10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

(Locked)

90 Night Elf Warrior
10970
I referenced that 25man organization was more challenging, but rewarding the participants is not the answer, reward the guild/leaders (see below). I was speaking from some past personal experience and regarding cliques, was not implying that happens everywhere. I guess by definition a guild is a bit of a clique, rephrased to sub-cliques :P


Do you imagine what kind of individual you promote to start guilds if you give rewards to the Guild masters and officer ? You will just promote selfish individuals who want the reward to create guild for their own gain.

As a Guild Master, the only reward you can bring me is a good health for my guild thats been my project for years. And with all the 25man dying all around us, its only a matter of months/years before it happens to my 25man. 10man had their time, and the experiment was a failure, Blizzard has to make a change a real one, bring in 1 format, either 10, or 25. Not both.
90 Human Paladin
10740
01/25/2013 08:42 AMPosted by Tectonicbomb
Some people like 10's and some people like 25s and they're going to defend their preference.


People shouldn't have to defend their preference, and should be better equipped to raid whichever they prefer. This idea that they can't meaningfully co-exist is absurd, but continuing to leverage incentives for one format over the other is always going to leave one with greater friction than the other.

Irritating when incentives aren't the problem with 25s. The problems are related to organization and recruiting, and Blizzard offers no meaningful tools to help in this process.
90 Gnome Priest
11795
@ Tectonicbomb:

Why does it matter which raid group size you are? You just said there isn't much prestige anymore. If it doesn't matter which is harder, why would prestige have any bearing? You now what you did. Is displaying the difference really that meaningful?


If you'd bothered to read this thread, you would have seen multiple people from 25 man guilds saying YES, it matters. For instance, you would have seen me say it (RL of a 25man 5/16hm guild). I assure you the people in my guild share the sentiment.

As has been said repeatedly, the problem facing 25mans is logistics and organization. A shiny little badge we can look at with pride is actually a mark that we put that time in and did that. Blizzard, of course, could just help us out with guild recruitment tools and quality of life issues instead of this rather useless attempt at fix-via-RNG. Doesn't mean the mark of achievement isn't meaningful!

@ Herethebeef:

And separating achievements is a terrible idea. Because then 25 mans would have access to 2X as many achievements.


You can't possibly be serious. Addressing a problem affecting the raiding playerbase is less important than making sure some players don't get a few extra achievement points each patch? Not to mention this could be fixed technically.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840

The only thing that needs to change to make 25s better, is the quality and desire of raiders to do 25s. As an officer of a former 25 man guild that is now a 10 man guild, and more importantly the recruitment officer, the biggest challenge facing 25 man raiding is the culture of game and the mentality of the raiders.

I don't care what Blizzard favors or not, but give me 30 or so raiders who will show up, know their class to an expert level, and research fights - and I'll run a 25 man guild.


Well, yes, that's the focus on administrative burden that I'm trying to say needs to be compensated for to make it worth doing. You'll get better quality raiders if they introduce things that increase the desire for high-quality raiders to want to join the raids. People are going to follow the path of least resistance - so either you need just one path, or you need to acknowledge that the two paths aren't equal. You get officers willing to do the work if Blizzard provides multiple layers of support and the raiders have the desire to run the content. It's possible that Blizzard pushed the culture of raiding so far that 25s aren't long-term sustainable into the future of WOW, but they also hold the power to bring the teeter-totter of desirability back towards 25s if they want to. However, all their decisions favor helping 10s at the cost of hurting 25s.


I agree with most of this. I don't think 6 ilvls is enough to swing a teeter-totter. I think the problem isn't so much about helping 10s at the cost of 25s, I think it's about helping people raid as a whole. Because under the old TBC/Wotlk model, it was either do 25s and conform to our rules and standards as a guild, or you're not raiding. Unfortunately, that was the level of pressure some of us needed to get people to show up and put in 50 wipes to get a boss down.

In all honesty, one of the biggest issues with 25 man raiding is content difficulty. I don't need 25 people to do hardmode content, I need 25 good, interested, and dedicated people. Given how casual the game has become in the past 5 years, those kind of people are even harder to find. If we had 25, we'd do 25s. But we don't, we have about 14. And finding those other 9 on Duskwood is a major problem. So 10s it is.
Edited by Firestyle on 1/25/2013 9:06 AM PST
90 Tauren Warrior
0
01/25/2013 08:54 AMPosted by Narph
As a Guild Master, the only reward you can bring me is a good health for my guild thats been my project for years. And with all the 25man dying all around us, its only a matter of months/years before it happens to my 25man. 10man had their time, and the experiment was a failure, Blizzard has to make a change a real one, bring in 1 format, either 10, or 25. Not both.


