10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

(Locked)

90 Pandaren Warrior
16785
The thing is you can't seem to make an argument about how 10's make the game better outside of convenience they offer to most players. They may help the bottom line but it's at the expense of the soul of the game.


This game stopped having a soul a long time ago...
It sold it to bring in the X-box players and leet speak gamers for the arena and pro-tourny stuff at the end of BC. Then those players discovered raiding in Wrath and accountability was removed from them with LFD.

25s were never really popular in BC either. Most of us just did them because that was the only progression route. All those "we love KZ" posts someone was saying was Blizzard misinterpreting... Nope, we liked the little atmosphere with close friends and a tight knit group.

Personally, I'll never go back to "Free loot Tuesdays," or having to deal with the "raid loggers" and the "loot !@#$%s." 10s aren't doing anything to 25s, the decline and inevitable death is all of it's own doing.
Edited by Dorrell on 1/27/2013 3:43 AM PST
90 Draenei Shaman
19050

I don't particularly care about the world progression race either, normally, but I couldn't help but smile when Paragon beat the hell out of the 25's this tier. Was good times hearing all the self-contradictory arguments about why it's different when 25's win vs the first time a 10m run beat them.

Lol it was different, arguably THE best 25man guild in the whole world broke down into a 10man and beat everyone they had been beating or contending with for years, so it's understandable and even expected. It's not like a 10man came out of the wood work and topped Paragon. Just goes to show, if any top 25man guild broke down into 10man they'd beat the 25s they were competing with cause it's easier.
Edited by Primalshock on 1/27/2013 3:47 AM PST
90 Pandaren Warrior
16785

I don't particularly care about the world progression race either, normally, but I couldn't help but smile when Paragon beat the hell out of the 25's this tier. Was good times hearing all the self-contradictory arguments about why it's different when 25's win vs the first time a 10m run beat them.

Lol it was different, arguably THE best 25man guild in the whole world broke down into a 10man and beat everyone they had been beating or contending with for years, so it's understandable and even expected. It's not like a 10man came out of the wood work and topped Paragon. Just goes to show, if any top 25man guild broke down into 10man they'd beat the 25s they were compteing with cause it's easier.


Or that when you run multiple 25s to gear stack and power game 10 people for two weeks or so that you can out gear every other 25 and 10 in the world... >.>

Of course somethings going to be easier faster when your gearing is stacked.
90 Draenei Shaman
19050

Or that when you run multiple 25s to gear stack and power game 10 people for two weeks or so that you can out gear every other 25 and 10 in the world... >.>

Of course somethings going to be easier faster when your gearing is stacked.


Paragon didnt run multiple 25s, they lost raiders who decided to quit the game after DS and weren't able to recruit to really replace them for MoP. So they ended up switching from a 25man guild to a 10man guild. They took 10 of the core raiders from their original 25 and went with it. Nice try making stuff up maybe you should actually look things up first though, here I'll help: http://www.paragon.fi/news/paragon-will-be-switching-25man-10man-mop
90 Troll Druid
11620
Or that when you run multiple 25s to gear stack and power game 10 people for two weeks or so that you can out gear every other 25 and 10 in the world... >.>

Of course somethings going to be easier faster when your gearing is stacked.

That advantaged only lasted until Heroic MSV was opened.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
01/27/2013 03:38 AMPosted by Dorrell
The thing is you can't seem to make an argument about how 10's make the game better outside of convenience they offer to most players. They may help the bottom line but it's at the expense of the soul of the game.


This game stopped having a soul a long time ago...
It sold it to bring in the X-box players and leet speak gamers for the arena and pro-tourny stuff at the end of BC. Then those players discovered raiding in Wrath and accountability was removed from them with LFD.

25s were never really popular in BC either. Most of us just did them because that was the only progression route. All those "we love KZ" posts someone was saying was Blizzard misinterpreting... Nope, we liked the little atmosphere with close friends and a tight knit group.

Personally, I'll never go back to "Free loot Tuesdays," or having to deal with the "raid loggers" and the "loot !@#$%s." 10s aren't doing anything to 25s, the decline and inevitable death is all of it's own doing.


I always liked running 10's with friends in TBC and Wrath. The thing was I also knew the content wasn't tuned for the bleeding edge so any comp would work. That meant my keyboard turning buds could come along and have fun. Wrath killed off real 10 man Raids like Kara it still meant that 10's were cool for chill runs.

The requirement to try and do the impossible now and balance 10 and 25 man formats has hurt the game in multiple ways. I'd say it's marginalized many more players than it's helped compared to how the system worked in Wrath. Those keyboard turner types I mentioned are now stuck in LFR because a Guild trying to progress can't afford the slot anymore. So many friends are left in the dust.
Edited by Indyana on 1/27/2013 4:26 AM PST
50 Gnome Warlock
765
01/27/2013 03:46 AMPosted by Primalshock
Just goes to show, if any top 25man guild broke down into 10man they'd beat the 25s they were competing with cause it's easier.


