10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Tauren Warrior
9660
01/25/2013 11:19 AMPosted by Dysheki
I said destroyed is an overstatement. I said I don't think 25s will die, but that is a personal opinion. I think the death rate of 25s has slowed.


That's because there aren't enough left to die at the rate they were. Its like saying "oh the fire in my house has slowed down" when your house is in ashes.
90 Worgen Druid
17805
15 25m guilds doing icc25 heroics, next tier....0
Thats not even counting the 25m pugs that actually were run at that time.

You're proving my point. The huge death of 25 man guilds has already happened. That drop-off happened years ago and the deaths aren't as prevalent. The dying has slowed since then.

http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/us/zul-jin/rating.tier10_25
http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/us/zul-jin/rating.tier14_25

I see 4 guilds killed HLK25 on Zul'jin. You do realize how long ICC was out, right? Ages. They also had a 30% buff in place. So of course you'll see more 25 man guilds getting heroic kills.

So compared to the 4 HLK kills, you now have 1 Heroic Sha 25 kill, 1 guild is probably close at 15/16H, and another guild is 12/16H. I'd be willing to bet any amount of money that you'll have at least 2 and probably 3 heroic 25 Sha kills before the next tier is out. So 4 HLK kills compared to 2-3 Heroic Sha kills . . .
Edited by Dysheki on 1/25/2013 11:33 AM PST
90 Troll Priest
11525
Not a fan of the idea of thunderforged gear.

Why don't you just add a tag to each piece of gear that drops in 25s that say it's from a 25 man and gear that drops in 10s that say it's from a 10 man.

The labels add a sense of prestige and a way to differentiate between the two. Rewarding players because they have one of a few factors - better computer ability, more WoW friends, luckier to find a stable group for 25, etc - that are different than others doesn't seem like fair gameplay.
Edited by Dazbekzul on 1/25/2013 11:41 AM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
0
01/25/2013 11:34 AMPosted by Dazbekzul
Why don't you just add a tag to each piece of gear that drops in 25s that say it's from a 25 man and gear that drops in 10s that say it's from a 10 man.


This is also a good idea but still no where near enough. They really need to separate achievements as well (and much more)
90 Worgen Druid
17805
I said destroyed is an overstatement. I said I don't think 25s will die, but that is a personal opinion. I think the death rate of 25s has slowed.


That's because there aren't enough left to die at the rate they were. Its like saying "oh the fire in my house has slowed down" when your house is in ashes.

A little bit right, sure, but a lot of these 25 man guilds remaining are still very competitive and aren't going anywhere. Hence my prediction that you won't have the same rate of decline you used to have and instead I think we'll see a stabilization of 25 man raids. It's a much smaller population but if people enjoy the 25 man format like they say they do so much then they should stick around and do it.
Edited by Dysheki on 1/25/2013 11:39 AM PST
90 Night Elf Warrior
10970
01/25/2013 11:39 AMPosted by Dysheki
A little bit right, sure, but a lot of these 25 man guilds remaining are still very competitive and aren't going anywhere. Hence my prediction that you won't have the same rate of decline you used to have and instead I think we'll see a stabilization of 25 man raids. It's a much smaller population but if people enjoy the 25 man format like they say they do so much then they should stick around and do it.


No, that is just simply not true, its a day to day battle for the recruiting officers everywhere around the different servers, and sooner or later, we will all disappear unless there is a major change.
90 Orc Shaman
13750
01/25/2013 11:39 AMPosted by Dysheki


That's because there aren't enough left to die at the rate they were. Its like saying "oh the fire in my house has slowed down" when your house is in ashes.

A little bit right, sure, but a lot of these 25 man guilds remaining are still very competitive and aren't going anywhere. Hence my prediction that you won't have the same rate of decline you used to have and instead I think we'll see a stabilization of 25 man raids. It's a much smaller population but if people enjoy the 25 man format like they say they do so much then they should stick around and do it.


They will go somewhere because the recruitment pool those guilds use is dwindling. Hardcore 25s still exist, for now. Any other method of 25 man raiding has drastically declined and will continue to do so.
90 Troll Priest
11525

No, that is just simply not true, its a day to day battle for the recruiting officers everywhere around the different servers, and sooner or later, we will all disappear unless there is a major change.


It's a similar issue for a lot of 10 mans too and most of it has to do with a lack of population consolidation on servers. 25 mans are dying more quickly because they require a more condensed population than 10s to recruit from. Dysheki brought up the idea of allowing free character returns to their former server if a situation doesn't work out with a new guild. Personally, I think that's one of the best ideas regarding the issue that I've seen.
90 Worgen Druid
17805
01/25/2013 11:43 AMPosted by Narph
A little bit right, sure, but a lot of these 25 man guilds remaining are still very competitive and aren't going anywhere. Hence my prediction that you won't have the same rate of decline you used to have and instead I think we'll see a stabilization of 25 man raids. It's a much smaller population but if people enjoy the 25 man format like they say they do so much then they should stick around and do it.


