10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Gnome Priest
17660


So, 25 mans can't survive unless they drop better items, have better achievements, better everything. It can't survive on its own merits.... epicness, prestige, comradery, etc.

Couldn't have made a better argument as to why 25 mans need to disappear myself. Thanks.


Why call it a MMO then?

How is 10man raiding any less MMO than 25man?
90 Draenei Shaman
11125
Massive Multiplayer Online

Is 10 massive?
90 Tauren Warrior
0
10's are having a problem getting players because of LFR. So I guess it shows that players prefer playing solo to progress instead of dealing with Guild rules. Let's get rid of 10's.


First time I've heard that one. Sounds like a specious argument.
85 Goblin Shaman
4020
The debate over 10v25 is mostly useless and cant be solved with the current partisanship on the forums. However this move at best is not going to impact the raiding situation for 25 mans, but could hurt 10 mans by stealing 10 man raiders and having them go to 25 mans.

If you want to really deal with this situation I would recommend the following:

1. Combine the server groups into mega servers to increase the recruitment pool for 10 and 25 mans. The tech is already in place with CRZ to facilitate this move.

2. if not #1 then you could make it so you can transfer your entire stable of toons with a single fee, and thus facilitating mobility.

3. Modify the current recruitment forums system by creating an app that allows people to easily filter such things as class/gear requirements, raid times and other expectations. Make it so that people can easily match their current goals with guilds who are looking for them and everyone can win.

4. Allow cross realm raiding and guesting. This would have the same impact as #1 while allowing people to trial without penalties.

The reality is that this move doesn't actually deal with the real issues of 25 man raiding. It rewards everyone for the work of a few, while giving only a token advantage over doing the same content with less stress and work for the few. I see the only way for this to work out 25 man groups will have to cannibalise 10 man groups to make the life of the few easier, while this might help the few in 25 mans it hurts all the 10 man groups.

The only solutions are to make recruiting easier through freedom of movement and thus making it easier to match raids with potential raiders, to create a system where someone can try out a raid/guild without moving and wasting money, and creating an app to match raids with potential recruits.
Edited by Apparatchik on 1/25/2013 12:23 PM PST
90 Tauren Warrior
0
Massive Multiplayer Online

Is 10 massive?


Is 25 massive? Not really. And especially compared to how many are on a server at any given time.

Instanced content says hi. Outside the instances, its an MMO by your definition.
90 Human Warrior
7855
01/25/2013 12:16 PMPosted by Herethebeef
10's are having a problem getting players because of LFR. So I guess it shows that players prefer playing solo to progress instead of dealing with Guild rules. Let's get rid of 10's.


First time I've heard that one. Sounds like a specious argument.


Actually it shows that players will take the path of least resistance to the greatest reward they can get with the least amount of effort. That is all it shows, that an how cliquish 10 mans are. Even 15 is at most 2 cliques but is still a better option than 10 and the minimum for a middle ground.

Actually if they really wanted to revolutionize WoW to Rift world events they would make raids scale-able from 5 - 40man with no preset (x)man size and be done with the whole mess. how you scale loot and such would be a different matter.
90 Undead Priest
16470
01/25/2013 12:10 PMPosted by Herethebeef
because they were denied through the million+1 reasons to make it so they couldn't raid.


Now instead of being denied raiding they are being offered little-to-no reason to raid and too high of an entry to raid.
90 Tauren Warrior
0
Actually it shows that players will take the path of least resistance to the greatest reward they can get with the least amount of effort. That is all it shows, that an how cliquish 10 mans are. Even 15 is at most 2 cliques but is still a better option than 10 and the minimum for a middle ground.


And that proves how people prefer 25 mans is bunk. Because ask any 25 raider why they do 25 mans and they will give you a bunch of reasons. The most common being "the epicness" or "the prestige". Yet 25 mans are still in decline and 10 mans were so successful, even in wrath with inferior loot. People don't care about the loot, or the "prestige", or think that a 10 man raid is any less epic than a 25 man raid. They care about *gasp* fun. 10 mans are simply more fun to a lot of people. Less logistics, less drama...less a lot of stuff. And any increase in fun that someone might get from 25 man, is not worth the headache. And improved anything in 25 mans, wont stop their decline.
90 Tauren Warrior
0
01/25/2013 12:24 PMPosted by Poena
because they were denied through the million+1 reasons to make it so they couldn't raid.


Now instead of being denied raiding they are being offered little-to-no reason to raid and too high of an entry to raid.


Your argument makes zero sense.
90 Gnome Priest
17660
Massive Multiplayer Online

Is 10 massive?

Is 25? Neither are.

And the game isn't Massive Multiplayer Raiding Online. The majority of players will never set foot inside a raid.

For all the 25man lovers would love to see 10man raiding tossed in a trash can to force players back into 25, it would just cause that many more players to quit raiding altogether and many of those would stop playing WoW. It won't solve anything for 25mans because the problem with 25mans has always been the same - the players. Until players fix themselves, nothing will change.

