10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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88 Gnome Warrior
13100
How about this:

Instead of the proposed system, the new thunderforged items are then changed from a slightly higher ilvl item to a stone similar to the firestone was in Firelands. Then, when you add the stone to an item, it changes the upgradability (do you like that word?) from 0/2 to 1/3. In other words, it makes the item three upgrade tiers rather than just 2. In addition, it gives you the first tier automatically. Additional stones would do nothing to the current item.

Also, make items such as tier pieces upgradable via this method too.
MVP - World of Warcraft
100 Night Elf Druid
14910


The logistic challenges of running a 25 man lies on the shoulders of a selected few -- aka the guild management, the officers, guild master, raid leader. This is usually 4-5 people in a raid of 25.

So, why should all 25 get the benefit of juiced up loot for the sacrifice and hard work of a select few? Is Blizzard indicating that the guild management master loot these items to themselves as reward for shouldering the burden of management nightmare they have created?

How does the loot changes alleviate the logistic challenges managed by the guild management?


The logistic things I've talked about for 25s include difficulty of recruitment. Rewards that benefit the whole 25-man will potentially improve recruitment. That has the indirect reward to the officers of having to spend less time trolling trade chat for potential recruits and more time playing the game. Anything that makes it easier to form a new 25-man raid will increase the probability that officers will be able to form new 25-man raids. It's all a problem of psychological motivation.
Edited by Lissanna on 1/25/2013 7:07 PM PST
90 Pandaren Warrior
16560
01/25/2013 07:04 PMPosted by Lissanna
The logistic things I've talked about for 25s include difficulty of recruitment. Rewards that benefit the whole 25-man will potentially improve recruitment. That has the indirect reward to the officers of having to spend less time trolling trade chat for potential recruits and more time playing the game. Anything that makes it easier to form a new 25-man raid will increase the probability that officers will be able to form new 25-man raids. It's all a problem of psychological motivation.


That type of motivation mainly attracts one type of player.
Back in the day when I was hard core raiding and a co-GM, we had a rather unflattering name for them. Loot ******.

So if you want more drama, more guilds breaking apart, arguments over looting, and general nastiness. By all means this solution must look like it was handed down by the Titans.
90 Undead Priest
14805
01/25/2013 07:44 PMPosted by Dorrell
The logistic things I've talked about for 25s include difficulty of recruitment. Rewards that benefit the whole 25-man will potentially improve recruitment. That has the indirect reward to the officers of having to spend less time trolling trade chat for potential recruits and more time playing the game. Anything that makes it easier to form a new 25-man raid will increase the probability that officers will be able to form new 25-man raids. It's all a problem of psychological motivation.


That type of motivation mainly attracts one type of player.
Back in the day when I was hard core raiding and a co-GM, we had a rather unflattering name for them. Loot ******.

So if you want more drama, more guilds breaking apart, arguments over looting, and general nastiness. By all means this solution must look like it was handed down by the Titans.


I would rather weed through loot !@#$%s and drama queens then just accept my guilds death.
26 Worgen Rogue
10635
01/23/2013 02:55 PMPosted by Crithto
Getting better loot has always been a part of this game and in Patch 5.2 the variety is being increased. We think this is a good thing. However, calling 25-player raids less favorable is unfounded and an unfair assessment. Tons of players would love to do 25s, but the coordination and effort to do so is more difficult with very little additional reward. 10s aren't more popular because the entire community agreed they're more fun, it's just a simple case of effort versus reward.


I know this point has been beat to death already, but if I can make another stab...

While I happen to play WoW pretty much exclusively when compared to other video games, I get to watch my son play SCII, WarIII, Minecraft, Little Big Planet, and Several racing games. Very few of those games offer anything that would be compared to loot. At best, you could compare most to vanity items and achievements. And even while he receives no loot, he still continues to play all his favorite games. The reason he does boils down to the simple fact that he "enjoys" them.

When we contrast 10 vs 25 format the same principle applies. When presented with two equal options players enjoy the 10 man format better. Call it what ever you like, ie. convenience, laziness, etc, it really doesn't matter. What does matter is that when they are given a unstrung choice, the choice is clear.

The message that was received in Wrath, and now again with the increasingly easier path to character progression via 25 man raiding is "25 man raiding players are greater, while 10 man raiding players are lesser". I know that's not Blizzard's intent, I really do, nevertheless that's the message that is received.

On top of that, what ends up happening is that more players are incentivized into running a format that they don't find as fun, which results in them getting burnt out quicker.

