10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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100 Draenei Shaman
16525
01/24/2013 08:06 PMPosted by Waraila
The less players they have to balance round means less interesting encounters, less interesting mechanics and more generic tank and spanks disguised with a random gimmick.


Obviously that's what some of the ingenious folks around here want.

You know, the ones asking for Vanilla to come back? Where just about every raid boss was a tank and spank with a gimmick tossed in here and there.

Vael was a guild killer. You know what Vael also was? A tank and spank with a tank swap and VERY tight "enrage timer". It didn't take skill. It took not being an idiot with a lot of gear.

The mechanics are the same in both raid sizes. You want to know why 10 is easier? Room isn't any bigger or smaller than with 25. Don't need to stand in crap while not stacking on each other? More room to move. That has NOTHING to do with making creative encounters.

25 man raids are "more difficult" than 10 man raids because of logistics. I come from days where you had to spread the raid way the hell out but if you went 2 inches to your left, you were too close to the healer and killed them. That's not "difficult", that's not "challenging", it's a logistics fail. Stop making encounters based on having X players do Y or not stand in Z or spread way the hell out and suddenly 25 doesn't suck quite so bad.
100 Draenei Shaman
16525
01/24/2013 08:03 PMPosted by Hyjinx


25s need to die off like 40s did.

The more crap they try to balance encounters around, the less time they have to actually put out encounters. I'd rather have them put out three new zones than only one and have to balance it around five different raid size/difficulties.


That argument works just as well to kill off 10s.


They aren't going to do it.

if the majority are already doing 10s, then killing off the minority makes more sense.

You're not going to suddenly get all those 10 man guilds running 25s. They'll just stop raiding entirely.
90 Worgen Hunter
13075
a vital part of the game for many people


emphasis on "many"

In short: go away


NO U
90 Undead Priest
14805
They aren't going to do it.

if the majority are already doing 10s, then killing off the minority makes more sense.

You're not going to suddenly get all those 10 man guilds running 25s. They'll just stop raiding entirely.


The majority did 25mans in Wrath and they still elected to kill it off for the minority. 25man guilds flocked to 10s because they were easier. People will flood to any place they get what they want easiest. If 25s if the only way, people will be there tomorrow.
90 Troll Druid
11620
They aren't going to do it.

if the majority are already doing 10s, then killing off the minority makes more sense.

You're not going to suddenly get all those 10 man guilds running 25s. They'll just stop raiding entirely.

If you remove 10man, then 25man will be the majority. /10man syndrome
100 Human Paladin
17285
They aren't going to do it.

if the majority are already doing 10s, then killing off the minority makes more sense.

You're not going to suddenly get all those 10 man guilds running 25s. They'll just stop raiding entirely.


The majority did 25mans in Wrath and they still elected to kill it off for the minority. 25man guilds flocked to 10s because they were easier. People will flood to any place they get what they want easiest. If 25s if the only way, people will be there tomorrow.


No, I like raiding 10s knowing the people I raid with and having a close group appeals to me. I also like having a bigger impact and accounting for 10% of the raid as opposed to 4% in 25s. And no if Blizzard made 25s the way to go, trust me many people would in fact just quit, I'd probably be among them.

The community has changed dramatically over time, there was a time when we raided with 40 others. Wouldn't go back to that either, at some point Blizzard will likely kill 25 man raiding by either bringing everything to a 15 man format or just having 10s.
Edited by Exxs on 1/24/2013 9:01 PM PST
100 Tauren Shaman
13310
Adding EVEN MORE item levels to a tier? This is getting moronic.

Does Blizzard not remember nerfing 10/25 timers and giving the reasoning behind doing so because it made it too easy for people to gear up and because you wanted to -and here's the important part - STREAMLINE gearing paths? At this current rate, a new tier is going to end up being 100 item levels of "epic" items spread out. Then add in upgrades which are supposedly coming back in 5.3, et cetera.

This plan is utterly contrary to Blizzard's previous position of streamlining itemization. You're just making more work for your developers who are already overtaxed with having to design 5 separate versions of each encounter (LFR, 10N, 10H, 25N, 25H) and inflating gear to a ridiculous just to deploy a band aid that won't address the real issue.

Delink the 10/25 man timers and you'll probably see a bump up in 25 man raiding again, no super inflation of gear levels required. No "special" gear titles needed.

