10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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MVP - World of Warcraft
100 Night Elf Druid
13595
The logistic things I've talked about for 25s include difficulty of recruitment. Rewards that benefit the whole 25-man will potentially improve recruitment. That has the indirect reward to the officers of having to spend less time trolling trade chat for potential recruits and more time playing the game. Anything that makes it easier to form a new 25-man raid will increase the probability that officers will be able to form new 25-man raids. It's all a problem of psychological motivation.


That type of motivation mainly attracts one type of player.
Back in the day when I was hard core raiding and a co-GM, we had a rather unflattering name for them. Loot ******.

So if you want more drama, more guilds breaking apart, arguments over looting, and general nastiness. By all means this solution must look like it was handed down by the Titans.


With only a small handful of 25-man guilds left, I'm pretty sure that the current solution isn't working. There were plenty of great raiders that either quit the game or moved to 10s who used to run 25s. They are already breaking apart. They're already dieing. We lost half a dozen (or more) 25-man guilds from my server just during the Cataclysm expansion, leaving only my guild and one other guild running 25s this expansion. For the most part, the changes they made to 10s v 25s killed off 25s almost entirely already, especially those who preferred running casual 25s. When the number of 25s left aren't worth Blizzard's development time, they'll just stop producing that content, and at that point, I'll probably have to just stop playing because raiding 25s is the only content I actually really enjoy in the game. If the 10-man raiders succeed in destroying the 25-man raid size, leaving only a raid size I've worked for years to avoid having to play, then I have to just stop playing. So, the few 25-man raiders left in the US and EU have to advocate for Blizzard to do something to save the raid size that we love from extinction. I love my 25-man guild, and when they run 10-mans on off-nights, I don't usually even sign up for them. That's why I'm so passionate and emotional about this subject - because this is a game where I invest a lot of time time and energy, and I don't feel supported in my decision to choose 25s, I feel under constant threat.

They have to do something that makes it possible to form new 25-mans. The only way to make that possible is to increase the desire for "I don't care what size" people to want to join a 25-man guild, OR make it easier for people who really like 25-man content to come back to 25-man content. That motivation doesn't have to be bribing with purples. I've advocated for many different ways to reduce administrative burdens on 25-man guilds over the last several years. However, you can't have a guild without raiders, and not having enough bodies to run 25s can be a huge problem worth trying to solve.

With the current proposed solution, 10-mans get the exact same loot. The same exact ilevel drops in both formats. Getting more of the same drops is the only difference Blizzard has proposed. If that motivates raiders enough to have new 25-mans spring up on your server, that would be great. However, I don't think it goes far enough to encourage people to form 25-man raids and come back to a raid size they enjoy.

It could actually be that they need to throw out the guild leveling system entirely. It's actually quite possible that the main barrier to entry for new guilds is that people don't want to join a guild that is level 1. Even more, they don't want to join a guild recruiting for 25s that is guild level 1 and has 12 raiders in it. How do you entice people to take a risk on that?
Edited by Lissanna on 1/26/2013 7:34 AM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
..............

Funny how now your ok with killing off 25 mans because you got what you wanted. Thats the difference between 10 and 25's. 10 mans only care about themselves and as long as they have what they want they dont care about anyone else. 25 mans just want to be able to raid 25 mans.

The problem is that some people want to raid 25 man sizes but cant because there are not enough 25 man guilds now because instead of the 25 man guilds recruiting when they lose a few players they just convert to 10 mans instead.


I'll also add to this by again saying that 10 mans do nothing to make the game better. I'm not talking in terms of sub numbers or personal convenience. The GAME.