A player or group of players that truly enjoy 25 man raiding will do 25 man raiding. The "reward" for running the more difficult to coordinate format is the pleasure of running the more complex format. It's self fulfilling. When you present a bunch of competitive players with the option of "play how you don't want to be more competitive" or "Play want you do want and be left behind", they will - to some degree - play how they don't want, because one of their goals is to remain competitive. The danger you run into is when these players wake up one day and realize they aren't having fun and have only been playing for the sake of playing. That's when they look for fun elsewhere.

The main thing as a company to be careful of is not trying to shoehorn players into playing something YOU find fun. Or that a vocal minority finds fun. Discover what the community in large finds fun and what they gravitate towards and build on that. You'll end up with happier players.
90 Pandaren Shaman
14370
01/25/2013 09:47 PMPosted by Psynister
When presented with two equal options

vs.
01/25/2013 09:47 PMPosted by Psynister
The "reward" for running the more difficult to coordinate format is the pleasure of running the more complex format.


You said it yourself - the options are not equal. There is a natural flow of people from 25's to 10's that has nothing to do with 10's being more enjoyable - every time a 25m guild dies, it's very easy to create a 10m guild in its place. You'll typically have a core of people that enjoy raiding together, and it isn't feasible for them to expect to all join another 25m guild (unless said guild isn't in a healthy position, which detracts from the desire to join them).

On the other side of the coin, it is practically impossible for a 25m guild to be formed in the aftermath of a 10m guild's death. It's also incredibly difficult to turn a 10m guild into a 25m guild, because you won't have room to fit any of your new recruits into a raid until you actually get enough to field a 2nd 10m, at the earliest.

As a result, there has to be incentives to encourage the formation of 25m guilds - at least enough so that it cancels out the natural movement of people who are forced to drop from 25's to 10's due entirely to circumstance instead of out of a desire to raid in the smaller format. This is the only way for the formats to maintain a healthy balance in the long term. The alternative is that 25's will die out, even if a substantial portion of people that are currently stuck in 10's would rather be raiding in 25's.

Are thunderforged items the correct incentive? No. Unless the drop rate is significantly higher in 25's, it won't even register as a noticeable shift from the status quo, because 25's already receive more loot-per-person than 10's. Pending additional information, it sounds like it will hurt more than help due to the added loot drama (a better way to implement the same system would be to drop a currency/material item (e.g. crystallized thunderstones) that can be used to upgrade an item to thunderforged status - this will eliminate the drama you'd otherwise see when awarding a person with a thunderforged item after they already have the regular version of the same item) and the headache involved in rotating people in and out when they're less inclined to volunteer to sit for farm content.
Edited by Purge on 1/25/2013 10:15 PM PST
90 Undead Priest
14805
01/25/2013 09:47 PMPosted by Psynister
The main thing as a company to be careful of is not trying to shoehorn players into playing something YOU find fun. Or that a vocal minority finds fun. Discover what the community in large finds fun and what they gravitate towards and build on that. You'll end up with happier players.


I think that's what they are trying to do. Vanilla, TBC and Wrath were all 25man having the advantage so there wasn't really an option for most. Cata and so far in MoP 10mans have the advantage. There hasn't been a time in which the formats are as close to equal as possible to find out what players really do want. I think this is a step to find that balance so Blizzard will know where people truly stand.
90 Worgen Druid
17805
01/25/2013 03:27 PMPosted by Fayenoor
Also, this is not a discussion abt relative difficulties of two formats. This thread is more about how to resurrect one format (which is already on life support) without hurting or killing off the other.

I'm convinced at this point it's one or the other. They make 25s the premier tier or they just give up and let 25s slowly die off. (25s, imo, will never completely die off, they will just slowly become less popular)

01/25/2013 10:07 PMPosted by Purge
Are thunderforged items the correct incentive? No. Unless the drop rate is significantly higher in 25's, it won't even register as a noticeable shift from the status quo, because 25's already receive more loot-per-person than 10's

Even if the drop rate were significantly higher it won't change anything.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
16080
looking a the things that changed between the start of wrath to end of cata

ilvl, lockouts and achievements for both were combined

loot drops were changed to fit the raid size more.

heroic and hard modes added.

