10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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73 Gnome Warlock
875
01/26/2013 12:25 PMPosted by Cyous
It's not about making 25man the only raiding format


That's exactly what you're asking for. If the formats are not equal with regards to reward, then 25's mans become the only acceptable progression format. If you make it the only progression format you may as well just scrap 10's as a whole because there's no point to running them if they're just as difficult with regards to tuning, but only give half of the long lasting rewards associated with raiding based solely on the basis that 25's have 2 more people needing to deal with the logistical/busy work than there are in a 10m.

Address 25m difficulties where 25's have the difficulties. Stop trying to overcompensate yourself for running an unpopular format, or trying to punish 10's for being more success than 25's at the lower end of the performance spectrum.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
It's not about making 25man the only raiding format


That's exactly what you're asking for. If the formats are not equal with regards to reward, then 25's mans become the only acceptable progression format. If you make it the only progression format you may as well just scrap 10's as a whole because there's no point to running them if they're just as difficult with regards to tuning, but only give half of the long lasting rewards associated with raiding based solely on the basis that 25's have 2 more people needing to deal with the logistical/busy work than there are in a 10m.

Address 25m difficulties where 25's have the difficulties. Stop trying to overcompensate yourself for running an unpopular format, or trying to punish 10's for being more success than 25's at the lower end of the performance spectrum.


Obviously if Blizzard went back to a Wrath model or used the present Korean system then 10's wouldn't be the same difficulty. How is that hard to understand?

Tune 25's to be harder which not only allows for higher iLevel rewards but removes the ridiculous requirement of tuning 33 specs to work in 10 Raid slots. GC has tweeted about the difficulty of creating unique classes in an environment where 10's need to be accounted for. It's fairly obvious that the devs dislike the format in terms of encounter design and class balance.

Going back to a Wrath model offers the devs AND the player base more options than the present system. Separate lock outs with separate difficulty levels offer much more flexibility for the devs in Class design and allows players more chances to Raid with more people.
Edited by Indyana on 1/26/2013 7:44 PM PST
82 Blood Elf Mage
2345
thx all
73 Gnome Warlock
875
01/26/2013 07:43 PMPosted by Indyana
Going back to a Wrath model offers the devs AND the player base more options than the present system.


I disagree completely. Going back to the Wrath model means I lose my ability to raid outside of "Looking for Derps", as would all other low population/shallow player pool servers who are barley managing to field 10m teams as it is now.

Tell me how that means "more options" for me when I'm actually losing the only reason why I bother keeping my sub going?
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
Going back to a Wrath model offers the devs AND the player base more options than the present system.


I disagree completely. Going back to the Wrath model means I lose my ability to raid outside of "Looking for Derps", as would all other low population/shallow player pool servers who are barley managing to field 10m teams as it is now.

Tell me how that means "more options" for me when I'm actually losing the only reason why I bother keeping my sub going?


Obviously you define Raiding as "whatever drops the best gear" since 10's existed in Wrath, they exist in Korea and they would still exist in the context of my post...so nothing would happen to your 10 man bro group.

Since your epeen driven though I'd say you'd find a way to get other like minded players from various 10 man Guilds on your server to make a 25 man progression Guild. You know like players have done since Vanilla. You'd then have the same options as you had in Wrath. The only problem with low pop servers is there are too many Guilds.

I'm sorry to say but losing subs based on something like this is worth it if the game as a whole is made better for it. I won't rehash again why it's better for the devs to balance the game around a larger end game format.
Edited by Indyana on 1/26/2013 8:08 PM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
01/26/2013 07:43 PMPosted by Indyana
Obviously if Blizzard went back to a Wrath model or used the present Korean system then 10's wouldn't be the same difficulty. How is that hard to understand?
The difficulty:reward ratio should stay the same as it is now. If you make 10s easier than they are now people will quit in droves.

I don't want to be forced to raid 25m because that's where the only challenge is.
73 Gnome Warlock
875
01/26/2013 08:07 PMPosted by Indyana
since 10's existed in Wrath


They were the LFR of their day. Being shunted into low grade content because a very small minority within the raid community are in denial over why 25's were more popular in Wrath than they were after Cataclysm came out isn't something that I consider acceptable.

01/26/2013 08:07 PMPosted by Indyana
Since your epeen driven though I'd say you'd find a way to get other like minded players from various 10 man Guilds on your server to make a 25 man progression Guild.


