10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
16020
They never should have made 10 mans get the same loot at 25 mans. It was a stupid idea then, and it was stupid on the Cata PTR, it was stupid through Cata, It wiped out ALL incentive to do 25 mans.

This is a good change, but make 25 mans drop better gear across the board again.


So tell me, if 25 mans need extra incentive to be done, then why do they need to exist? Shouldn't "TEH EPIC BATTELZ WITH 24 OF YOUR FRIENDS" be alluring? Shouldn't the extra loot be alluring? Shouldn't the prestige that people claim comes with 25 man be alluring? It obviously isn't or else 25 mans wouldn't be in trouble.

People need no incentive to do 10 mans. Even before the gear equalization, people were preferring 10 mans and the cries of "25 mans are dying!" despite 10 mans dropping inferior gear during wrath. So the "gear equalization ruined everything" is pure bunk. Since the decline was happening way before it happened.

But this is going to happen, and no amount of objection is going to stop blizzard. Why? Because its what THEY want, 25 mans are what THEY like. So here is a prediction. The loot changes will go in. The 25 raiders will cheer and say "25 man raiding is saved". Some people will be drawn in doing 25 man raiding. I may even go so far as to say 25 man raiding will go up slightly faster than its decline.....for a while. But even if it does go up, which I doubt, it will go back down and 25 mans will go back to their decline and both blizzard and the 25 mans raiders will be scratching their heads wondering why oh why didn't it work?

Because 25 mans are more trouble than they are worth in MANY aspects, and it has nothing to do with loot.


Why did 10 mans need the incentive of having the same loot as 25 mans back in Cata? Blizzard should have just eliminated 10 mans back then and then this problem would have never existed.

People didnt prefer 10 mans back in wrath. Stop making up lies to try and support 10 mans.

How many 25 man raider have you seen say they think this idea will work? It wont work. The reason why is thfe elite 25 man guilds will not be effected but now with the added upgrade its just going to make more 25 man guilds disband quicker.

The main reason 25 mans are dying is because in th eearly going they gear up quicker than 10 mans because its most likely the loot can be used and most of the time it will go to whos more liked in the guild or the better players. Now with the thunder version it will even make a bigger difference between the players and that means 10 of them will get better gear faster and then when they hit a boss that the enrage timer is getting them they will look at the lower players (that didnt get the gear) and say they are not pulling their wait and be like you guys suck, were going 10 mans and then when they do they kill more bosses because 10 mans are basically easier than 25 mans.

Thats the problem 10 players can gear up faster in 25 mans and then drop down to 10 mans to kill bosses easier. That kills 25 mans and just makes the 10 think they are better than they are.

Right now its hard to get into a 25 man because there are not many of them. You get in one and then they dont have enough people and they go back to 10 mans because they dont want to deal with waiting. So you try again and the same thing happens.

This change they are doing will not help 25 mans at all. It will though give the 10 mans more ammo to get content nerfed though. Those top 100 guilds since vanilla are killing bosses faster than 10 man guilds are, thats unfair 10 mans are too hard. NERF NERF 10 mans NOW. Thats the only thing this change will do.
11 Human Warrior
0


So tell me, if 25 mans need extra incentive to be done, then why do they need to exist? Shouldn't "TEH EPIC BATTELZ WITH 24 OF YOUR FRIENDS" be alluring? Shouldn't the extra loot be alluring? Shouldn't the prestige that people claim comes with 25 man be alluring? It obviously isn't or else 25 mans wouldn't be in trouble.

People need no incentive to do 10 mans. Even before the gear equalization, people were preferring 10 mans and the cries of "25 mans are dying!" despite 10 mans dropping inferior gear during wrath. So the "gear equalization ruined everything" is pure bunk. Since the decline was happening way before it happened.