LFR added.

the major issues is making 25 man worth doing over just doing 10 mans for the ppl that want to do 25 mans without making the ppl doing 10 mans feel like they need to do 25 mans.
splitting the achievements again i think would help with this.
this could bring back server first 25 man kills on bosses and maybe just some different titles and/or mounts for doing it in 25 man again.

special items like legendary quest item, epic gems and mounts having more of a chance to drop in 25 mans could help as well.
these add something that happens in tens as well but this makes getting it in 25 man a little easier since there are more ppl in those raids to get them for.

the item grade is just one thing that can happen to make building 25s again worth it and for new ones to start up again or as it was in BC and beginning of wrath, two 10 man guilds coming together to do 25s for the bonus or to just be able to do the raids(BC).

not saying stay a 25 but i remember having to work with other guilds to get things done before without having to be come one guild so it is not that bad if blizzard might make some 10s come together when they have things on farm to get some farm upgrades from 25 man visa the thunderforged drops.

however as i and others have said i think the Thunderforged upgrade should drop item to upgrade items you already have and not just an upgraded item.
Edited by Forgedlotus on 1/25/2013 11:05 PM PST
26 Worgen Rogue
10635
01/25/2013 10:07 PMPosted by Purge
You said it yourself - the options are not equal. There is a natural flow of people from 25's to 10's that has nothing to do with 10's being more enjoyable - every time a 25m guild dies, it's very easy to create a 10m guild in its place. You'll typically have a core of people that enjoy raiding together, and it isn't feasible for them to expect to all join another 25m guild (unless said guild isn't in a healthy position, which detracts from the desire to join them).


They don't have to be equal. I don't play games because they are equally rewarding as every other game I've played. I've played solitaire which is mind numblingly easy and I've played chess against very seasoned players which is very mentally taxing. In both cases the reward I got was the same. The enjoyment of playing. I could see where if I didn't want to play chess anymore but someone offered me a cookie every time I played it instead of solitaire I very likely might play chess more. That doesn't mean I would enjoy it anymore and there would come a time that despite the cookies filling my belly, I would get absolutely sick of chess regardless of how much I was bribed. At the point when you are playing a game specifically to earn the incentive, the game becomes a job.

01/25/2013 10:07 PMPosted by Purge
On the other side of the coin, it is practically impossible for a 25m guild to be formed in the aftermath of a 10m guild's death. It's also incredibly difficult to turn a 10m guild into a 25m guild, because you won't have room to fit any of your new recruits into a raid until you actually get enough to field a 2nd 10m, at the earliest.

I do understand this, but I think the reason is because of the lack of interest in the format. There are players that enjoy that format more, but not enough..or not enough per server...or not enough per server -> per player schedule.

The answer is to get all players that enjoy 25 mans onto the same servers so that they can find guilds that can raid on the players schedule. This would mean server combines and free transfers. Blizzard refuses to do that however, so we are stuck with dead servers and players with like interests that don't have the ability to link up.

*addendum

Answer me this. If there were 50 players on your server out of the thousands, who truly enjoyed 25 man raid format over 10 man raid format, are you honestly telling me that those 50 players who prefer to play 25 man would absolutely refuse to run 25 mans unless Blizzard gives them free gear regardless of the fact that they all prefer to play in bigger raids?
Edited by Psynister on 1/25/2013 11:19 PM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
0
1. Combine the server groups into mega servers to increase the recruitment pool for 10 and 25 mans. The tech is already in place with CRZ to facilitate this move.

2. if not #1 then you could make it so you can transfer your entire stable of toons with a single fee, and thus facilitating mobility.

3. Modify the current recruitment forums system by creating an app that allows people to easily filter such things as class/gear requirements, raid times and other expectations. Make it so that people can easily match their current goals with guilds who are looking for them and everyone can win.

4. Allow cross realm raiding and guesting. This would have the same impact as #1 while allowing people to trial without penalties.


These are all great ideas that have been brought up before and never been addressed by Blizzard. Why has Blizzard never addressed free realm transfers.. because of money. Why havenèt they created good filter tools for finding a guild that suits needs.. I have no idea, they never seem to create or refine tools that would make the game better. Look at the looking for guild tool, or the looking for raid tool; all tools blizzard creates are garbage that get no revisions.
100 Pandaren Rogue
10000
01/25/2013 05:29 AMPosted by Mandek
Maybe something like guild repairs are 5% cheaper if you are in a 25 man raid. Or durability loss is 1% less in 25 man settings. Something where you have to be in the 25 man raid to take advantage of. Just brainstorming.


Because gold is hard to make amirite?