Firstly I'm challenge driven, not epeen driven. I leave being epeen driven to for the people who shrivel up at the prospect of non-25's daring to think they're allowed access to progression content. Secondly, my server doesn't have the raid talent to support 25m as a format so I would lose options. Why should I be denied access to content just because you (general you) are upset that 10's are more popular with the playerbase?

01/26/2013 08:07 PMPosted by Indyana
You'd then have the same options as you had in Wrath.


The option to pay for a character transfer if I want to raid isn't really an option. People shouldn't have to transfer off server to access content they are paying for with a monthly fee, and that's essentially what you're telling everyone that runs on a sub-50 ranked server that they will have to do if they want to do anything more complicated than LFR.

01/26/2013 08:07 PMPosted by Indyana
The only problem with low pop servers is there are too many Guilds.


The problem with low pop servers is that there aren't any raiders, let alone raiders with the skill to get content down without nerfs.
Edited by Bomdanil on 1/26/2013 8:21 PM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
01/26/2013 08:18 PMPosted by Bomdanil
since 10's existed in Wrath


They were the LFR of their day. Being shunted into low grade content because a very small minority within the raid community are in denial over why 25's were more popular in Wrath than they were after Cataclysm came out isn't something that I consider acceptable.
.......
My server doesn't have the raid talent to support 25m as a format. Why should I be denied access to content just because you (general you) are upset that 10's are more popular with the playerbase?
.....
The option to pay for a character transfer if I want to raid isn't really an option. People shouldn't have to transfer off server to access content they are paying for with a monthly fee, and that's essentially what you're telling everyone that runs on a sub-50 ranked server that they will have to do if they want to do anything more complicated than LFR.
......
The problem with low pop servers is that there aren't any raiders, let alone raiders with the skill to get content down without nerfs.


Let me be clear that this is a rhetorical exercise only since I see no chance in hell that anything real will ever be done to change the present paradigm. If anything I hope these discussions spur more thinking for the Titan team.

No rationale poster has delusions why 25's were more popular. Players will always follow the path of least resistance in their gaming just like they do in real life. I've never once posted that 25's were more popular for any reason other than they offered the best rewards.

I will however continue to argue that while 25's were the pinnacle of end game and the only real format that needed to be balanced around the game as a whole was better. Class distinction is the big victim of the 10 man system and that really sucks.

Are you trying to tell us that there are less than 50 capable Raiders on your server? That it's so devoid of life that in the event that we returned to a Wrath model a strong Raid leader could start up a 25 man Guild and players would come along? Please. The issue is there are probably too many Chiefs on your server running their little Guilds and not enough Indians.
90 Orc Shaman
13750
Firstly I'm challenge driven, not epeen driven. I leave being epeen driven to for the people who shrivel up at the prospect of non-25's daring to think they're allowed access to progression content. Secondly, my server doesn't have the raid talent to support 25m as a format so I would lose options. Why should I be denied access to content just because you (general you) are upset that 10's are more popular with the playerbase?


I'm a bit confused. You say you're challenge driven, but then go on to insinuate that 10s are more popular because they're less challenging.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14320
I am a 10 man raid leader who used to raid 25 mans. Here are several things that I've noticed while running a 10 man over the last few years :

1) There is an increasing large population of recruits that have never done a 25 man outside of raid finder

2) People who find a good 10 man often do not want to run a 25 man if it means giving up their 10 man. Some would like to run a 25 man in addition to a 10 man if they could, some are too busy just with the 10 man.

3) I have tried to put together alt runs, but they have eventually devolved into people from my main run's alts plus a few other people. I often do these instead of 25 man runs.

4) There are a lot of people I would love to raid with outside of LFR, but because of skill levels/gear levels etc it's hard to find other people to join a group with them.

5) There are quite a few people I have met who said they would be willing to do content more than once on their mains even if it meant they could not get loot (possibly cosmetic rewards?!).

6) I've noticed that on Mal'ganis, 25 man pugs have basically died (aside from gdkp runs).

On a personal note, I would love to raid 25 mans in addition to 10 mans (even for cosmetic rewards). I think that one thing that is missing is the casual 25 man. There are quite a few players who are ready for more challenging content than LFR, but not the level do difficulty of current normal 10 mans or 25 mans. I realize this would be controversial, but I would love to see 25 man normal tuned lower than 10 man normal and have lockouts removed in some way that does lead to double gearing. This would allow several 10 mans to band together to do a 25 man occasionally and/or 25 man pugs to form more easily. I also think it would help fill in the social gap left by lfr and the disappearance of 25 mans.
90 Troll Druid
20935
Obviously if Blizzard went back to a Wrath model or used the present Korean system then 10's wouldn't be the same difficulty. How is that hard to understand?
The difficulty:reward ratio should stay the same as it is now. If you make 10s easier than they are now people will quit in droves.