The game that attracted 10 million plus subs had an end game built around difficult and exclusive large group content. That kind of end game design encouraged social interaction both in terms of people joining Raiding Guilds but in how Guilds themselves interacted. This is an MMO and those kind of social interactions are cornerstones of MMO's

Making all the content available at a press of a button and allowing progression content to be completed by 10 Bro's who don't need to have much social interaction with the rest of the server may be nice and convenient for the "modern" player but it hasn't made the game as a whole better. I'd argue that if it was better we wouldn't see dying servers and people taking entire patches off. Without the social pressures MMO's were infamous for there's less incentive for people to log in.
Edited by Indyana on 1/26/2013 7:33 AM PST
100 Human Warrior
8835
This argument will not be settled until Blizzard kills both off programmatically and replaces all raids with 1 raid size. When they finally choose 1 raids size it has to piss of both 10 and 25s or you will almost certainly loose most if not all players of 1 or the other. The funny thing was I use to advocate for 10 mans in Wrath. However all of the changes they did from Wrath to Cata was not necessary.

All they should have done in the Wrath to Cata conversion was just make the loot the same iLevel. If some in 25s geared faster running both 25 and 10 so be it, it was the raid lockouts and all of the logistical problems that arose from that which screwed 25s hard.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
For 25 mans to exist and be fruitful, 25 man normal needs to be more rewarding than 10 heroic.
More loot is always nice, but seeing as like every guild on my server is 10 man (unless it's Exodus) and those elite jerks. This is nothing really ground breaking, but thanks for telling us :)
Edited by Beararmz on 1/26/2013 8:25 AM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
They have to do something that makes it possible to form new 25-mans. The only way to make that possible is to increase the desire for "I don't care what size" people to want to join a 25-man guild, OR make it easier for people who really like 25-man content to come back to 25-man content. That motivation doesn't have to be bribing with purples. I've advocated for many different ways to reduce administrative burdens on 25-man guilds over the last several years. However, you can't have a guild without raiders, and not having enough bodies to run 25s can be a huge problem worth trying to solve.

With the current proposed solution, 10-mans get the exact same loot. The same exact ilevel drops in both formats. Getting more of the same drops is the only difference Blizzard has proposed. If that motivates raiders enough to have new 25-mans spring up on your server, that would be great. However, I don't think it goes far enough to encourage people to form 25-man raids and come back to a raid size they enjoy.


I'd probably do 25 mans if I could obtain the following, which I currently get from 10 mans:

1. Gear equivalent to heroic ilvl 10s.
2. Meta achievement mounts
3. Heroic kill mounts, e.g. pureblood firehawks, lifebinder's handmaiden.

If I can get all that from getting 15 good players, 5 average players, and 5 derps in a raid, then I'll do 25 mans over 10 mans.

Basically, I need all the rewards I can currently get from 10 heroic guaranteed from 25 mans while having an overall lower average skill level in the raid given what is realistically out there in the recruiting pool for me to form said 25 man raid.

So either 25 man heroic needs to be easy all heck, or 25 man normal offers all the rewards of 10 heroic.

Anything short of that really isn't going to change my mind.
Edited by Firestyle on 1/26/2013 8:38 AM PST
100 Blood Elf Paladin
14815
After thinking about it for a few days, I really like the idea of thunderforged gear, but I really hate the idea of being the one to master loot it etc. Perhaps make each item that drops have an on use effect that can only be used near the thunderforge. The on use could reveal a thunderforged item or not and makes the item bop when identified. This way, leaders would not be responsible for master looting thunderforged items.
90 Dwarf Paladin
11320
01/23/2013 09:09 AMPosted by Hoveround
I like it, throw in some thunderforged LFR pieces in - why not it'll be lower ilevel than normal anyways.


No. Please no. LFR is a way to see content, not get geared.


Here you are wrong. If it wasn't a way to get geared then why do you have two pieces that are raid finder gear? also what is the problem for some of it to be in lfr? Don't give me that crap about hard work and time spent either. the drop rate on gear in this expansion for raids is dismal anyways.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
01/26/2013 08:05 AMPosted by Firestyle
For 25 mans to exist and be fruitful, 25 man normal needs to be more rewarding than 10 heroic.


That's too far. The Wrath model was fine IMO. 25 Normal dropped the same iLevel as 10 Heroic. That was enough incentive to get players to seek out good 25 man Guilds.