See what I mean about self contradicting comments? That 25's routinely beat 10's doesn't cause 25m players to think that 25m is easier than 10m due to the extra gear and/or cooldown availability (things that are critical to the progression race, especially if they're weapon drops), but the instant a 10m run beats a 25m guild to world first it's "lol, 10's are ezmode".

01/27/2013 04:24 AMPosted by Indyana
Those keyboard turner types I mentioned are now stuck in LFR because a Guild trying to progress can't afford the slot anymore.


Plenty of folks that use non-optimal playstyles still manage to progression raid through normals and heroic modes without nerfs.
Edited by Bomdanil on 1/27/2013 4:31 AM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
01/27/2013 04:25 AMPosted by Bomdanil
Just goes to show, if any top 25man guild broke down into 10man they'd beat the 25s they were competing with cause it's easier.


See what I mean about self contradicting comments? That 25's routinely beat 10's doesn't cause 25m players to think that 25m is easier than 10m due to the extra gear and/or cooldown availability (things that are critical to the progression race, especially if they're weapon drops), but the instant a 10m run beats a 25m guild to world first it's "lol, 10's are ezmode".


It's disingenuous to use Paragon as any kind of example. If you take a top 3 World Guild and allow them to cherry pick down to the best 10 players all of whom have multiple alts ready to go based on the encounter I'd say they should beat similarly skilled 25 man groups.

The argument about difficulty will never be resolved which is why this system fails. How can you truly measure progression when every encounter is different based on your Raid size?

Until they go back to one size Raiding or return to a tiered difficulty system any progression discussions are moot.
50 Gnome Warlock
765
01/27/2013 04:33 AMPosted by Indyana
If you take a top 3 World Guild and allow them to cherry pick down to the best 10 players all of whom have multiple alts ready to go based on the encounter I'd say they should beat similarly skilled 25 man groups.


That didn't happen in T13, but regardless of that, I was more commenting on the poster proving my point about the discrepancy in thought between the two positions that "25's (almost) always win the world first race, therefore are a harder/more noteworthy format" and "a 10m group won the progression race, and proves that 10 mans are faceroll compared to 25's".

I completely agree with you that arguing over which is harder is folly, because they each have their own strengths and weaknesses in how they manage certain mechanics based on the fight's circumstances and mechanics (Elegon was harder on 10's, blade lord is likely harder on 25's due to the space constraints). However, so long as the overall difficulty when taking the raids as a whole is on balance between the two formats (and I think they are close enough in that regard that the discrepancies are minor to the point of being statistically irrelevant) then how the individual fights themselves play out is more or less irrelevant for the big picture.
Edited by Bomdanil on 1/27/2013 4:46 AM PST
90 Draenei Shaman
19050

I was more commenting on the poster proving my point about the discrepancy in thought between the two positions that "25's (almost) always win the world first race, therefore are a harder/more noteworthy format" and "a 10m group won the progression race, and proves that 10 mans are faceroll compared to 25's".

You were compairing the old top 25man guild in the world to the now top 10man guild in the world, THEY ARE THE SAME PEOPLE! Now if you don't include Paragon in that when was the last time a 10man was top in the world, never thats when...
90 Draenei Shaman
19050

I was more commenting on the poster proving my point about the discrepancy in thought between the two positions that "25's (almost) always win the world first race, therefore are a harder/more noteworthy format" and "a 10m group won the progression race, and proves that 10 mans are faceroll compared to 25's".

You were compairing the old top 25man guild in the world to the now top 10man guild in the world, THEY ARE THE SAME PEOPLE! Now if you don't include Paragon in that when was the last time a 10man was top in the world, never thats when...
50 Gnome Warlock
765
01/27/2013 05:00 AMPosted by Primalshock
Now if you don't include Paragon in that when was the last time a 10man was top in the world, never thats when...


Considering 10's have only been progression content for 4 tiers including the current one that isn't surprising. There have been 10's in the top 10, including last tier where they ranked 3rd ahead of Blood Legion, however, so the prospect of it happening at some point (within Mists even) wasn't beyond credulity.

Ignoring that side point, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that you basically said "If we ignore all the times that X has happened, then when has X happened?". It wasn't a well thought out comment even if the goal behind the statement, that 10's likely wouldn't have won the global progression race if Paragon had stayed 25m, was correct.

Edit: Been fun discussing our different points of view, Indy, but I'm not likely to keep posting here. Too much back and forth and after a point the feedback becomes noise that the devs are going to ignore.
Edited by Bomdanil on 1/27/2013 5:56 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14320
If you're going to argue for that then we may as well return to the Wrath model. Then 10 Normals would be the gateway for LFR players to try "real" Raiding. It's much easier to form 10's as we've all discussed so if they were tuned easier like they were in Wrath then more players could segue into organized raiding.