But this is going to happen, and no amount of objection is going to stop blizzard. Why? Because its what THEY want, 25 mans are what THEY like. So here is a prediction. The loot changes will go in. The 25 raiders will cheer and say "25 man raiding is saved". Some people will be drawn in doing 25 man raiding. I may even go so far as to say 25 man raiding will go up slightly faster than its decline.....for a while. But even if it does go up, which I doubt, it will go back down and 25 mans will go back to their decline and both blizzard and the 25 mans raiders will be scratching their heads wondering why oh why didn't it work?

Because 25 mans are more trouble than they are worth in MANY aspects, and it has nothing to do with loot.


Why did 10 mans need the incentive of having the same loot as 25 mans back in Cata? Blizzard should have just eliminated 10 mans back then and then this problem would have never existed.

People didnt prefer 10 mans back in wrath. Stop making up lies to try and support 10 mans.

How many 25 man raider have you seen say they think this idea will work? It wont work. The reason why is thfe elite 25 man guilds will not be effected but now with the added upgrade its just going to make more 25 man guilds disband quicker.

The main reason 25 mans are dying is because in th eearly going they gear up quicker than 10 mans because its most likely the loot can be used and most of the time it will go to whos more liked in the guild or the better players. Now with the thunder version it will even make a bigger difference between the players and that means 10 of them will get better gear faster and then when they hit a boss that the enrage timer is getting them they will look at the lower players (that didnt get the gear) and say they are not pulling their wait and be like you guys suck, were going 10 mans and then when they do they kill more bosses because 10 mans are basically easier than 25 mans.

Thats the problem 10 players can gear up faster in 25 mans and then drop down to 10 mans to kill bosses easier. That kills 25 mans and just makes the 10 think they are better than they are.

Right now its hard to get into a 25 man because there are not many of them. You get in one and then they dont have enough people and they go back to 10 mans because they dont want to deal with waiting. So you try again and the same thing happens.

This change they are doing will not help 25 mans at all. It will though give the 10 mans more ammo to get content nerfed though. Those top 100 guilds since vanilla are killing bosses faster than 10 man guilds are, thats unfair 10 mans are too hard. NERF NERF 10 mans NOW. Thats the only thing this change will do.


You cannot say no one like 10s in Wrath. My guild was one that preferred the 10 man format of Kara/ZA in TBC and when they announced the two size format for all raids we knew we were going to have 2-3+ 10 man groups instead of running 25s. This is from a group of friends who raided in EQ and 40s. So you cannot say that everyone who ran 0ss didn't like them. I am sure there are plenty more out there in the same situation.

If 25 mans we so much better, and yes the overwhelming thought besides the better loot in WotLK, was the it was more epic, being part of a larger group made it so much better than 10s. But we don't raid 25s for loot we raid for the experience. This was the war cry of the 25 man raider when Blizzard threw out the shared lockout and equalized difficulty for both 10s and 25s.

Now we see what the real draw was. It was the ability to have better gear and to look down upon the lowly 10 man groups and claim superiority. It had nothing to do with the experience. It had nothing to do with the epic fell of raiding with 24 other people. It was about loot and nothing else.

Overall there is no real differences between the two now. Some fights are harder on each side some are easier on each. Some offer more wiggle room on each. Gear is the same except there needs to be an incentive to raid 25s. Why is that? Because not many want to deal with the BS that comes with large groups. Yes you are correct. Blizzard wants 25s and they will add incentive to do so. However I think they need to follow the numbers and let 25s die off if no one wants to participate or leave it how it is. 1 extra piece of loot per kill and let the "real" raiders have their fun in 25s and let everyone else do what they prefer.
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Night Elf Druid
11830

Why did 10 mans need the incentive of having the same loot as 25 mans back in Cata? Blizzard should have just eliminated 10 mans back then and then this problem would have never existed.


In Burning Crusade, people really liked the single 10-man instance there, but there wasn't a progression path past that existed for people to keep progressing in 10s. There were some people who really liked the smaller raid size.

In WOTLK, they provided that 10-man experience, but the 10s were A) easier boss difficulty, B) lower ilevel, C) different achievements, D) on different lockouts, and E) harder to recruit for.