I still think the game was better in TBC though. There was multiple levels of progression going on at once and it was fine. Most players were happy and if Blizzard had been as proactive in easing content as the x-pac aged like they do now many Guilds would have kept progressing instead of opting for ez mode Kara badge runs near the end.

It's too late for WOW to ever go back though since the present player base is far from the one that played Vanilla/EQ (part of that change is on Blizz). My hope is they're learning from all the mis-steps post Ulduar and are going to leverage that knowledge in Titan.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
01/26/2013 09:54 AMPosted by Indyana
For 25 mans to exist and be fruitful, 25 man normal needs to be more rewarding than 10 heroic.


That's too far. The Wrath model was fine IMO. 25 Normal dropped the same iLevel as 10 Heroic. That was enough incentive to get players to seek out good 25 man Guilds.

I still think the game was better in TBC though. There was multiple levels of progression going on at once and it was fine. Most players were happy and if Blizzard had been as proactive in easing content as the x-pac aged like they do now many Guilds would have kept progressing instead of opting for ez mode Kara badge runs near the end.

It's too late for WOW to ever go back though since the present player base is far from the one that played Vanilla/EQ (part of that change is on Blizz). My hope is they're learning from all the mis-steps post Ulduar and are going to leverage that knowledge in Titan.


Without making 25 normal more rewarding than 10 heroic, or at least equal but easier, there won't be 25 man guilds for people to seek out. I'm sure not going to go back to running one if they don't incentivize over the top. I get more rewards from doing 10 heroic, and it's a format I enjoy more.
90 Worgen Druid
17805
01/26/2013 08:37 AMPosted by Firestyle
If I can get all that from getting 15 good players, 5 average players, and 5 derps in a raid, then I'll do 25 mans over 10 mans.

That's why I stopped raiding 25s: my raids were basically in that form and I got sick of it. And if someone left it was difficult to recruit because the server population was anemic and getting people to transfer to a dead server is impossible.

I doubt they will listen, but they need to be more lenient with server transfers.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
01/26/2013 09:57 AMPosted by Firestyle


That's too far. The Wrath model was fine IMO. 25 Normal dropped the same iLevel as 10 Heroic. That was enough incentive to get players to seek out good 25 man Guilds.

I still think the game was better in TBC though. There was multiple levels of progression going on at once and it was fine. Most players were happy and if Blizzard had been as proactive in easing content as the x-pac aged like they do now many Guilds would have kept progressing instead of opting for ez mode Kara badge runs near the end.

It's too late for WOW to ever go back though since the present player base is far from the one that played Vanilla/EQ (part of that change is on Blizz). My hope is they're learning from all the mis-steps post Ulduar and are going to leverage that knowledge in Titan.


Without making 25 normal more rewarding than 10 heroic, or at least equal but easier, there won't be 25 man guilds for people to seek out. I'm sure not going to go back to running one if they don't incentivize over the top. I get more rewards from doing 10 heroic, and it's a format I enjoy more.


That's you.

I'd say that the Wrath model would instantly attract people to 25 man's. The Guild this toon is in would likely start up again as an example since I know the leadership has no desire to run 10's and grew tired of the recruitment issues.

It will never happen because of the outrage from the new style player base but I think your dead wrong that going back would have little impact. Plenty of progression minded 10 man Guilds would just merge with friends they previously ran 25's with in past x-pacs.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
16020
01/26/2013 09:57 AMPosted by Firestyle


That's too far. The Wrath model was fine IMO. 25 Normal dropped the same iLevel as 10 Heroic. That was enough incentive to get players to seek out good 25 man Guilds.

I still think the game was better in TBC though. There was multiple levels of progression going on at once and it was fine. Most players were happy and if Blizzard had been as proactive in easing content as the x-pac aged like they do now many Guilds would have kept progressing instead of opting for ez mode Kara badge runs near the end.