Despite this band aid, based on Blizzard's past and the aging nature of the game, I still see a future, probably next expansion, where LFR is the standard and only two paths of LFR will exist: LFR Normal (like LFR currently) and LFR Heroic (for premade guild groups). Then 25 man raids will be the only raids in town anyway.
Edited by Nydidolyn on 1/24/2013 9:04 PM PST
100 Human Paladin
17285
01/24/2013 09:00 PMPosted by Nydidolyn
I still see a future, probably next expansion, where LFR is the standard and only two paths of LFR will exist: LFR Normal (like LFR currently) and LFR Heroic (for premade guild groups). Then 25 man raids will be the only raids in town anyway.


If LFR was standard and 10s were not available I don't know a single raider who would remain subbed. Not everyone likes 25s and among the people I play with nobody actually enjoys LFR.
4 Undead Hunter
0
According to the PVP side, upgrades to gear via VP are going to the wayside. i could have sworn that i saw a thread about them being removed from PVE as well. But even if they were not removed, If you are a heroic raider lucky enough to clear the content let alone aquire a peice of TF gear then by all means. kudos, how ever realisticly the chances of them clearing and aquiring a full set of heroic TF gear just by drop rate is very highly unlikley, and borderline impossible, call it 5.2 is live for 30 weeks, it takes them 4 weeks to full clear regular (because of wing releases) another 4 weeks to get everyone fully ready for full heroic runs and not just a boss here and there. that leaves 22 weeks for heroics, at 12 bosses 24 peices of loot or a total of 528 loot drops, this is if they manage to full clear heroic on the first week which is highly unlikley if 10 man drops TF at 1% that means in 22 weeks they will only see 5.28 peices of TF gear. call it 2% thats basiclly 11 peices. One would probably have better luck winning the lotto 3 times back 2 back than having every peice drop for their spec and class. We have all gone entire patches and not gotten that one peice we were chasing for weeks on end and when it did you were not in the group. So in short if a heroic raider is lucky enough to get a a peice of the preverbial Phat Loot, by all means let them upgrade it, because we know that if they are clearing current heroic content, they will do it again so the upgraded TF heroic peice will be surpassed by defult heroic gear from the next patch.
90 Orc Shaman
13550
No, I like raiding 10s knowing the people I raid with and having a close group appeals to me. I also like having a bigger impact and accounting for 10% of the raid as opposed to 4% in 25s. And no if Blizzard made 25s the way to go, trust me many people would in fact just quit, I'd probably be among them.


The idea that you can't have a big impact as a 25m raider is laughable.

Anyway, the goal isn't to kill off 10s. It's to stabilize and resuscitate 25s.



That argument works just as well to kill off 10s.


They aren't going to do it.

if the majority are already doing 10s, then killing off the minority makes more sense.

You're not going to suddenly get all those 10 man guilds running 25s. They'll just stop raiding entirely.


10s only got to be the majority because they killed off the majority once already. By that logic they should have scrapped 10s entering Cataclysm, and then where would you be?

Besides, I'm not saying they should kill off 10s. I'm pointing out that any argument so easily reversible doesn't have a whole hell of a lot of merit.

Also, judging by the lower number of raiders overall, I'd say that you won't get the guys who want to do 25s to do 10s, either. They have or will stop raiding entirely. I'm in that group, as well. 25s goes away, so do I.
90 Worgen Druid
17805
01/24/2013 05:19 PMPosted by Virtutis
No, people just want it to be even. I don't see how that is hypocritical of anyone at all.


That's not it at all. Over an over in this thread are people proclaiming that the only solution to this issue is one that does not affect 10 man in the slightest because someone that's a big no no. There is a poster, two posts above your that literally just finished saying that. There is a lot of selfish behavior and hypocritical behavior coming from 10 man raiders in relation to these raid sizes, and they most certainly do not want things to be equal because equal means the 10 mans lose out on something.

The italicized part: what?
4 Undead Hunter
0
01/24/2013 08:11 PMPosted by Sakiri
The less players they have to balance round means less interesting encounters, less interesting mechanics and more generic tank and spanks disguised with a random gimmick.


Obviously that's what some of the ingenious folks around here want.

You know, the ones asking for Vanilla to come back? Where just about every raid boss was a tank and spank with a gimmick tossed in here and there.

Vael was a guild killer. You know what Vael also was? A tank and spank with a tank swap and VERY tight "enrage timer". It didn't take skill. It took not being an idiot with a lot of gear.

The mechanics are the same in both raid sizes. You want to know why 10 is easier? Room isn't any bigger or smaller than with 25. Don't need to stand in crap while not stacking on each other? More room to move. That has NOTHING to do with making creative encounters.