There were, however, plenty of 10-man "strict" guilds that never set foot in 25's, and they had their own leader-boards and rankings and achievements for it that allowed you to be a proud 10-man strict raid team.

In Cataclysm, Blizzard eliminated A, B, C, and D - therefore tipping the scales heavily on E in favor of 10s. By turning all those nobs in the direction of making 10s the "path of least resistance" to raiding, it tipped the scales in a way that makes it nearly impossible for new 25's to form. We've now hit the point where 25-mans are harder to form and recruit for. People recruiting for new guilds are largely having to pick up 10 and jump into the pool because it's too hard to ask people to wait until they pick up 15+ more people to start raiding - the path of least resistance to guild creation is the one that everyone is taking. Fortunately, that means A and B aren't the only nobs Blizzard can potentially turn to keep 25's as a viable size for new guilds to join. In addition, the change Blizzard made today still means that the raids are largely the same boss difficulty, same ilevel (just different drop chances), same achievements, and same lockout.

For example, lowering the administrative burden on 25s could include things like bringing back one size of cauldrons - only the 25-man size. Let 10s have to deal with individual flasks, but have the 25-mans able to choose to provide the consumables at the guild-level if they so choose. Removing cauldrons from 25s continues to be a quality of life issue with everyone using different flasks now. It wouldn't impact 10s at all, but it impacts 25s, and would make it actually seem like Blizzard cared about supporting the ability of 25s to be successful. If Blizzard wants 25s to work, they need to improve the quality of life and ease of creating a large guild.

Also, if they want thunderforged items to not have an administrative burden on 25s, they should just make all thunderforged drop from tokens (eg. any item you get from using the tokens you farm is a thunderforged item and the chance to get the items from your coins is significantly higher in 25s).
Edited by Lissanna on 1/25/2013 5:26 AM PST
11 Human Warrior
0

For example, lowering the administrative burden on 25s could include things like bringing back one size of cauldrons - only the 25-man size. Let 10s have to deal with individual flasks, but have the 25-mans able to choose to provide the consumables at the guild-level if they so choose. Removing cauldrons from 25s continues to be a quality of life issue with everyone using different flasks now. It wouldn't impact 10s at all, but it impacts 25s, and would make it actually seem like Blizzard cared about supporting the ability of 25s to be successful. If Blizzard wants 25s to work, they need to improve the quality of life and ease of creating a large guild.


This would be a change I think Blizzard should adopt this over additional gear. But how would something like that not get abused. 10s could make them as well. Everyone grab a flask use it now and grab a second so we don't wast that many mats. Would guilds have to check a box that they are 10 man or 25 man raiding groups? It may be a harder thing to implement but this is the direction they need to move in.
90 Tauren Warrior
9570
I still find it funny that people complain about server population imbalance yet want 25 mans killed. The massive exodus (see what I did there :D) to servers like Illidan and Mal'ganis is because there are literally like 3 servers in the entirety of WoW that can maintain 25 mans. Driving 25 mans to leave middle and low population servers because you literally have to be on super high pop servers to be able to find enough people to recruit since literally the only reason people play 25 mans is because they hate tens.

On that note, they do need to tip the balance back so people can have an actual choice on what raid format they want. But this is a terrible way of doing it.
11 Human Warrior
0
Maybe something like guild repairs are 5% cheaper if you are in a 25 man raid. Or durability loss is 1% less in 25 man settings. Something where you have to be in the 25 man raid to take advantage of. Just brainstorming.
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Night Elf Druid
11830


This would be a change I think Blizzard should adopt this over additional gear. But how would something like that not get abused. 10s could make them as well. Everyone grab a flask use it now and grab a second so we don't wast that many mats. Would guilds have to check a box that they are 10 man or 25 man raiding groups? It may be a harder thing to implement but this is the direction they need to move in.