And chances are, most of the players don't need to be fixed. They know what they like and are doing that. The ones who need to be fixed are the ones who think that their way is only way and Blizzard needs to scrap the rest.

But then you don't care as long as you get what you want.
90 Orc Shaman
13505

10s also suffer recruitment woes. 25s are surely at a disadvantage, no one disagrees with that. But the available tools to help with recruitment are pretty narrow to non-existent. Using incentives to encourage one format or the other will always create an imbalance which isn't good for anyone.

This isn't a 10v25 problem. The problem is that, if both formats are otherwise equal, and 10s are easier to manage, 10s will have a stronger life. The answer is to actually develop tools that help 25s organize and recruit. Adding a new loot type only serves to add yet another thing for 25 raid leaders to manage.

If the only solution you can propose is to kill 10 mans, you're arguing in the face of something many, many people enjoy and isn't something Blizzard wants to do, either. Of course, this Thunderforged loot begs the question of what their actual objectives are, but it does not seem killing one format or the other is one of them.


True, bascically true, and very true. Ideas to make 25 more manageable: Consuming a flask in 25man double duration and only if instanced when consumed (fewer flasks needed), increased flask/food effectivess if the raid is short players, food buff that persists thru death with a 3-4hr duration and only while in the raid, portable anvil not attached to a mount are just a few. All of them attached to a meta guild achv that must be maintained so not abused. Heck, make em really happy and toss in a cool mount useable while the guild holds the meta achv too.
90 Night Elf Warrior
10970
And that proves how people prefer 25 mans is bunk. Because ask any 25 raider why they do 25 mans and they will give you a bunch of reasons. The most common being "the epicness" or "the prestige". Yet 25 mans are still in decline and 10 mans were so successful, even in wrath with inferior loot. People don't care about the loot, or the "prestige", or think that a 10 man raid is any less epic than a 25 man raid. They care about *gasp* fun. 10 mans are simply more fun to a lot of people. Less logistics, less drama...less a lot of stuff. And any increase in fun that someone might get from 25 man, is not worth the headache. And improved anything in 25 mans, wont stop their decline.


Please. You are completely wrong, how many 10mans guilds were they really in ICC? Because your so* successful 10man in ICC* only existed because they were alt runs by 25man guilds, I didnt even know any 10man guilds on all 4 of the servers ive been in Wrath that were PURE 10man just playing for progression with the gears they had.
90 Gnome Priest
17660
01/25/2013 12:16 PMPosted by Herethebeef
10's are having a problem getting players because of LFR. So I guess it shows that players prefer playing solo to progress instead of dealing with Guild rules. Let's get rid of 10's.


First time I've heard that one. Sounds like a specious argument.

I'm trying to recruit for my 10man guild right now because our progress is getting stalled every time we have someone fail to show for the night. We've gotten no serious responses in a week of recruiting, just a drunk monk (serious about that, the guy was obviously drunk when I was talking to him in vent).

LFR has become the easy road to loot. They can just pop into LFR and get their chance at almost the exact same loot. They can go into LFR and get their legendary gems and extra sockets. They only have to devote 2 hours plus queue wait time to kill all 16 bosses plus they can just facesmash their keyboard and no one will really care.

Why should players bother joining a raid group and raid on someone else's schedule, meet someone else's standard of performance? Most raid groups are running 6+ hour schedules a week. They pay attention to the DPS/HPS you do. They pay attention when you consistently stand in fire, or don't clear your stacks. There is accountability in normal/heroic raid groups that is completely missing from LFR.

So while 25man raiders claim people only raid 10mans for the convenience (which is not true of all 10man raiders), the truth is those only out for convenience are actually just running LFR now. Those who like 25man raiding raid 25s unless their server doesn't have the pop to support large raid guilds (like my server). Those who like 10man raiding are raiding in 10man. And both 10 and 25 are having one heck of a time trying to find new raiders to recruit.
90 Orc Shaman
13505
01/25/2013 11:55 AMPosted by Jazenfek
The only excuse for someone to say 10s are better then 25s is there they're selfish or the computer laggs badly besides that 25 is way more interesting!


Obviously you're free to express your opinion. But that's all this is, opinion. There is no way to conclude that 10man players are selfish, my computer is fine, and I find 10man way more interesting because we have to rely on one another more. I've provided many useful benefits that would not apply to me or my guild, that's hardly selfish. I'd propose that desiring better loot for killing the same tuned boss would qualify as being more selfish than my proposals.
90 Orc Shaman
13505
Massive Multiplayer Online

Is 10 massive?


Pretty sure MMO doesn't refer to the size of raid groups. No, yeah, i'm positive is has something to do with being part of the game as entirety or at least on a realm level.
90 Gnome Priest
17660
01/25/2013 12:43 PMPosted by Narph
And that proves how people prefer 25 mans is bunk. Because ask any 25 raider why they do 25 mans and they will give you a bunch of reasons. The most common being "the epicness" or "the prestige". Yet 25 mans are still in decline and 10 mans were so successful, even in wrath with inferior loot. People don't care about the loot, or the "prestige", or think that a 10 man raid is any less epic than a 25 man raid. They care about *gasp* fun. 10 mans are simply more fun to a lot of people. Less logistics, less drama...less a lot of stuff. And any increase in fun that someone might get from 25 man, is not worth the headache. And improved anything in 25 mans, wont stop their decline.