No, that is just simply not true, its a day to day battle for the recruiting officers everywhere around the different servers, and sooner or later, we will all disappear unless there is a major change.

Welp, I'll tell you why I don't raid 25s anymore. I used to, I used to really enjoy it. But I grew up. I don't have the time I used to have to help run/participate in 25s. It was a lot of work outside of the raid to make sure everything would go according to plan and help carry some of the terrible we were forced to play with during the raid.

I used to play so much I became an achievement hoarder. Just obsessed with everything about this game. But I'm not there anymore. I don't even have the 6,000 valor needed for the next step in the legendary quest. 10s give me a chance to still do difficult content and not worry as much about recruiting, not worry about people not pulling their weight, not worry about making sure everyone knew what strat we were using. It's so nice.

So who's to say the development decisions of the WoW team hurt the game? I know if 25s were still the premier tier I would likely have quit the game. I don't want to deal with it anymore. Call me a curmudgeon, but I just don't want to. Too much hassle (regardless of the reward). Nothing they do will get me back to 25s. And if they go back to a separate lockout situation like in ICC, I'm gone. I don't want to put that much time and effort into the game. I can't anymore. I'm here posting on a slow Friday afternoon, but in a few hours I'll be enjoying some drinks where in my old days I probably came back home and played some WoW instead.

So if 25s do indeed disappear, is it because the development decisions that were made at Blizzard? Or the player base has changed? Will the people who went to 10s go back to 25s even if they separate lockouts and give better gear to the 25s? I don't know. That's up for them to decide. I know I wouldn't.
90 Worgen Druid
17805

No, that is just simply not true, its a day to day battle for the recruiting officers everywhere around the different servers, and sooner or later, we will all disappear unless there is a major change.


It's a similar issue for a lot of 10 mans too and most of it has to do with a lack of population consolidation on servers. 25 mans are dying more quickly because they require a more condensed population than 10s to recruit from. Dysheki brought up the idea of allowing free character returns to their former server if a situation doesn't work out with a new guild. Personally, I think that's one of the best ideas regarding the issue that I've seen.

I would like to state it wasn't my original idea, it was someone else's earlier in this humongous thread that I can't go back in to look for. Not trying to take credit, but I just think the idea is a really good one and needs to be discussed.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455

You are the first person I have seen in a long time that has argued that having to have X class in a raid is a good thing. That less choice is a GOOD thing. /facepalm


Facepalm back at you. Just make 4 classes then and be done with it. Less choice is a good thing if it promotes interesting mechanics and decisions. The game has devolved where choices mean nothing. It's bad for the game and is reflected in the dying realms.

In Raids of 25 players or higher it was expected that you'd have every class. So that meant the devs could give classes unique and powerful abilities and then tune encounters around those skills.

You're so stuck on the small group model that you can't fathom why that much diversity is good for the game. I'm sorry you can't see beyond your own desires. A game with 33 specs but only 10 Raid slots is snooze inducing due to the need to spread class abilities around for fairness.


Welp, I'll tell you why I don't raid 25s anymore. I used to, I used to really enjoy it. But I grew up. I don't have the time I used to have to help run/participate in 25s. It was a lot of work outside of the raid to make sure everything would go according to plan and help carry some of the terrible we were forced to play with during the raid.

I used to play so much I became an achievement hoarder. Just obsessed with everything about this game. But I'm not there anymore. I don't even have the 6,000 valor needed for the next step in the legendary quest. 10s give me a chance to still do difficult content and not worry as much about recruiting, not worry about people not pulling their weight, not worry about making sure everyone knew what strat we were using. It's so nice.

.........

So if 25s do indeed disappear, is it because the development decisions that were made at Blizzard? Or the player base has changed? Will the people who went to 10s go back to 25s even if they separate lockouts and give better gear to the 25s? I don't know. That's up for them to decide. I know I wouldn't.


If they went to back to the Wrath model you wouldn't just keep Raiding 10's? So because 25's would have better loot drops you would quit? Doesn't seem to jive with your chill attitude.
Edited by Indyana on 1/25/2013 11:59 AM PST
85 Tauren Druid
10075
The only excuse for someone to say 10s are better then 25s is there they're selfish or the computer laggs badly besides that 25 is way more interesting!
90 Tauren Warrior
0
This is also a good idea but still no where near enough. They really need to separate achievements as well (and much more)


So, 25 mans can't survive unless they drop better items, have better achievements, better everything. It can't survive on its own merits.... epicness, prestige, comradery, etc.

Couldn't have made a better argument as to why 25 mans need to disappear myself. Thanks.
85 Tauren Druid
10075
This is also a good idea but still no where near enough. They really need to separate achievements as well (and much more)


So, 25 mans can't survive unless they drop better items, have better achievements, better everything. It can't survive on its own merits.... epicness, prestige, comradery, etc.

Couldn't have made a better argument as to why 25 mans need to disappear myself. Thanks.


Why call it a MMO then?
90 Troll Priest
11525
This is also a good idea but still no where near enough. They really need to separate achievements as well (and much more)


So, 25 mans can't survive unless they drop better items, have better achievements, better everything. It can't survive on its own merits.... epicness, prestige, comradery, etc.