I wouldn't care if 10s used them, but it would be more wasteful for 10s to do it (requiring a lot of mats), and they'd still be wasting 5 even if everyone actually remembered to take two. The psychological impact of only having one cauldron size (favoring the larger raid) is what would matter. I don't care if 10s benefit from the 25-man quality of life changes, but I want something to tip the scales in favor of it being a larger bonus to 25s that has zero impact on ilevel.
Edited by Lissanna on 1/25/2013 5:30 AM PST
90 Troll Shaman
6655
01/25/2013 05:20 AMPosted by Lissanna
For example, lowering the administrative burden on 25s could include things like bringing back one size of cauldrons - only the 25-man size. Let 10s have to deal with individual flasks, but have the 25-mans able to choose to provide the consumables at the guild-level if they so choose. Removing cauldrons from 25s continues to be a quality of life issue with everyone using different flasks now.


Oh please more flasks/feasts are not going to do anything. You could give 25mans FREE flasks/feast and it won't do anything. The administrative part your talking about is called recruiting and leading. Come to find out people for the most part are lazy and want to be lead by the nose and not have to work hard. Very few people actually step up and take the lead and take charge. In a 10man situation having just 1 or 2 people take the lead can lead to great results. However this cannot be the same in a larger setting without the person taking the charge investing a crap load of time on a personal level. God knows I spend way too much time in this game already doing that has 0 to do with learning how to down the next boss.

People need to face facts, 25 mans are going away because less and less leaders out there and all that is left are followers. You want to raid 25 mans? Ok step up and help out with running one/getting one going. As I said earlier in a post, all your crying and !@#$%ing won't save 25mans, only you getting off your lazy butt and helping run them will. Whats that, you want blizzard to do it for you? Sorry blizzard can't recruit for you, or not make your guild bad.

You want something in life work for it, stop acting like your too stupid or dumb to do it yourself. You got time to complain on these forums, you got time to step up in a leadership role.
11 Human Warrior
0
I still find it funny that people complain about server population imbalance yet want 25 mans killed. The massive exodus (see what I did there :D) to servers like Illidan and Mal'ganis is because there are literally like 3 servers in the entirety of WoW that can maintain 25 mans. Driving 25 mans to leave middle and low population servers because you literally have to be on super high pop servers to be able to find enough people to recruit since literally the only reason people play 25 mans is because they hate tens.

On that note, they do need to tip the balance back so people can have an actual choice on what raid format they want. But this is a terrible way of doing it.

I think if people wanted to raid 25s they would. People want the path of least resistance that offers them the best loot available. Remove the drama and the crap that comes with large groups then you may see more 25s.
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Night Elf Druid
11830
You got time to complain on these forums, you got time to step up in a leadership role.


For the record, I'm the recruitment officer for my guild's 25-man raid. I still think that a package of quality of life changes (not just cauldrons, but they're the easiest example) for 25s would make it easier for people to step up into those leadership roles.

If you have 2 officers per 10-man guild, that actually translates to 5 officers in a 25-man guild - if we smashed together 2.5 of the smaller guilds. Those leaders are still out there, and there are plenty of people who would lead a 25-man guild, but they choose not to because the option isn't available to them.
Edited by Lissanna on 1/25/2013 5:35 AM PST
90 Draenei Shaman
11125
01/25/2013 12:32 AMPosted by Herethebeef
So tell me, if 25 mans need extra incentive to be done, then why do they need to exist? Shouldn't "TEH EPIC BATTELZ WITH 24 OF YOUR FRIENDS" be alluring? Shouldn't the extra loot be alluring? Shouldn't the prestige that people claim comes with 25 man be alluring? It obviously isn't or else 25 mans wouldn't be in trouble.


Its stupid rediculous easy for a 25 to fall apart and turn into one or more 10 man guilds. If ever a moment comes where you only have 22 people on for raids, falling apart into a 10 man guild is inevitable.

Its stupid rediculous hard for a guild to recover from that and go back to 25's or for a 10 man guild to change its genre and start raiding 25's. It effectively means two fully operational 10 man groups first, who won't wanna team up anyway.

Its the arrow of entropy. Its inevitable.