Wait wait wait. So.......because 25 mans are dying.........10 mans are the failure?

Sorry, that means 25 mans are the failure. And they were a failure before 10 mans really even existed. Because before they were 25 mans, they were 40 mans. 40 mans were a failure because of the logistics. 25 mans were and are a failure because of the logistics. 10 mans were a success.....because of the logistics.
90 Pandaren Monk
10905
01/23/2013 09:00 AMPosted by Crithto
we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes


I'm so glad Blizzard is looking into this!

My 2 cents about the loot: make epics be epics again. Everyone runs in purples these days.

We have standard purples, heroic purples, LFR purples, upgraded purples...seriously!

Reading through this, one thing I can say is that we need better tools to set up a big raid.
With consistent attendance, guild leaders, raid leaders and officers have not to turn the game into a full time job, draining the fun out of it, to gather/know raiders among the playerbase to get the raid running.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455

Having 10 mans and 25 mans share loot was the worst thing they did.......for 25 mans. Not for everyone else. If better loot is the only thing 25 mans had to offer to the world.........then they DO need to go away. Because then they aren't actually offering people anything they actually want.....the reasons people claim they love 25 mans.


Let me make it clearer for you. It was one of the worst things for the GAME. Not what makes it easier for you and your buds to get together and Raid. That's never been questioned. The need to balance 10's has hurt the game.

What has switching the majority of the player base to 10's brought to the game?

Class Homogenization -

Have to make sure every Buff, Debuff or Utility is available to the 10 format or it isn't fair. That means Buff Normalization, Interrupt Normalization etc. It also means the devs can't make unique skills for classes or that class may become required. Not a problem in 25's but it is an issue with 10's.

We've lost classic MMO roles like Buffing classes (Shaman in Vanilla and TBC) and general Utility Classes (think of Bards in EQor Hybrids in Vanilla).

Encounter Design Limitations -

Instructor Razuvious in Naxx. Required a Priest for Mind Control in Vanilla. No big deal since you should be expected to have every class in a 40 man Raid. For Wrath they needed to add Pylons to duplicate the effect to make sure 10's were covered.

High King Mulgar - Required a Mage to Tank Krosh. Only a Mage could do it because of Spellsteal.

This goes along with the above and class homogenization. We'll never see encounters like this again because it's not fair to the poor 10 man players who want to "bring the player, not the class". That's not a good thing.

In a game with 33 specs 10 players Raids are bad for the game. It was fine in Wrath when there was no effort to make them the same difficulty. The devs could still balance for 25's and use all the tools at their disposal to design encounters. We could have distinct class skills because it wold be expected that a 25 man Raid would have all the classes covered.

Maybe if Titan is designed from the ground up around the idea of 10 man group encounters it will work but this game was designed around large scale end game encounters and 10 mans are an abomination in that context. I don't care that you prefer the format it makes the game as a whole worse.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
I never said that there weren't skilled 25m groups, I just stated that 25's have an easier time carrying dead weight than 10's do which is why they were the preferred pug format in Wrath despite being the "harder" difficulty.


Like the person above me said, people PUGd Wrath 25's because they gave higher ilevel loot.

The fallacy of 25-mans being able to "carry dead weight" just isn't true. If one of the 25 people screw up a raid mechanic, it is just as likely to kill you as if someone screws up a mechanic on 10-man. You also have 25 points of failure for someone to make an 'oops' in 25-man. Things like the Ultraxion button require personal responsibility regardless of the raid size. The DPS requirements on 25s are just as harsh as the DPS requirements on 10s.

The entire discussion has zero to do with boss difficulty and personal responsibility inside the actual raid. It's not about the bosses or what happens during boss fights that makes 25-mans less desirable as a raid size in Cata and MOP. In fact, outside of LFR, there isn't a raid where you can "carry" anyone. LFR achieves being easy by stripping every fight of the need for personal responsibility. The 25-man normal and heroic fights, however, require the same amount of personal responsibility as the 10-man normal and heroic fights.

The boss fights aren't the problem. The problem is the administrative barriers before you hit the point of entering the raid dungeon, and the responsibilities of being an officer and raid leader.


Well the 2 go hand in hand. If I can't surmount the administrative difficulty of finding 25 competent players, then all of a sudden the difficulty of that personal responsibility on the 4 retards I have to bring becomes a problem. It's a secondary issue derivative of the administrative issue, but it materializes as a content difficultly issue.