It's too late for WOW to ever go back though since the present player base is far from the one that played Vanilla/EQ (part of that change is on Blizz). My hope is they're learning from all the mis-steps post Ulduar and are going to leverage that knowledge in Titan.


Without making 25 normal more rewarding than 10 heroic, or at least equal but easier, there won't be 25 man guilds for people to seek out. I'm sure not going to go back to running one if they don't incentivize over the top. I get more rewards from doing 10 heroic, and it's a format I enjoy more.


We dont want easier. Thats what the 10 mans are for.

10 mans already caused a major nerf in raiding already. We dont want another.
Hello! I love the idea of the thunderforged idea to make 25 player raiding more fun, yet at the same time it gives 10 player raids a little excitement too. For example, 10 player guilds who run those will have more motivation to be serious about downing bosses opposed to now they down 2-3 bosses in a single night then call it (talking about newly formed guilds) they would now have more motivation to push past that limit in attempt to get a 'chance' at a thunderforged. In addition, I love the fact this goes for the 25s as well! because it will give more motivation for smaller guilds to expand to 25 man raiding. We will still see 10man guilds around because not all but most have family/friends who would rather prefer 10mans because it is more easier to help each other out.
Edited by You on 1/26/2013 11:44 AM PST
90 Orc Death Knight
2785
I don't like it.. This is a newer account, but I've played WoW since the beginning... Back then we had 40 man raids with Onyxia and Molten Core.. The only way I could get my full Tier one "Nightslayer" armor was with months of raiding 40 man raids! Same thing applies with getting my Perditions Blade from Rag! It required hard work, time, dedication, and luck! It felt so much more intoxicating when I won my Perdition's Blade with a roll of 72 and beat out 7 other Rogues who were dying to get the weapon...

By giving lazy noobs a good chance to get the highest tier raid gear in 10 man raids when the best loot should only drop in 25 man raids is still catering to the casual lazy gamer.. I don't like it.. Hopefully Blizz will make the thunderforged epics drop rate at like 0.5% in 10 mans and up to around a 20-25% drop in 25 man raids..

Just my 2cp
90 Troll Druid
11620
I've said it a few times already, but I'll say it again because the entire purposes of adding incentive is to actually grab the player's attention. In this case, you want the average player to say "Huh, those new 25man raiding perks seem a bit over-the-top." If the "solution" is too small, nothing will change. Tackle this issue as you tackle Monk PvP buffs -- Go big, make changes after testing the waters. Equality between 10man and 25man should not exist. The "equality" that 10man fanatics are suggesting exist does not exist. You cannot say "Oh but this is equal in every way except that it is much harder to sustain a 25man guild/roster compared to a 10man guild/roster." You cannot say there is equality after you stated there are logistical inequalities. You need to "balance the scale" and give 25man something to overcome the logistical issues of running a 25man raid. In addition, you want to make players feel they'll get better rewards from 25man raiding (this does not translate to better loot (higher ilvl).

Why does the solution need to be 'over-the-top'?
The simple psychology is that players don't care unless there's something in it for themselves. It's not about making 25man the only raiding format, you need to make the preferred raiding format (don't mix up "preferred" and "only" -- I swear some people [mostly 10man fanatics -- most, not all] cannot grasp this concept.) You need to make the individual player want to raid 25man content. 25man rosters cannot live without three major points:

  • 1 : Strong leadership. Without strong leadership, no raid will last very long, this is especially true in 25man raiding because "going out to find replacements" will consist of looking for 1-10 players. 10man leadership might need to find 1-3 players. Oh...these players need to be geared, have acceptable experience. It's not easy, but leadership is more important with more people.

  • 2 : Strict attendance policy or a large bench (5-10 players) (or both). This effects both 25man and 10man raiding. Logistically speaking, it's harder to get 25 geared and experienced players on the same schedule week when compared to 10 players. Unarguable. Imagine running a bench that can branch off a be its own 10man PUG. For some guilds, that's what it takes to kill bosses...or even just pull the first boss. Attendance and Recruitment are extremely important to both raid sizes, but 25man need more players due to potential for unforeseen absences among core members.

