 07:11 PMPosted by Indyana
You just described 4 guilds doing the hardest 25 man content on a Low Pop server. You validated my position so thanks.


My realm is medium-high population, not low, and stating that there were next to no raiding guilds on my server despite its high population comparative to many other realms in no way validates your claim that there were "multiple" guilds on low pop realms running progression content when it was current/pre-nerfed.

01/24/2013 07:01 PMPosted by Primalshock
Normals matter? Since when?


For the progression race? They don't. For people that want to raid as a whole? They're pretty significant for the vast majority of people that actually bother with it.
80 Goblin Hunter
10495
Stop the QQ

Bring back big raids (25m at least, of course it deserves extra-loot ; option to 40 with extra-extra loot);

Ban all add-ons and get rid of heroic modes;

Bring back cool stuff from the past, like Baron 45 min run, or DM Tribute;

Tune dungeons as it was before, like SM at lvl 40 or the old school Scholo, UBRS;

Keep LFR as the way it is cause its great for ppl to see content;

Sure the epic feeling will be back.

And please, dont defend addons. The game has everything these days, like agro tables, raid Ui customization, dungeon journal, even in game voice chat. Can keep cosmetics add-ons if you wish, but pls, an automatic stuff telling you who is healing more inside a bg or when to jump out of the fire...really??? Just go play clean and pay attention whats happening, Im sure you can shot the shaman by finding him with your own two eyes.

Heroic raid mechanics are ridiculous these days cause add-onn 1 does "x", add-onn 2 does 'y" , blizz tune more and more complicated mechanics, its just like a snowball down the mountain or a spiral up.
90 Pandaren Monk
0
Crithto,

I'm a senior officer and recruiter (and raid leader) of a guild on undermine which has historically been 25 man since BC and we've finally given up on it this tier; we're down to 1 10 man. Our guild leader retired at the end of cata essentially because he was so burnt out trying to recruit and manage a 25 man raid group. We're a semi-casual guild that has made it through all normal content and about half of heroic content each tier since hard modes were introduced in Ulduar.

Although I appreciate that blizzard is taking steps to deal with 25 man raiding essentially going extinct at the sub-hardcore level I don't think this change is going to fix anything. I recruit people and and have being involved in managing guilds for 5 years now. From my experience there are a few prime reasons for the decline in 25 man:

1) Mistakes are amplified so 25 is inherently slower to progress in. Let's not talk about player skill, let's just say on average 1 player afks once a week for 5 minutes. that's it. In a 9 hour raid schedule, that's 50 minutes of the raid standing around but in 25s that's 125 minutes of standing around. Take another example, let's say each raider makes 1 raid-wiping mistake in a week. In 10 man that's 10 wipes to player error, in 25 man, that's 25 wipes. These are relative examples that are compounded by lower player skill (not heroic progression 25s). This basically means that 25s by nature are slower to run with, have mroe wipes and are generally less appealing.

2) The players have no reason to bother with 25 man guilds. 10 mans are so dramatically easier to put together that unless players are forced into 25 man guilds (like WoTLK and earlier) they simply won't do it. No level of incentive is going to change this as long as you can accomplish the same thing in the end by running 10s.

3) Recruiting is very difficult. Blizzard makes changes to 10/25 incentives but don't seem to focus on given us leaders the tools to put these larger raids together. The guild finder which was added in 4.1 I believe was a good start but like the raid finder before it was so unrefined that it's a completely useless tool. There's no way to even filter out the 1 man guilds people are using on bank alts. Anyone looking at the guild finder just sees spam of crap/low level guilds in the hundreds. A little bit of attention to the guild finder could go a long way if it was made an actually viable tool. To do this it wold need to allow guilds to post a raid schedule (not weekday/weekend), it would need to be able to select specific classes that we are recruiting and most importantly, it should allow us to browse players like players browse guilds and send in game mail to potential candidates (which should be able to be easily turned off by players). Players should also be able to have a "profile" and be able to select "looking for guild" (even if they are guilded) to allow potential guiilds to contact them. Look at the specifics in the guild recruitment forums of what people are posting and you'll get a good idea of the essential information needed to for guilds to find players and players to find guilds.