So the logical decision most of us in that sitation made was to raid 10 man. Because Blizzard wasn't going to make 25 man hardmode content balanced around 18 good players and 7 derps.
Edited by Firestyle on 1/25/2013 9:14 AM PST
90 Troll Mage
10765
I think its a perfectly fair change. As long as the ilvls are just bonus and not the "required" gear for clearing the instance. If things in this patch or future patches are tuned based on that it could get kind of sticky, but really its not the much of a difference.

And to all you people complains, I hope you understand sarcasm

http://www.thedailyblink.com/comics/2013-01-23-410.jpg
90 Troll Mage
10765
Well the 2 go hand in hand. If I can't surmount the administrative difficulty of finding 25 competent players, then all of a sudden the difficulty of that personal responsibility on the 4 retards I have to bring becomes a problem. It's a secondary issue derivative of the administrative issue, but it materializes as a content difficultly issue.


Also that was incredibly well put. Dont think I've ever seen it explained better.
87 Night Elf Druid
10075
Idk why blizz ever changed, what they had wasnt broke let you do 10s and 25s in the same week then guilds will grow, relm pops will grow, what you had before wasnt broken guys why did you change it.
90 Tauren Warrior
0
Let me make it clearer for you. It was one of the worst things for the GAME. Not what makes it easier for you and your buds to get together and Raid. That's never been questioned. The need to balance 10's has hurt the game.


Not really.

Class Homogenization -

Have to make sure every Buff, Debuff or Utility is available to the 10 format or it isn't fair. That means Buff Normalization, Interrupt Normalization etc. It also means the devs can't make unique skills for classes or that class may become required. Not a problem in 25's but it is an issue with 10's.

We've lost classic MMO roles like Buffing classes (Shaman in Vanilla and TBC) and general Utility Classes (think of Bards in EQor Hybrids in Vanilla).


Thats not a good thing, thats a bad thing. Because then you start recruiting people for their class, and people either get side barred or not recruited at all, because of the class they picked. Thats stupid.

Encounter Design Limitations -

Instructor Razuvious in Naxx. Required a Priest for Mind Control in Vanilla. No big deal since you should be expected to have every class in a 40 man Raid. For Wrath they needed to add Pylons to duplicate the effect to make sure 10's were covered.


So how was that a bad thing? Either way, 2-4 of your players are busy MC'ing a mob, what class they were, was fundamentally irrelevant. So that actually hurts your argument. GATA HAVE 4 PRIESTS puts limitations on who the raid wants to bring. And if all you had was 4 priests, and if any of them were healers, you had to switch out for more healers. And as you said, 2 pylons that duplicated the effect fixed it. Whats the problem with that?

High King Mulgar - Required a Mage to Tank Krosh. Only a Mage could do it because of Spellsteal.

This goes along with the above and class homogenization. We'll never see encounters like this again because it's not fair to the poor 10 man players who want to "bring the player, not the class". That's not a good thing.


And good riddance to that. In BC I loved my rogue, but for my raid I was the only one who even HAD a mage, so I was forced to level him and gear him up just for that encounter. Again, that really only hurts your argument. GATA HAVE A MAGE. Not, we want to have a mage, wed like to have a mage, GATA HAVE A MAGE WHO GETS PIDGEONHOLED INTO A JOB. Thats dumb. Feng proves that mechanics like that are still possible, get a gem that gives you the ability.

You are the first person I have seen in a long time that has argued that having to have X class in a raid is a good thing. That less choice is a GOOD thing. /facepalm
Edited by Herethebeef on 1/25/2013 9:29 AM PST
90 Tauren Warrior
9630
01/25/2013 08:32 AMPosted by Herethebeef
I dont think its so much the difficulty part of it that is making people not want to do it, there isn't any prestige with running a successful 25m guild like there used to be. Honestly separating the achievements would be a much more welcome solution than this stupid rng loot idea. Most 25m raiders just want to be able to see on their achievements that they killed heroic garajal on 25m. Whether or not its harder in either difficulty doesnt matter, right now with the shared achieves there is no way to differentiate a 25m raider from a 10m raider. Honestly I think that is all most of us want from this.


Youd be wrong. And separating achievements is a terrible idea. Because then 25 mans would have access to 2X as many achievements.


10 man raiders would have access to the exact same number of achievement.... I think you need to google the word access...
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
Achievements could be done if only mutually exclusive. You get one or the other, not both.
90 Tauren Warrior
0
01/25/2013 09:28 AMPosted by Judson


Youd be wrong. And separating achievements is a terrible idea. Because then 25 mans would have access to 2X as many achievements.