Kul Tiras, Alliance, during Cata *tried* to make a 25 man guild. They were close, but didn't have 25 consistant players every raid night. In the meantime, they had to run 10 man. Guess what, it never took off the ground. Just two 10 man guilds like everybody else. Then one of the groups failed. Back to 10 man.

*shocker*

01/25/2013 05:20 AMPosted by Lissanna
In WOTLK, they provided that 10-man experience, but the 10s were A) easier boss difficulty, B) lower ilevel, C) different achievements, D) on different lockouts, and E) harder to recruit for.


They didn't provide 10 man because people enjoyed the experience better than 25 mans. They provided it for the countless guilds who didn't have enough people to raid 25, were not good enough to raid 25, were too casual to run 25, were too stubborn to leave their mom-and-pop casual guild to go raid 25.

Thats what it was for. Thats why it was easier. Thats why the items were lower level. And it should have stayed that way. It was a working system. The only reason it changed was all the hater threads warring it out about equality on the forum. The "little guild that couldn't" wasn't happy.

And just IMHO, it was a lot more fun for alts. Raid with your real guild during the week, hit the 10 man on alts over the weekend. 10 man being easy enough you can pug a few people and get some gear on your alt. Never bored.
Edited by Vodkaparty on 1/25/2013 5:41 AM PST
11 Human Warrior
0
01/25/2013 05:35 AMPosted by Vodkaparty
So tell me, if 25 mans need extra incentive to be done, then why do they need to exist? Shouldn't "TEH EPIC BATTELZ WITH 24 OF YOUR FRIENDS" be alluring? Shouldn't the extra loot be alluring? Shouldn't the prestige that people claim comes with 25 man be alluring? It obviously isn't or else 25 mans wouldn't be in trouble.


Its stupid rediculous easy for a 25 to fall apart and turn into one or more 10 man guilds. If ever a moment comes where you only have 22 people on for raids, falling apart into a 10 man guild is inevitable.

Its stupid rediculous hard for a guild to recover from that and go back to 25's or for a 10 man guild to change its genre and start raiding 25's. It effectively means two fully operational 10 man groups first, who won't wanna team up anyway.

Its the arrow of entropy. Its inevitable.

Kul Tiras, Alliance, during Cata *tried* to make a 25 man guild. They were close, but didn't have 25 consistant players every raid night. In the meantime, they had to run 10 man. Guess what, it never took off the ground. Just two 10 man guilds like everybody else. Then one of the groups failed. Back to 10 man.

*shocker*

In WOTLK, they provided that 10-man experience, but the 10s were A) easier boss difficulty, B) lower ilevel, C) different achievements, D) on different lockouts, and E) harder to recruit for.


They didn't provide 10 man because people enjoyed the experience better than 25 mans. They provided it for the countless guilds who didn't have enough people to raid 25, were not good enough to raid 25, were too casual to run 25, were too stubborn to leave their mom-and-pop casual guild to go raid 25.

Thats what it was for. Thats why it was easier. Thats why the items were lower level. And it should have stayed that way. It was a working system. The only reason it changed was all the hater threads warring it out about equality on the forum. The "little guild that couldn't" wasn't happy.

And just IMHO, it was a lot more fun for alts. Raid with your real guild during the week, hit the 10 man on alts over the weekend. Never bored.


Blizzard has stated they did not want the burn out of people thinking they have to do both lockouts. Blizzard was protecting the players from themselves and their "must do everything" zombie like behaviors. It had nothing about 10s wanting equal loot. There some of that on the forums, but not nearly as much as the "have to run both" arguments.
90 Tauren Death Knight
2940
I don't like the idea of 25mans giving better gear, unless 10s and 25s are on different lockouts
90 Draenei Shaman
11125
Blizzard has stated they did not want the burn out of people thinking they have to do both lockouts. Blizzard was protecting the players from themselves and their "must do everything" zombie like behaviors.


Aye

Then they kill us with dailies instead.