Solution is simple.. back to ICC type loot ilevels or make Thunderforged drop in 25 mans only.
26 Worgen Rogue
10635
Also to note some irony. When Blizzard makes changes that allow casual players more access to loot, there tends to be an outcry of hyperbole regarding free loot and players not earning it, etc, etc. Now when it comes to running 25 man format, Blizzard offers the carrot of "extra free loot" if you run this format and the 25 man players seem fine with it. The counter hyperbole being that 25 man raiders expect an epic in their mailbox when they log in on Tuesday simply for being a 25 man raider due to the efforts of the few officers that coordinate the raid.
90 Pandaren Shaman
14370
01/25/2013 11:10 PMPosted by Psynister
They don't have to be equal.

Yes they do (if you want the argument you laid out in your initial post to hold, at least). You're citing the migration of people from 25's to 10's as evidence that 10's are the preferred format, when there's no reason to assume that.

I do understand this, but I think the reason is because of the lack of interest in the format. There are players that enjoy that format more, but not enough..or not enough per server...or not enough per server -> per player schedule.

The answer is to get all players that enjoy 25 mans onto the same servers so that they can find guilds that can raid on the players schedule. This would mean server combines and free transfers. Blizzard refuses to do that however, so we are stuck with dead servers and players with like interests that don't have the ability to link up.

Just because the interest doesn't outweigh the structural disadvantages imposed against the formation of 25's doesn't mean there's no interest at all.

There are plenty of people who are stuck doing 10m's when they'd rather be doing 25's, either because their server is dead and there are no 25m options, or because they're raiding with friends in the corpse of a former 25m guild. It isn't feasible to convert a 10m guild back into a 25m guild for most people, and it isn't feasible to expect a healthy 25m guild to be able to absorb 8-12 people all at once. That leaves 10m as their only realistic option (short of going their separate ways, at least).

01/25/2013 11:10 PMPosted by Psynister
Answer me this. If there were 50 players on your server out of the thousands, who truly enjoyed 25 man raid format over 10 man raid format, are you honestly telling me that those 50 players who prefer to play 25 man would absolutely refuse to run 25 mans unless Blizzard gives them free gear regardless of the fact that they all prefer to play in bigger raids?

I already said the Thunderforged proposal was a terrible solution, so I'm not sure what you're going for here. At the end of the day, there are three potential solutions to the problem:

1. Remove one of the formats. Not even going to really entertain this, so let's skip to the next one.

2. Remove the structural barriers that stand in the way of the creation of new 25m guilds. This can be anything ranging from cross-realm guilds to scalable raid sizes (i.e. any amount of people between 10 and 25 will work in the raid - the bosses will dynamically scale up or down to match what you throw at them). This is obviously the best solution, but it's obviously one that Blizzard doesn't seem willing to commit to. As a result, that leaves option 3...

3. Incentivize 25-mans. I don't think Thunderforged items are the right incentive, but if they're not going to do #2, then some form of incentive is necessary to act as a counterweight against the natural flow of people from 25's to 10's that happens every time a 25m guild dies. The trick is obviously to make the incentive appealing enough so that there isn't any net flow between 10's and 25's (otherwise, it'll merely be a pendulum swing in the other direction). Again, I don't particularly care for this method, but I don't see #1 as much of an option at all, and it's the only realistic alternative I can see to #2.
Edited by Purge on 1/25/2013 11:54 PM PST
90 Draenei Shaman
13805
10m orbs were much closer together. Now, 10m Hagara is generally accepted to have been more difficult on Heroic, but so what? Yorsahj and Ultraxion were more difficult on 25m Heroic. Ultraxion even had a death mechanic, so by your logic 10m Ultraxion should have been much harder because if 1 person screwed it up then it meant more.

Normal mode.. if you were having trouble with normal mode, I don't what to tell you.

My point was that 10m Hagara was more difficult on heroic, which directly contradicts the statement that 25m are just as difficult as 10m. I don't know why you think Heroic Yorsahj and Ultraxion were more difficult on 25m. If you could elaborate on that opinion I could be persuaded to concede that. Obviously I wasn't talking about normal mode. The pylons hardly do any damage in normal mode. Everyone just formed a conga line and danced around the platform for a few seconds.
26 Worgen Rogue
10635
Just because the interest doesn't outweigh the structural disadvantages imposed against the formation of 25's doesn't mean there's no interest at all.