10 man raiders would have access to the exact same number of achievement.... I think you need to google the word access...


No they wouldn't. Because a 25 man group could splinter off and mop up those achievements. A 10 man could not. It being their is not "access". A short person does not have access to stuff on the top shelf of a grocery store. Oh sure, its there, but they do not have access to it.

You knew what I meant, but are playing Mr. Technicality in a feeble attempt to prove me wrong and support your point.
90 Orc Shaman
13750
So tell me, if 25 mans need extra incentive to be done, then why do they need to exist? Shouldn't "TEH EPIC BATTELZ WITH 24 OF YOUR FRIENDS" be alluring? Shouldn't the extra loot be alluring? Shouldn't the prestige that people claim comes with 25 man be alluring? It obviously isn't or else 25 mans wouldn't be in trouble.

People need no incentive to do 10 mans. Even before the gear equalization, people were preferring 10 mans and the cries of "25 mans are dying!" despite 10 mans dropping inferior gear during wrath. So the "gear equalization ruined everything" is pure bunk. Since the decline was happening way before it happened.


I don't know that you can really say that. 25s were still thriving up until Cataclysm, which is when the gear equalization happened. Giving 10s equal gear was basically incentive to do 10s, so by your logic that never should have happened.
Edited by Hyjinx on 1/25/2013 9:39 AM PST
90 Tauren Warrior
9630
No they wouldn't. Because a 25 man group could splinter off and mop up those achievements. A 10 man could not. It being their is not "access". A short person does not have access to stuff on the top shelf of a grocery store. Oh sure, its there, but they do not have access to it.

You knew what I meant, but are playing Mr. Technicality in a feeble attempt to prove me wrong and support your point.


A ten man guild can also wait until the next xpac and solo the 25m achieves... what is your point. That is literally the most illogical reasoning for not separating the achievements.

Or you know, 2 10 man guilds can pug 5 derps and do it in normal content since 25s are so ezmode
Edited by Judson on 1/25/2013 9:41 AM PST
90 Night Elf Warrior
10970
And good riddance to that. In BC I loved my rogue, but for my raid I was the only one who even HAD a mage, so I was forced to level him and gear him up just for that encounter. Again, that really only hurts your argument. GATA HAVE A MAGE. Not, we want to have a mage, wed like to have a mage, GATA HAVE A MAGE WHO GETS PIDGEONHOLED INTO A JOB. Thats dumb. Feng proves that mechanics like that are still possible, get a gem that gives you the ability.

You are the first person I have seen in a long time that has argued that having to have X class in a raid is a good thing. That less choice is a GOOD thing. /facepalm

#1012
9 minutes ago
Like


There is a HUGE amount of example about how much the developpers are limited in a setup where they have to create encounters for 10man and 25man, thats why your 10man mode is the failure of WoW.

Ever since 10 has become equal, WoW has been dropping subscriptions like no tomorrow. Is there correlation ? Maybe, maybe not, its open for debate.

It doesnt change the fact that even if you dont think Maulgar is a good example, I will use a few more for you.

No more Muru encounters : there was a need for 4 tanks in that fight, cant do that in 10man;

No more 4 Horsement encounter : Same thing, 4 tanks, cant do it

No more Nefarian BWD encounter ; 3 Pillar is too much for 10man players, it was unfair to them with all the interrupts

Any kind of mechanics that requires spreading out the raid is being avoided because it is unfair to 25man;

We have very creative developpers for encounters, and I cannot even begin to imagine what they could pull of if they werent restricted by your joke of a 10man mode.
85 Tauren Druid
10075
Want to bring back 25s quit sugar coating and make 10s and 25s availible the same week give 25s better gear drops....not a high item difference but a slight better IL difference.
That way 10s recruit like crazy to get toa 25man level, guilds will grow, servers will repopulate and this game will thrive and get more customers insted of pandering the selfish 10mans that have 3 10man raids a week of the same 10 people, after all this is a MMO. Sorry bout grammar and spelling but in a hurry just looking these over. This way 10mans can get what they want and be able to work towards 25s or stay 10s.
90 Blood Elf Rogue
17420
What about low-population servers? On our server, no guild has even stepped foot into 25m raids. Is it possible to start combining servers? Crossrealm guild invites?

Until there is a way to increase the population on our server, the 10 & 25 raid loot changes are meaningless to us.

Edit: Listed below is raid progress in 25m for our server

http://www.guildox.com/go/g.asp?r=Archimonde-US&w=&a=2
Edited by Nøva on 1/25/2013 9:56 AM PST
This topic is locked.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]