Instead of letting us raid multiple things on multiple toons with an easier 10 format for friends, pugs and alts. Don't recall pondering quitting because I was raiding too much. Certainly ponder quitting over dailies burnout for the last month
Edited by Vodkaparty on 1/25/2013 6:07 AM PST
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Night Elf Druid
11830

I think if people wanted to raid 25s they would. People want the path of least resistance that offers them the best loot available. Remove the drama and the crap that comes with large groups then you may see more 25s.


I do run 25s. I pretty much exclusively run 25s. My 25-man guild is fairly low drama. We have some, but we have so many rules prescribed on our forums that drama gets taken care of under a system that is clear to our raiders. The 10-man raids still have drama. That's part of having more than 1 person in a space. I may actually want to start including 25-man guild leadership posts on my blog and start posting some of our raid rules in public for people to use. My guild's 25-man goes strong because we have a set of really great leaders who do many hours of work to make it happen. However, more and more it is becoming less likely for good leaders to have the resources to be able to step into a 25-man leadership role.

While my guild does 10s to supplement our 25-man raiding (eg. we can't get 3 nights of 25s, so instead we do two nights of 25s and a night of 10s to finish the raids when needed), I don't particularly enjoy them and I'm not particularly good at them, so I'm in favor of whatever keeps a raid size larger than 10 alive. I've been a huge proponent for several years of wanting to move to a 15-man raid size instead of having two raid sizes we called "equal" but never were. Alas, that never happened, so I'm just trying to figure out how to get more 25-mans back on my server so that we have competition again - because I miss having other competitors. :(
Edited by Lissanna on 1/25/2013 6:15 AM PST
90 Worgen Druid
0
01/23/2013 02:55 PMPosted by Crithto
Crithto, will using the 5.2 equivalent of Elder Charms grant a chance at Thunderforged Loot or will it be exclusively limited to drops?

Yes, bonus rolls in 10- and 25-player raids will also afford you a chance to receive a Thunderforged item.

Hypothetically speaking, say a boss had 13 items that can drop from him. He doesn't drop any tier. How many of those 13 items would be marked that they can be thunderforged? All 13? only 4 of those 13? etc.

Hypothetically, yes, all 13 of those non-tier items would have a chance to be Thunderforged.

Why must you introduce an artificial incentive that promotes a less favorable format for the majority of players? And by less favorable, I mean by simply looking at how many guilds raid 10 vs 25.

Getting better loot has always been a part of this game and in Patch 5.2 the variety is being increased. We think this is a good thing. However, calling 25-player raids less favorable is unfounded and an unfair assessment. Tons of players would love to do 25s, but the coordination and effort to do so is more difficult with very little additional reward. 10s aren't more popular because the entire community agreed they're more fun, it's just a simple case of effort versus reward.

There are two main points we're trying to address with this change:
  • Raiding in 10- and 25-player dungeons already provides the same item level rewards for everyone. Engaging in the logistics of the larger raid format, however, we feel should be rewarded and the slight increase in chances to receive a Thunderforged item in 25-player is our effort to strike a better balance between both raid sizes.
  • The addition of Thunderforged items also have benefits for both 10- and 25-player raids. For instance, if a raid group is stuck on boss #5 and their members have all the viable upgrades from previous bosses, going through those bosses again to work on #5 can now bring added bonuses. We think this makes these efforts much more fun and rewarding.

  • From Twitter:
    Will there be a visual to indicate you're wearing Thunderforged gear or just the iLvl difference?

    There won't be any visual effects, Thunderforged is a tag much like "Heroic" and indicates that the item is slightly better than its Normal/Heroic counterpart.

    We're still going through your feedback and really do appreciate the things you've shared. Please keep it coming.


    I just want to add that while 10 player raiding seems to be the popular format, it is not all roses. It has its drawbacks too. While easier to organize, the skill check is much higher on a per person basis. There is far less room for error. If one person makes a mistake and dies or doesn't pull their weight the chance of the encounter being a failure is multiplicatively higher than one person dying or not pulling their weight in 25 man.

    While the organizational challenges might currently be trumping that draw back, loot incentives always tend to swing the pendulum in the opposite direction instead of finding the middle ground.