I don't want to be forced to raid 25m because that's where the only challenge is.

Exactly.

I love 10's because I'm not a fan of the social aspect of 25's. 10's feel close-knit, and I'm friends with everyone in my raid. This wasn't the case when I was part of 40/25m raids; I felt like there was a huge disconnect between me and the group as a whole. Me, my handful of friends, and "the rest of the people who help me reach my own progression goals". 25's make me feel like I'm a tool at the disposal of the leadership, 10's make me feel like family.

If 10's were eradicated or made into a crappier version of 25's, ala WotLK, I will be incredibly depressed. I would still continue raiding 10m because I like the format, but I will hate being viewed as a "lesser raider" once again. My guild's accomplishments in the game should not be undermined because of raid size.
Edited by Tree on 1/26/2013 9:09 PM PST
73 Gnome Warlock
875
01/26/2013 08:33 PMPosted by Hyjinx
I'm a bit confused. You say you're challenge driven, but then go on to insinuate that 10s are more popular because they're less challenging.


I've never once implied in any form that I think post-Wrath 10m raid content is less challenging than 25m raid content. The discussion between Indy and myself stemmed from the hypothetical situation that the devs go back to the Wrath design model, which I very definitely oppose occuring.
90 Worgen Mage
15160
01/26/2013 09:06 PMPosted by Tree
The difficulty:reward ratio should stay the same as it is now. If you make 10s easier than they are now people will quit in droves.

I don't want to be forced to raid 25m because that's where the only challenge is.

Exactly.

I love 10's because I'm not a fan of the social aspect of 25's. 10's feel close-knit, and I'm friends with everyone in my raid. This wasn't the case when I was part of 40/25m raids; I felt like there was a huge disconnect between me and the group as a whole. Me, my handful of friends, and "the rest of the people who help me reach my own progression goals". 25's make me feel like I'm a tool at the disposal of the leadership, 10's make me feel like family.

If 10's were eradicated or made into a crappier version of 25's, ala WotLK, I will be incredibly depressed. I would still continue raiding 10m because I like the format, but I will hate being viewed as a "lesser raider" once again. My guild's accomplishments in the game should not be undermined because of raid size.


And if the raiding system went back to WotLK style for Item levels but Mists for difficulty then what stops those 10 man raiders from progression? You will still have your challenge and it won't be considered a crappier version of 25 man.

At that point the only difference between the two would be you could get a slightly stronger toon playing 25 mans. Also at that point it means it has gone beyond "playing with friends" or "wanting equal challenge" but rather "I only care about loot".
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455


On a personal note, I would love to raid 25 mans in addition to 10 mans (even for cosmetic rewards). I think that one thing that is missing is the casual 25 man. There are quite a few players who are ready for more challenging content than LFR, but not the level do difficulty of current normal 10 mans or 25 mans. I realize this would be controversial, but I would love to see 25 man normal tuned lower than 10 man normal and have lockouts removed in some way that does lead to double gearing. This would allow several 10 mans to band together to do a 25 man occasionally and/or 25 man pugs to form more easily. I also think it would help fill in the social gap left by lfr and the disappearance of 25 mans.


If you're going to argue for that then we may as well return to the Wrath model. Then 10 Normals would be the gateway for LFR players to try "real" Raiding. It's much easier to form 10's as we've all discussed so if they were tuned easier like they were in Wrath then more players could segue into organized raiding.

If they had kept the Wrath design and added LFR it seems like there would be a very smooth path for players to take. As it stands now players who's only Raiding experience is LFR get a pretty harsh reality check when they try to jump to Normals.
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
And if the raiding system went back to WotLK style for Item levels but Mists for difficulty then what stops those 10 man raiders from progression? You will still have your challenge and it won't be considered a crappier version of 25 man. At that point the only difference between the two would be you could get a slightly stronger toon playing 25 mans. Also at that point it means it has gone beyond "playing with friends" or "wanting equal challenge" but rather "I only care about loot".

That would be perfectly fine. Split the achievements, item level lock 10m achievements, make 10m loot lower item level if you have to.

Loot tables have to be the same items or we'll have the Ulduar/ToC loot problems all over again (on both sides). That includes legendaries.
90 Troll Mage
14435
Hey, thanks for making loot administration more of a nightmare in 5.2. That's about all you've accomplished with this change.