25 man raids are "more difficult" than 10 man raids because of logistics. I come from days where you had to spread the raid way the hell out but if you went 2 inches to your left, you were too close to the healer and killed them. That's not "difficult", that's not "challenging", it's a logistics fail. Stop making encounters based on having X players do Y or not stand in Z or spread way the hell out and suddenly 25 doesn't suck quite so bad.


This all went down hill because of the Wrath babies, Uldar was a guild killer 10 and 25. they rebounded with TOC (worst raid in history IMO) no trash, some mechanics, minimal logistics. history has shown 25 man raids have been easier only because there is more room for error, you can have 1-3 people dead 80% of the fight and still finsih long before an enrage timer, more people to pick up slack of the lesser geared players, you could take in a couple peeps clad in greens that hit level cap that day and carry them (some people even charged a fee). No one gave a dam about Gear Score until that stupid add on came out, then Blizz adopted it and incorperated it into the system and now thats all anyone cares about is i have such and such item level. My guild PUG'ed a 487 rediculous huntard last night with all stam gems and enchants (his reasoning was for brawlers guild, but who really knows) he got to that item level by upgrading crafted gear and heroic dungeon gear. did a whopping 22k dps on a single target raid boss. so in reality his skill level was equilivent to that of a target dummy. take the item level off, disable add on gear score crap, make all loots white no more greens blues purples or oranges, color doesnt matter anymore its all charity anyway.

If 10's and 25's no longer shared the same lock out and still dropped the same gear we would have nothing but a bunch of over rated over geared tanks and healers, that still only cared about there "gear score" because by default the less people you have to roll against the better your odds of winning are and if your running all the same class for all the spots (2 plate tanks) and (6 cloth healers) well then you wont progress anyway cause your guild will break up from everypone fighting over loot and the ones that do get the gear will jump ship to some other guild that is progressing further anyway.

If the older systems of "epic loot" came back then pobably less than 5% of the population will be truly "epic" geared. good old AQ40, not only did you have to farm the rep in the raid to even be able to purchase the loot you had to farm various components in the raid to buy it. lots and lots and lots of many many weeks for 1 peice of truly epic at the time rep loot. now you hit max level and it is all but mailed to you as soon as you ding.
90 Draenei Shaman
11125
So once again I brought up 25 man raiding with my guild, along with recruiting and guild merger ideas

It was met with "screw that". I talked about the thunderforged incentive, and people said "Not worth it."

My raid leader cited examples

Getting 25 people to stack
Getting 25 people to avoid wind bomb
25 people not listening instead of 10
25 people making mistakes
Doesn't want the recruiting and turnover issues

Now since every 25 man guild on Kul Tiras has died to fallout (once upon a time, there was 6-7) and my reluctance to leave kul tiras after some... 7? years, I guess raiding will never be as fun as it was in BC and WotlK. Those days are over

Every expansion they make radical drastic changes. This game has become completely different. All of the awesome great things out of WotlK have been scrapped There are two things I don't enjoy doing in this game: 10 mans and dallies. MoP is the mother of all dailies and 25 mans are a dwindling memory. We'll never see heroic dungeons like Halls of Reflection again. But hey, if your making more money, I understand these decisions from a business perspective.

But frankly, D3 has been more fun lately, and that game is a horrid abomination of a ruined sequel that could have been one of the best games ever.
Edited by Vodkaparty on 1/24/2013 9:58 PM PST
90 Undead Priest
14805


The majority did 25mans in Wrath and they still elected to kill it off for the minority. 25man guilds flocked to 10s because they were easier. People will flood to any place they get what they want easiest. If 25s if the only way, people will be there tomorrow.


No, I like raiding 10s knowing the people I raid with and having a close group appeals to me. I also like having a bigger impact and accounting for 10% of the raid as opposed to 4% in 25s. And no if Blizzard made 25s the way to go, trust me many people would in fact just quit, I'd probably be among them.


So this is different from now how? People quit in droves over the course of raids being the same.

I've said it for years that Blizzard is going to have to pick a single size to go with. They will have to cut off their leg to save their body so to speak. Some larger portion of players will have to quit to save this game's raiding. It's in Blizzards court who quits but in the end some group will. It's looking like its been 25s for a while and we were just waiting for the official word on it but they keep trying to save us. We shall see!
10 Human Rogue
11720
The solution to the 10s vs. 25s isn't in giving 25s a statistical advantage, or in giving them the slight possibility of a statistical advantage. The solution to incentivizing 25s is in providing a reward that makes the additional logistics worthwhile without forcing 10s players to feel like second-class citizens.