    I agree with some of the suggestions here. Instead of using loot incentives, why not address the issue at the core of its problem? Why not introduce some tools to make organizing 25 man easier?

    When a Dr. is trying to cure a patient, he will have better success in diagnosing and treating the core problem rather than treating the symptoms and hoping for the best.
    90 Human Warrior
    7835
    I just want to add that while 10 player raiding seems to be the popular format, it is not all roses. It has its drawbacks too. While easier to organize, the skill check is much higher on a per person basis. There is far less room for error. If one person makes a mistake and dies or doesn't pull their weight the chance of the encounter being a failure is multiplicatively higher than one person dying or not pulling their weight in 25 man.

    While the organizational challenges might currently be trumping that draw back, loot incentives always tend to swing the pendulum in the opposite direction instead of finding the middle ground.

    I agree with some of the suggestions here. Instead of using loot incentives, why not address the issue at the core of its problem? Why not introduce some tools to make organizing 25 man easier?

    When a Dr. is trying to cure a patient, he will have better success in diagnosing and treating the core problem rather than treating the symptoms and hoping for the best.


    These are all reasons why the going to 1 raid size, 15-man for many additional reasons is really where they need to go. Hopefully we will see 1 Raid size with each boss having 3-5 different levels of difficulty like in Ulduar before the final expansion. Or at least in the Next Blizzard MMO, as I am not sure if WoW is repairable at this point. The rate of change has actually caused change burnout in part of the playerbase.
    If I come back to this game this sort of change won't make me become a 25 man raider. The only thing that will is if I simply try out 25 man raiding and find I really like it. Forcing progression focused guilds into 25 man raiding over 10 man is stupid and I don't think the race should be done with both 10 and 25 man groups looking at each other. Separate achievements go from there eventually fix servers that can't really sustain a 25 man guild then work on quality of life changes.

    You have lost any clever subtle touch to help this game. A tier rng loot system inside another tier what the really... I feel like at best you could do that with dungeons but not raids.
    90 Draenei Priest
    17465
    Cross realm raiding is not the answer. It will probably totally decimate guilds on medium pop servers that have managed to pull together 25 man raiding teams.
    MVP - World of Warcraft
    90 Night Elf Druid
    11830
    01/25/2013 06:50 AMPosted by Shinyman
    Separate achievements go from there eventually fix servers that can't really sustain a 25 man guild then work on quality of life changes.


    Well, yes, I've been asking for different achievements and the ability for 25's to track their 25-man progress on the Armory (rather than collapsing across raid size). I personally feel that having achievements collapse across raid size is as horrible to me as a 25-man raider as as if achievements were collapsed across LFR/Normal/Heroic that made it impossible to tell difficulty level. I have no problem with making it such that 25-man raiders can't achieve both sets of achievements, but I want flavor text on the achievements and differential tracking on the character page of the armory that indicates what raid size you killed the bosses on. I want 10s to have a badge that shows they're doing 10s, and 25s to have a badge that shows they're doing 25s. By collapsing across achievements, they make the extra organizational effort of being an officer and forming a new 25-man guild mean absolutely nothing on the armory. Achievement tracking is the one thing I've asked for the most. Even if the achievements are functionally equal, they've had the system in place to put flavor text on the achievements showing "complete A or B" -> and just then show whether A or B was completed to achieve it.

    Without really dramatic changes to improve the ability for people to choose 25s, it is still likely that 25s won't exist in the next expansion. Even PTR and Beta testing favors 10-mans, with the 25-man Beta testing almost feeling like an after-thought once the 10s were done for MOP. The psychological impacts of that are that Blizzard cares more about testing the 10s than they do the 25s. Blizzard is favoring 10s in every aspect of the game and that hurts the 25s ability to exist as a raid size - because right now, your choice of PTR testing is 10s or nothing for all the PTR testing of 5.2 that has been done thus far. Supporting every aspect of 25s also includes making sure that 25s get equal opportunity to beta testing and PTR testing their boss size.
    Edited by Lissanna on 1/25/2013 7:23 AM PST
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