  • 3 : Strong incentives with immediate results, something(s) 10man cannot offer, and make 10man raiders jealous (because you're trying to win over weekly PUG'ers as well). The fact is that players will not go to 25man raiding unless it's better/worth it over 10man raiding. Make players want to come to 25man raids. Offering rewards than 10man cannot offer will be helpful towards this cause.

  • How will 25man raiding need to change in order to become a preferred format?
    The difficulty of running a 25man raid needs to change for the better. Offer more Quality of Life improvements, such as 50-charge cauldrons, making the Summoning Stones at raid instances summon all players (warlocks can still be the solo-summoners -- especially if someone needs to Reforge, you can use a warlock stone to bring them back). You need to make the role of the officers and raid leader easier, but it's very difficult to do so. You need to nitpick the details and look for potential changes, above were some suggestions.

    What incentives should be given to the individual player in a 25man raid?
    What do players want? Simplicity. They want the easiest route. As of right now, there are no secondary options to collection Lesser Charms, they are forced into dailies. Valor Point acquisition is the same between 10man and 25man. Realistically, loot is the same between 10man and 25man (yes, 25man has useless loot just like 10man) and off-specc loot is near useless (I have a great resto set I never use for raiding! Our tanks have a great DPS set they never use. Our healers have DPS sets they rarely use). Loot is really good as an incentive, but it's not about making 10man feel worthless, it's about making 25man feel worth it. Better [higher ilvl] loot might be the better way, but it's not the right way. Listing some options to which 25man raids may be rewarding players:

    I need to go into detail on this next point, so here we go:
    Thunderforged Items, in their current implementation, are not a strong incentive. RNG on your RNG is not good. Very slightly better RNG on your RNG is not good either. A better way to implement this system is to reuse the Firelands Crystalized Firestone, but in an "Item Upgrade" manner.

    There will be two types of tokens:
    1. Seal of the Thunderking - Upgrades a Normal-mode version of a non-tier item to a Thunderforged (Normal) version.
    2. Seal of the Thunderking (Heroic) - Upgrades a Heroic-mode version of a non-tier item to a Thunderforged (Heroic) version.

    How to upgrade items into Thunderforged items:
    After acquiring a "Seal of the Thunderking" players may bring this token and their upgradable loot to a "Thunderforger" NPC. Much like the Item Upgrade system, players will increase the power of their upgradable item. Heroic-mode tokens only work on heroic-mode loot, normal-mode tokens only work on normal-mode loot.

    (Normal) 10man "Thunderforged Token":
    • Low droprate on non-Endwing boss encounters. (1 max)(8%)
    • Guaranteed droprate on Endwing boss encounters. (1 max)(100%)
    • Does not use a spot in the "lootbag" on any boss


    (Heroic) 10man "Thunderforged Token":
    • Low droprate on non-Endwing boss encounters. (1 max)(8%)
    • Guaranteed droprate on Endwing boss encounters. (1 max)(100%)
    • Does not use a spot in the "lootbag" on any boss


    (Normal) 25man "Thunderforged Token":
    • Guaranteed droprate on non-Endwing boss encounters. (3 max, 1 minimum)(100%, 16%, 6%)
    • Guaranteed droprate on Endwing boss encounters. (3 max, 2 minimum)(100%, 100%, 6%)
    • Does not use a spot in the "lootbag" on any boss.


    (Heroic) 25man "Thunderforged Token":
    • Guaranteed droprate on non-Endwing boss encounters. (3 max, 1 minimum)(100%, 16%, 6%)
    • Guaranteed droprate on Endwing boss encounters. (3 max, 2 minimum)(100%, 100%, 6%)
    • Does not use a spot in the "lootbag" on any boss.


    25man raiding could award these on a boss kill:

  • Lesser Charms of Good Fortune. ~ Currently there is no secondary option to acquire this currency.
  • Additional Valor Points. Awards 60 Valor for a Normal-mode kill. Awards 80 Valor for a Heroic-mode kill.
  • Thunderforged Token idea (above) - Provides an equal way to acquire Thunderforged items. 25man will acquire these faster, but they also have more players.