Please. You are completely wrong, how many 10mans guilds were they really in ICC? Because your so* successful 10man in ICC* only existed because they were alt runs by 25man guilds, I didnt even know any 10man guilds on all 4 of the servers ive been in Wrath that were PURE 10man just playing for progression with the gears they had.

By the time the last nerfs went into place in ICC, our server had 10-12 strict 10man guilds running. They did not pug into 25man groups, they did not use 25man gear. There were several other 10 man guilds that weren't strict that would pug into 25mans on top of running 10s. I was in two different 10 man guilds for most of Wrath, was part of a 25man guild for half of ICC, then left it and went back to 10s. I have no desire to return to 25man.

You probably didn't notice all the 10man guilds out there because you turn your nose up at the "lesser" guilds but they did exist. And at least on our server, the best players were actually in them because they could be selective about who was made a part of the core group without having to find a bunch of filler just to get to 25.
90 Undead Priest
14805
Massive Multiplayer Online

Is 10 massive?

Is 25? Neither are.

And the game isn't Massive Multiplayer Raiding Online. The majority of players will never set foot inside a raid.

For all the 25man lovers would love to see 10man raiding tossed in a trash can to force players back into 25, it would just cause that many more players to quit raiding altogether and many of those would stop playing WoW. It won't solve anything for 25mans because the problem with 25mans has always been the same - the players. Until players fix themselves, nothing will change.

And chances are, most of the players don't need to be fixed. They know what they like and are doing that. The ones who need to be fixed are the ones who think that their way is only way and Blizzard needs to scrap the rest.

But then you don't care as long as you get what you want.


25 isn't massive but it is much large than the alternative. So it's at least going the correct direction.

The only problem with people is most don't see themselves as a problem. Look at those dumb Bayer Aspirin commercials. "I randomly had a heart attack so I now do all these things to stop it" Well, maybe you should have not been a huge waste of space before hand and it wouldn't have happened.

People sometimes need a punch in the face to wake up before they truly realize their own problems.

While I would prefer 25s being the only raiding style, I don't see that as a real option. I love this game and want to continue playing but the way it's going is going to prevent that for me. I will be in a grave before I take up 10man raiding as my primary raiding. I don't view it as enjoyable in the least and will sooner quit than do it full time.

That being said, those two options are becoming my only choices. My guild is in bad shape right now, we are on a dying server, on the dying faction with a dying guild. We've been trying to save it for months now without getting in a single new person minus 2 friends of current guildies.

So I can either accept my guilds death, do 10s, transfer and leave all my friends behind or come here and try to advocate for changes big enough to fix our problems. Of those, it's an easy choice for me. For my guild, and guilds like mine, to go on living, we need MAJOR changes. A random item that we might get more of than 10s, which doesn't always happen according to Bash, it's even in the same ballpark as what is needed.

Blizzard's head is in the right place though. Most players value loot over anything else and players is the problem facing 25mans. While getting those players is a logistical issue, it is still the players choice to come. So getting perks for those putting in the work is nice and all, it would do nothing to make new players choose our format. That's why loot is their direction. The work isn't going to be rewarded by the officer/gm and that is fine as long as the players are rewarded for doing our size.
90 Tauren Warrior
0
Please. You are completely wrong, how many 10mans guilds were they really in ICC? Because your so* successful 10man in ICC* only existed because they were alt runs by 25man guilds, I didnt even know any 10man guilds on all 4 of the servers ive been in Wrath that were PURE 10man just playing for progression with the gears they had.


Ah, clearly I am wrong because your anecdotal evidence clashes with mine. And your wording is very telling... "Wrath that were PURE 10man just playing for progression with the gears they had." Automatically discounting anyone who ever stepped foot in a 25 man raid and got loot from it ever. And I know what you are getting at, cause I did it. In our guild we did a 25 man lol run that never got past putricide, but we had a 10 man group that I was in that was for progression.

We only did the 25 man run for the better loot. Which really hurts your side, the only reason a lot of people did 25 man was for the better loot. And once the better loot was taken away, their true colors appeared. No longer was it about "epic battles" or "prestige" it was all about the professor plumbs all along. Hence the even more rapid decline in 25 man raiding during cata than in wrath.

01/25/2013 01:00 PMPosted by Joynal
You probably didn't notice all the 10man guilds out there because you turn your nose up at the "lesser" guilds but they did exist. And at least on our server, the best players were actually in them because they could be selective about who was made a part of the core group without having to find a bunch of filler just to get to 25.

^this
Edited by Herethebeef on 1/25/2013 1:02 PM PST
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