I hope 25s come back to life and I really hope trying to build a 25 man semi-casual raid is a possibility in the future; on my server we were the last and we finally were forced to run 10s. I'm personally close to giving up even trying for 25 because it's just so hard now and the other officers/GM have also given up. You need radical, not mild changes to bring 25s back and I don't see it happening by tweaking loot.

Pro.
Edited by Proletari on 1/24/2013 7:41 PM PST
90 Orc Shaman
13750
01/24/2013 06:42 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Oh look, personal responsibilty has major consequences in 25man raids.


Oh look, someone thinks I was talking about heroic modes when it's pretty obvious that I'm talking about normals.


Ok, but then those mechanics don't matter on 10s either, so there goes your argument.
90 Pandaren Shaman
13380
01/23/2013 09:07 AMPosted by Daerioz
This will not help bring back 25s.


25s need to die off like 40s did.

The more crap they try to balance encounters around, the less time they have to actually put out encounters. I'd rather have them put out three new zones than only one and have to balance it around five different raid size/difficulties.
90 Pandaren Shaman
3290
Make gear drop a lot more often. I don't raid for gold.

....or at the very least, increase the gold from 28 to 300+, the same amount of gold I could have earned if I were farming and doing dailies instead of raiding.
Edited by Shangjiao on 1/24/2013 8:03 PM PST
90 Orc Shaman
13750
01/24/2013 08:01 PMPosted by Sakiri
This will not help bring back 25s.


25s need to die off like 40s did.

The more crap they try to balance encounters around, the less time they have to actually put out encounters. I'd rather have them put out three new zones than only one and have to balance it around five different raid size/difficulties.


That argument works just as well to kill off 10s.
90 Tauren Druid
19270
01/24/2013 08:01 PMPosted by Sakiri
The more crap they try to balance encounters around, the less time they have to actually put out encounters. I'd rather have them put out three new zones than only one and have to balance it around five different raid size/difficulties.


The less players they have to balance round means less interesting encounters, less interesting mechanics and more generic tank and spanks disguised with a random gimmick.
90 Pandaren Shaman
13380
Stop the QQ

Bring back big raids (25m at least, of course it deserves extra-loot ; option to 40 with extra-extra loot);


No. We don't need the logistics nightmare of 40 man and 25 already gets more loot.


Ban all add-ons and get rid of heroic modes;


Go away. Addons are what distinguishes this game from the others, and you don't remove a vital part of the game for many people because your raid uses DBM as a crutch. Heroic modes are your challenge. Normal too easy? Do heroic.


Bring back cool stuff from the past, like Baron 45 min run, or DM Tribute;


That wasn't "cool". It was a pain in the rear. And you have your 45 minute Baron run in the form of "challenge mode dungeons".


Tune dungeons as it was before, like SM at lvl 40 or the old school Scholo, UBRS;


Even before you could faceroll them if you ran them the way my realm did: with raids. Strat, Scholo, BRS, BRD... we took 20-30 people in there on a regular basis. Want quests done? Drop raid, get your quest item, get invited back.


Sure the epic feeling will be back.

And please, dont defend addons. The game has everything these days, like agro tables, raid Ui customization, dungeon journal, even in game voice chat. Can keep cosmetics add-ons if you wish, but pls, an automatic stuff telling you who is healing more inside a bg or when to jump out of the fire...really??? Just go play clean and pay attention whats happening, Im sure you can shot the shaman by finding him with your own two eyes.

Heroic raid mechanics are ridiculous these days cause add-onn 1 does "x", add-onn 2 does 'y" , blizz tune more and more complicated mechanics, its just like a snowball down the mountain or a spiral up.


Addons only make that information available in a different format. The default UI also looks like a small piece of Hell. If your raid is crippled when DBM doesn't work, that's your own raid's fault and not the addon.

In short: go away.
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