  • Understand that a 25man raid is the harder route. You need a better computer. You need 15 additional players to not screw up the mechanics. You need 15 additional players to perform their roles as well as everyone else. You need 15 other people to actually show up on time. You need 15 additional people to come to raid prepared with Flasks, Potions, and Feasts (unless provided). You need the proper strategy for your group (leadership). You need everyone to understand what everyone else is doing (assignments/responsibilities).

    Just because more 25man guilds have killed a specific boss doesn't mean 25man is easier. It could mean the encounter is harder on 10man. It could mean those 25man guilds are more skilled than the 10man guilds, especially when you consider the shear amount of 10man progression guilds. The posts in this thread have not been about the very best players in the world. It's about getting the majority of the population back into considering a 25man raid. After all, the majority are players who do not raid. Offering greater rewards for their time, a different route to acquire desirable items, and a new experience is the only way to bring players back into the 25man raiding scene. Making 25man Normals provide a better experience than 10man (not an easier experience per se) will revitalize 25man raiding.

    A playstyle cannot exist on passion alone. You need others to share your passion to run in a 25man raid. Eventually, the passionate players will stop playing, and that's the end of 25man raiding. You need to get people to enjoy 25man raiding again. It needs to provide a better player experience than 10man raiding. "Better" is subjective, yes, but steps need to be taken to ensure 25man provide a better experience. Without drastic improvements for both the individual and the leader, 25man non-hardcore raiding will be completely dead by the end of this expansion.
    Edited by Cyous on 1/26/2013 12:38 PM PST
    90 Orc Shaman
    13550
    Just a question:

    Since people say both 10s and 25s were thriving under the Wrath model, why should anyone be against going back to that? Seems to be win/win.

    Of course, LFR messes with that setup a little bit. First thought was to have LFR drop the same loot as 10m normal, followed by 10m Heroic = 25m Normal, then 25 Heroic being higher, but I don't know that I want LFR to be equal to any sort of other raiding.

    So LFR would need to be a tier lower, like it has been. Example: LFR at 502, 10n at 515, 10H/25N at 528, 25H at 541. Before 5.2, I would have said that's way to big an item level spread, for a singular tier but 5.2 is doing pretty much exactly that spread already, so it must not be. They could even keep Thunderforged.

    On another note.. incentives for 25. Increased Valor. Charm drops. Take the Guild Challenge and Guild Perks systems and revamp or add things that favor 25s. Just throwing out ideas here.
    90 Tauren Shaman
    8325
    i dont get why anybody cares about the differences in gear, the incentives are irrelevant cuz the drop rates for LFR, 25 and 10 remain less then 1%. ive done LFR every week since debut, and 25 man reg twice, and nothing but gold.
    90 Orc Shaman
    13550
    01/26/2013 12:49 PMPosted by Taurcam
    i dont get why anybody cares about the differences in gear, the incentives are irrelevant cuz the drop rates for LFR, 25 and 10 remain less then 1%. ive done LFR every week since debut, and 25 man reg twice, and nothing but gold.


    Not on that character you haven't.

    Either post on the right character or stop lying. Don't care which.
    Edited by Hyjinx on 1/26/2013 12:59 PM PST
    100 Night Elf Hunter
    11765
    I think what is making the death of 25 mans seem like an issue is a huge decline of people playing and raiding the content at all.

    There is less 10 man raider and less 25 mans combined than there was raiders back in LK.

    The fact is with less players to use 25 mans would of course be hit harder than 10 mans. Both raid formats are struggling to find players.

    The reality only on the biggest servers are you seeing much less of an issue. On all the medium and lower population servers it is tough to recruit anyone at all. Add in the issue of people not wanting to move to a slow realm and you have some issues.

    They really need to allow cross server raiding of current content as the biggest way to prop up all forms of raiding including 25 mans.
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