You guys were very close to an ideal model at the end of Wrath, which was the last time all of my casual raiding friends partook in that content. Back then 10s were the perfect size for a group of friends and perfectly tuned as a more laid back, fun setting. But hey, congratulations on making 'challenging' 10 man content and eradicating a buttload of 25 man guilds in the process.


/thread
90 Troll Druid
20935
That would be perfectly fine. Split the achievements, item level lock 10m achievements, make 10m loot lower item level if you have to.

Loot tables have to be the same items or we'll have the Ulduar/ToC loot problems all over again (on both sides). That includes legendaries.

Your idea on ilevel locking 10m achievements is a very good one Arielle.

One of the things I hated about split achievements in WotLK was that a 25m guild could get all of them. They complete the 25m achievements in their normal raids then downsize to 2-3 10m groups and get all of those too. Whereas 10m players cannot access the 25m achievements unless they're lucky enough to score a solid PUG, or go back an expansion or two later.

Keeping 10's and 25's on a shared lockout, and awarding 10m achievements on a capped 10m ilevel, would prevent 25m raiders from trivializing them. It wouldn't prevent them from going back after progression and pulling a Herald of the Titans, but I doubt that will be very common, considering how rare that title is even today.

If 10m bosses have the exact same loot tables, and are not made trivial, then I suppose I would be okay with the system you came up with. So long as 25's can't swoop in and take advantage of 10's, then I think it would be fair.
90 Worgen Druid
17805
And if the raiding system went back to WotLK style for Item levels but Mists for difficulty then what stops those 10 man raiders from progression? You will still have your challenge and it won't be considered a crappier version of 25 man.

At that point the only difference between the two would be you could get a slightly stronger toon playing 25 mans. Also at that point it means it has gone beyond "playing with friends" or "wanting equal challenge" but rather "I only care about loot".

You realize the hypocrisy with this, right?
90 Troll Druid
11620
01/26/2013 10:46 PMPosted by Tree
So long as 25's can't swoop in and take advantage of 10's, then I think it would be fair.

This could happen regardless. I.E. DREAM Paragon.
90 Worgen Mage
15160
And if the raiding system went back to WotLK style for Item levels but Mists for difficulty then what stops those 10 man raiders from progression? You will still have your challenge and it won't be considered a crappier version of 25 man.

At that point the only difference between the two would be you could get a slightly stronger toon playing 25 mans. Also at that point it means it has gone beyond "playing with friends" or "wanting equal challenge" but rather "I only care about loot".

You realize the hypocrisy with this, right?


But you realise the hypocrisy with your own arguments yes? No one - not a single person here arguing for 10 man's being equal cares because they play with friends, or that it is more personal or that you find that format more fun - you are arguing because you care about loot and loot is the primary motivating factor in this game.

If your main interests are fun of raiding, which the same difficulty would mean that is the case, plus fun with raiding in a smaller group of people + fun in that size format, than who the !@#$ cares if 25 man had better gear? There is no way that 10 man is going to die, 10 man was never in danger of dying even when the formats were substantially different. 25 man does not have the same advantage as the 10's do.

Regardless of difficulty, 10 man will always have the size advantage and will always attract people into raiding that format, regardless of what advantage 25 man's might have. WotLK showed how both formats can survive and flourish side by side with everyone being able to find a raid size they prefer to play. I am sorry but I do not see how that is a bad thing. And incidentally, making this change in the first place %^-*ed over half the raiding population which are now no longer raiding at all. So to hell with the people that that think they should be equal. I personally see those people as single-handedly assisting in the slaughter of over half a million raiders at end game all to satisfy this noble idea that you want to have the same toys in your own format of raiding. The idea was the worst decision Blizzard ever made on the raiding scene.

If you went back to WotLK style differences - all of them, except the difficulty, so that 10 man's can have their progress at the same difficulty level as it is now, then you have this wonderful marriage of incentives whereby if you so choose to run 25 mans you can find enough people to do so, and if you choose 10 mans you can have the same challenge with your group of friends as the 25 mans.

No one I know considers 10 man progression and 25 man progression equal ANYWAY. If you clear the instance in 10 man, whoop de bloody do. It has no bearing on our 25 man group. We don't care. I would venture that most 10 man's feel exactly the same thing. So have 10 man's have their own leaderboards. Stop !@#$ing having them combined. Give them the same difficulty and allow each format to shine and at the end of the day the only people that are screwed over are the loot %^-*!s - those that value the item level above all else, and even then only if they prefer 10.

We are talking about an infinitesimally small group of players who;s pissing off would assist millions of raiders. So quite frankly they can go jump off a cliff.
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