Couldn't have made a better argument as to why 25 mans need to disappear myself. Thanks.


I think that's taking it to the extreme, don't you think?

Players who kill bosses in 25s should have a different recognition than those who kill bosses in 10s. That makes perfect sense. It's two different formats. 25s should not have better item drops or better anything else, just different - something that says: "hey, i killed a boss with 24 other people instead of 9!"
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
This is also a good idea but still no where near enough. They really need to separate achievements as well (and much more)


So, 25 mans can't survive unless they drop better items, have better achievements, better everything. It can't survive on its own merits.... epicness, prestige, comradery, etc.

Couldn't have made a better argument as to why 25 mans need to disappear myself. Thanks.


10's are having a problem getting players because of LFR. So I guess it shows that players prefer playing solo to progress instead of dealing with Guild rules. Let's get rid of 10's.

If Blizzard makes a 5 man Raid size in the next x-pac players will flock there. Easier is not always good for the health of the game. Its odd that the game was at it's peak when there was only 25 man Progression Raiding in TBC.
85 Tauren Druid
10075
This whole thing with thunderforged crap dropping more often in 25s is just going to be a band aid on a bullet wound this isnt going to address or fix anything just piss alot of people off bc 1 week this person for the reg bis item next week the Thunderforged item drops and who you give it to this time same person with higher dps and standing in the guild or the one who dont have it.???? Blizz just please for ths sake of wow make 25s and 10s both doable in the same week and make 25 gear slightly better but not as big a gap as the BC and Vanilla days.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
01/25/2013 10:46 AMPosted by Tectonicbomb


Yes, if certain players can't make it some days we can't do this fight. There's a very high need for a lot of soakers. It's unfortunate shaman's defensive cooldowns are so weak.


Off thread topic: we used Enh shaman on Strengths w/Astral shift soaking every other spark from them, rogue to soak a bunch, hunter, spreist, mage to cover extras. Glyph HST to reduce nature dmg and drop on cd. Disc priest/resto druid healing comop. 12 min fight.


Just astral shift, or astral shift w/ shamanistic rage together?
90 Human Mage
0
January 23rd, 2013
6:00am PST
Location: Blizzard HQ Cafeteria

Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street shuffles into the empty office, his head still fuzzy. The Keurig broke, and without his morning mocha caramel cinnabon latte, it's hard to think clearly. He meanders over to the cereal bar, deciding on what to eat this morning. His heart sinks as he realizes that Dolores, the cafeteria lady, has forgotten to re-stock the Cinammon Toast Crunch - his childhood favorite.

He pours himself a bowl of Alpha-bits, drowns it in milk, and begins to eat while thinking up witty retorts to twitter comments. Suddenly, his stomach begins to churn! He checks the expiration date on the milk, and to his horror, it is over three weeks old. The curdled milk mixes with the half-litre of whiskey that he must consume every night in order to get to sleep, and his innards writhe in pain. The vile concoction makes its way up his esophagus, and spews forth from his mouth all over the table he is sitting at.

Still reeling from the pain, Greg wipes away the snot from his nose and the tears from his eyes. As his vision begins to clear, he looks down at the tabletop and sees a single word floating in what used to be the contents of his stomach...
.
.
.
"Thunderforged"
90 Tauren Warrior
0

You are the first person I have seen in a long time that has argued that having to have X class in a raid is a good thing. That less choice is a GOOD thing. /facepalm


Facepalm back at you. Just make 4 classes then and be done with it. Less choice is a good thing if it promotes interesting mechanics and decisions. The game has devolved where choices mean nothing. It's bad for the game and is reflected in the dying realms.

In Raids of 25 players or higher it was expected that you'd have every class. So that meant the devs could give classes unique and powerful abilities and then tune encounters around those skills.

You're so stuck on the small group model that you can't fathom why that much diversity is good for the game. I'm sorry you can't see beyond your own desires. A game with 33 specs but only 10 Raid slots is snooze inducing due to the need to spread class abilities around for fairness.


And right back at you with "you can't see beyond your own desires". Can you even see the irony enough to appreciate it? You brought up before that some things are "good for the game" or "bad for the game" as if it doesn't matter what the people think of the game, only that "the game" is "awesome" by some arbitrary standard that most people do not hold. Sounds like the attitude at the academy awards "ya, this movie bombed at the box office, but it was so well done!"

How awesome is a game if the people can't even play it? Trying to get into or run a 40/25 man guild/raid was a nightmare for most people. Getting denied entry to a guild, despite your skill because "need ranged dps". Getting denied a spot because "need a shaman healer". Or getting sidebarred for a fight because "need a demo warlock".

I could go on and on about all the crap that went on in vanilla in BC but it would be a waste of time. Take off the rose colored glasses that have been hot glued to your face. Vanilla and BC and raiding wasn't that great the majority of the players didn't raid, not because they didn't want to...but because they were denied through the million+1 reasons to make it so they couldn't raid.
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