There are plenty of people who are stuck doing 10m's when they'd rather be doing 25's, either because their server is dead and there are no 25m options, or because they're raiding with friends in the corpse of a former 25m guild. It isn't feasible to convert a 10m guild back into a 25m guild for most people, and it isn't feasible to expect a healthy 25m guild to be able to absorb 8-12 people all at once. That leaves 10m as their only realistic option (short of going their separate ways, at least).


I didn't say there wasn't any interest, I said there wasn't enough. I mirrored much of what you said. The two reasons I don't like the incentive method is that when you give extra rewards for one format you are making a clear statement that 'that' format is superior. As far as the people stuck doing 10s, they are stuck because they can't find 24 other like minded individuals. The only way for them to get 24 other players is either to shut the 10 man door, as you noted, which won't happen - or you bribe the players who prefer 10 mans to run the format they don't like as much, which is the 2nd reason I don't care for the incentive option. Players feeling like they have to run the format they don't like.

I completely get it that there are plenty of people out there who enjoy 25 mans. The barrier isn't incentives. The incentive is running the 25 man. We already know if there was a 25 man and a 10 man guild that were both one person short, the person who prefers 25 mans would join the 25 man guild in a heartbeat even with no extra rewards over the 10 man. The problem is getting all these 25 man raiders together in one place. You've noted as much and others have said it. To be honest, I think you and I agree a lot more then we disagree on this topic.
Edited by Psynister on 1/26/2013 2:16 AM PST
90 Gnome Mage
18555
Hopefully this thread is being read in its entirety by the devs.

My history: raid leader/guild leader of a "hardcore casual" guild since Vanilla. We're typically about server 3rd. We're not super harcore, but we're not LFR-loving Cata-babies either. Right now we're 11/16H.

There's a ton of argument of 10's vs 25's, but most people seem to agree that RANDOM upgrades on RANDOM pieces of gear are too RANDOM . Please make the system less RANDOM . I think "Crystallized Thunderstones" for all off-pieces would be a much better solution. If that's too predictable, then add different classes of "Thunderstones" which operate on different armor slots or armor types. But please, don't make individual items Thunderforged. The RNG of Thunderforged items will add so much frustration to loot that no one will enjoy it.

As someone who handled loot distribution in 40-man and 25-man raids for several years, I can say conclusively that handling the distribution of very rare items is one of the greatest sources of guild drama because there are many losers and it brings extra focus to the method of loot distribution (DKP, Loot Council, whatever). As has been discussed extensively, the challenge of 25 man raiding is the logistical nightmare borne by the officers and this type of loot system will only accelerate the dissolution of shaky 25 man guilds by creating additional loot drama where none need exist. Further, it will make "loot rotation" for backup/substitute players (needed for any stable guild) much more difficult because no one will want to miss the uber-rare chance at their BiS item dropping. A much more stable solution would be to add the same effective ilvl advantage with less RNG if you really want to make 25's more appealing. Super rare loot will only hurt 25M guilds in the long run.

Realistically though, the way to make 25-player raids more popular is to make them easier to manage logistically. The logistical burden is borne by the leaders and the way to make 25's more popular is ultimately to make them easier to lead. Recruitment is the #1 challenge of Leaders and the current mechanisms for finding new players for your raid is extremely time consuming, making Leading very undesirable. Add tools to the forums to help people find guilds which have compatible raid times and expectations and allow them to transfer ALL of their characters to that realm for a reasonable price.

In conclusion, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't implement Thunderforged items in the current implementation. We need less, not more, RNG in loot.
Edited by Minimerlinx on 1/26/2013 2:56 AM PST
26 Worgen Rogue
10635
Realistically though, the way to make 25-player raids more popular is to make them easier to manage logistically. The logistical burden is borne by the leaders and the way to make 25's more popular is ultimately to make them easier to lead. Recruitment is the #1 challenge of Leaders and the current mechanisms for finding new players for your raid is extremely time consuming, making Leading very undesirable. Add tools to the forums to help people find guilds which have compatible raid times and expectations and allow them to transfer ALL of their characters to that realm for a reasonable price.


I wanted to highlight this, as it my personal opinion that this is the probably the biggest factor in why 25 man guilds don't keep popping up.

In my own personal bubble, I've never seen a 10 man raid leader log in one day and say they needed to take a break. I have seen that multiple times from the few 25 man guilds I've been in over the years.

Overall a very good post Minimerlinx. I think you hit the nail on the head.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
16020


Why did 10 mans need the incentive of having the same loot as 25 mans back in Cata? Blizzard should have just eliminated 10 mans back then and then this problem would have never existed.