What we need is a Raiding Competition.

1. Points are scored based on the number of boss kills in raids during a raid lockout. For current-tier content, the number of points scored by killing bosses in 25-man raids is worth 2x the number of points scored by 10-man raids. The number of points scored by killing bosses in heroic difficulty is worth 2x the points number of points scored by normal difficulty. (Questions: What are non-current raids in the current expansion worth? Are raids from previous expansions worth points in this competition? What about players in cross-server raids/LFR?)

2. The number of points needed to win is determined dynamically by Blizzard at the beginning of each raid lockout, and is based on the number of raiding groups that made boss-kill attempts in previous lockouts ON THAT SERVER. This is to scale the difficulty appropriately for high-pop vs. low-pop servers.

3. Servers that hit their Competition Target for the lockout unlock a 20% bonus in Valor/Justice point rewards and a 10% Experience bonus for ALL CHARACTERS ON THE SERVER.

The intent is that raid groups will want to gravitate towards 25s because it more readily benefits the server community, and accomplishing the Competition Target will help in gearing alts by increasing currency incomes. But groups that can more successfully raid 10s will be able to acomplish a similar result within the scope of the competition.

What should the reward be for the best performing server in the battlegroup? Or in the region?
90 Troll Druid
11620
01/24/2013 10:08 PMPosted by Secondstory
What we need is a Raiding Competition.

In PVP, you compete against others.

In PVE, you compete against yourself.
90 Pandaren Monk
0
01/24/2013 07:11 PMPosted by Indyana
The idea that only the current Tier is valid is one of the things that has gone wrong with this game since TBC.


This is such an important point and the WoW devs have taken a huge step froward in going back towards a linear progression. At the end of BC there were happy "progression" guilds just taking on scc for the first time. At the end of Cata there wasn't a "guild" that had 10 bodies in it that couldn't do heroic DS.

The harder the game gets and the more players are forced to join good guilds with good leadership the more fun it is. Let's be honest, The WoW player base isn't very different from CoD; if you give everyone an easy option to see the end game, they'll take it. Even the good 25 man guilds had people in them in BC and WoTLK that would never have raided 25s if 10s were an option because 10s are always easier and also makes people feel "more important".
100 Human Priest
19910
The only thing that will save 25 man raiding is free server xfers. The main problem is recruitment and management. The problem is not related to game mechanics or gameplay. Its an out of game management problem. The reason all the top guilds are 25 man in the US is because they have an army of people managing, recruiting in a massive outside of raids effort.

If anything this changes just makes 25 man HARDMODE guilds that much easier then 10 man. After killing spirit kings heroic like 15 times, our tank is still wearing a blue shield. At the top 50 US level, the advantage gained from being in a 25 man is ridiculous. For the casual 25s, this is false hope because is doesn't fix the real problem.

A few pieces of gear wont make people better players or fix turnover issues.

TL DR: blizzard just broke top 50 US progression race giving a HUGE edge to 25s, and didint really fix ANYTHING for the casual 25 man guilds who are still struggling on normal modes. I believe free server xfers is the way to go! Either that or server merges...
Edited by Holyavenger on 1/24/2013 11:05 PM PST
90 Pandaren Hunter
14880
  • Raiding in 10- and 25-player dungeons already provides the same item level rewards for everyone. Engaging in the logistics of the larger raid format, however, we feel should be rewarded and the slight increase in chances to receive a Thunderforged item in 25-player is our effort to strike a better balance between both raid sizes.


  • Let's be real here, very few people are geared with BiS items, so saying "same item level rewards" is a little disingenuous if you don't take into account drop rates. Currently, your average 25m raider is already more geared than your average 10m raider with equal progression due to higher token/player (3/25 vs 1/10) and non-token drop/player (6/25 vs 2/10), not to mention cases of loot gaps in drops being much more likely in 10m.

    Actual translation: We feel that the average item level advantage of 25m over 10m isn't enough compensation for 25m raiders. So we're gonna bump this difference even further, but in a non-obvious way, by introducing another tier of item level and magic drop numbers for these items. Please consider this benefit the next time you go guild shopping, because not only will you be more decked in 25m, the fights are even easier than before!

    As for actually addressing the issue of the harder LOGISTICS of organizing raids, this might indirectly solve that by allowing 25m groups to reasonably raid with a few missing raiders each time and still be ok.

    Actual solution: Move the designer folks who are adamant about 25m to another project/mmo. Make uniform 15m raids, and show us the benefit of not having twice the encounter turning by improving the quantity/quality of raids.
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