People didnt prefer 10 mans back in wrath. Stop making up lies to try and support 10 mans.

How many 25 man raider have you seen say they think this idea will work? It wont work. The reason why is thfe elite 25 man guilds will not be effected but now with the added upgrade its just going to make more 25 man guilds disband quicker.

The main reason 25 mans are dying is because in th eearly going they gear up quicker than 10 mans because its most likely the loot can be used and most of the time it will go to whos more liked in the guild or the better players. Now with the thunder version it will even make a bigger difference between the players and that means 10 of them will get better gear faster and then when they hit a boss that the enrage timer is getting them they will look at the lower players (that didnt get the gear) and say they are not pulling their wait and be like you guys suck, were going 10 mans and then when they do they kill more bosses because 10 mans are basically easier than 25 mans.

Thats the problem 10 players can gear up faster in 25 mans and then drop down to 10 mans to kill bosses easier. That kills 25 mans and just makes the 10 think they are better than they are.

Right now its hard to get into a 25 man because there are not many of them. You get in one and then they dont have enough people and they go back to 10 mans because they dont want to deal with waiting. So you try again and the same thing happens.

This change they are doing will not help 25 mans at all. It will though give the 10 mans more ammo to get content nerfed though. Those top 100 guilds since vanilla are killing bosses faster than 10 man guilds are, thats unfair 10 mans are too hard. NERF NERF 10 mans NOW. Thats the only thing this change will do.


You cannot say no one like 10s in Wrath. My guild was one that preferred the 10 man format of Kara/ZA in TBC and when they announced the two size format for all raids we knew we were going to have 2-3+ 10 man groups instead of running 25s. This is from a group of friends who raided in EQ and 40s. So you cannot say that everyone who ran 0ss didn't like them. I am sure there are plenty more out there in the same situation.

If 25 mans we so much better, and yes the overwhelming thought besides the better loot in WotLK, was the it was more epic, being part of a larger group made it so much better than 10s. But we don't raid 25s for loot we raid for the experience. This was the war cry of the 25 man raider when Blizzard threw out the shared lockout and equalized difficulty for both 10s and 25s.

Now we see what the real draw was. It was the ability to have better gear and to look down upon the lowly 10 man groups and claim superiority. It had nothing to do with the experience. It had nothing to do with the epic fell of raiding with 24 other people. It was about loot and nothing else.

Overall there is no real differences between the two now. Some fights are harder on each side some are easier on each. Some offer more wiggle room on each. Gear is the same except there needs to be an incentive to raid 25s. Why is that? Because not many want to deal with the BS that comes with large groups. Yes you are correct. Blizzard wants 25s and they will add incentive to do so. However I think they need to follow the numbers and let 25s die off if no one wants to participate or leave it how it is. 1 extra piece of loot per kill and let the "real" raiders have their fun in 25s and let everyone else do what they prefer.


First off I didnt say no one liked 10 mans. But to make your point to want to change what I said to make your statement true.

What I said was more people didnt prefer 10 mans as the person I posted stated.

Yes 25 mans raided for the experience and the gear was just a reward that we liked getting. It was the 10 mans thats were the ones crying about the shared lockouts. First it was that they didnt have them and now its that they do have them. Yes we complained about the equalization of loot because we were smart enough to know that it would hurt 25 man raiding as you can see it has.

No 25 mans didnt look down at 10 mans and claim superiority. Everyone know that 25 mans were harder back then (minus 10+3 OS). It actually was the 10 man guilds that made that up because they wanted to get the best gear while not having to do the 25 man raids. They were the ones that used the excuse of gear as being the reason they were being held back from killing bosses.

Funny how now your ok with killing off 25 mans because you got what you wanted. Thats the difference between 10 and 25's. 10 mans only care about themselves and as long as they have what they want they dont care about anyone else. 25 mans just want to be able to raid 25 mans.

The problem is that some people want to raid 25 man sizes but cant because there are not enough 25 man guilds now because instead of the 25 man guilds recruiting when they lose a few players they just convert to 10 mans instead.
100 Draenei Mage
20790
01/25/2013 10:39 PMPosted by Dysheki
Also, this is not a discussion abt relative difficulties of two formats. This thread is more about how to resurrect one format (which is already on life support) without hurting or killing off the other.

I'm convinced at this point it's one or the other. They make 25s the premier tier or they just give up and let 25s slowly die off. (25s, imo, will never completely die off, they will just slowly become less popular).


^.
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