If they had kept the Wrath design and added LFR it seems like there would be a very smooth path for players to take. As it stands now players who's only Raiding experience is LFR get a pretty harsh reality check when they try to jump to Normals.


No I am arguing that the difficulty should be more along the lines of :

LFR --> normal 25 man --> normal 10 man --> heroic 10/25 man

The reason for this is that 25 mans are dying, and 10 mans are not. Also, you tend to have a greater variety of skill in 25 man than in 10 man. It's true that in the top end guilds the skill difference is kept to a minimum but we do not have a shortage of top end 25 man guilds, what there needs to be more of are 25 man casual guilds and 25 man man casual pugs. These are essential for the survival of 25 mans as 25 mans rely on more so on a feeder structure than 10 mans.

So the question becomes how can we get more 25 man casual runs? The answer, allow 10 man players to raid in them possibly for cosmetic rewards and lower the difficulty to compensate for the greater variety of skill, the increased difficulty of coordinating 25 people, and the logistics of getting 25 people.
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Night Elf Druid
11830
No I am arguing that the difficulty should be more along the lines of :

LFR --> normal 25 man --> normal 10 man --> heroic 10/25 man


No. The 25-man problem isn't about boss difficulty. In WOTLK, there were plenty of casual 25-man guilds and random PUGs formed up and ran 25-man content on servers. Those casual 25-mans existed before, back when 25-man content was harder than 10-man content. Most of the fights still required every person to do their job (see: Defile on the LK fight). The player-base stopped forming new 25-man guilds because it is just simply easier to organize 10 people to get equal rewards. The extra effort involved in starting a brand-new 25-man guild versus just hopping into raids the minute you have 10 people makes forming 25-man guilds prohibitive. If we trivialized 25-man content to make it so easy it felt like LFR, then the content wouldn't even be fun, and wouldn't be worth the extra organizational effort for a new guild.

The arguments in this forum thread have largely NOT been about boss difficulty. There are plenty of great raiders who would run 25-mans if they existed. My 25-man guild has only killed one hard-mode boss so far, but we have a fabulous group of talented people. We don't carry dead weight - we just only raid 6 hours a week. Fixing the problem actually just requires the rewards of 25-mans to be worth forming new guilds. Those rewards don't have to be in higher ilevel. We've outlined dozens of alternative rewards in this thread that have nothing to do with ilevel, but would actually create incentives 25-mans to the point where people would start forming new ones again.

The organizational piece has been about what happens outside of the raid portal. It's about the prohibitive real-life financial burden of server-transfers, the fact that we have a lot of low population servers that should really just be merged, needing cauldrons and max-level feasts back, and needing more token-type drops (more VP for 25s, etc) to provide rewards that lessen the organizational burden (eg. run 25-mans, and then you don't have to do as many daily quests or 5-mans to get your VP!).
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
If you're going to argue for that then we may as well return to the Wrath model. Then 10 Normals would be the gateway for LFR players to try "real" Raiding. It's much easier to form 10's as we've all discussed so if they were tuned easier like they were in Wrath then more players could segue into organized raiding.

If they had kept the Wrath design and added LFR it seems like there would be a very smooth path for players to take. As it stands now players who's only Raiding experience is LFR get a pretty harsh reality check when they try to jump to Normals.


No I am arguing that the difficulty should be more along the lines of :

LFR --> normal 25 man --> normal 10 man --> heroic 10/25 man

The reason for this is that 25 mans are dying, and 10 mans are not. Also, you tend to have a greater variety of skill in 25 man than in 10 man. It's true that in the top end guilds the skill difference is kept to a minimum but we do not have a shortage of top end 25 man guilds, what there needs to be more of are 25 man casual guilds and 25 man man casual pugs. These are essential for the survival of 25 mans as 25 mans rely on more so on a feeder structure than 10 mans.

So the question becomes how can we get more 25 man casual runs? The answer, allow 10 man players to raid in them possibly for cosmetic rewards and lower the difficulty to compensate for the greater variety of skill, the increased difficulty of coordinating 25 people, and the logistics of getting 25 people.


I know what you meant. My post was a rebuttal because your idea doesn't work. You expect your new LFR player to be able to not only make the leap to organized Raiding but to do it by organizing a 25 man? Are you out of you mind? Who's going to run these things? Even a casual 25 man Guild needs strong leadership and those types left the game for many of the reasons stated in this thread. They aren't coming back to lead the B League to glory.

The main reason 10's are so popular is because of the low barrier to entry. Get 9 bros from your dorm or 9 people from your job and you have a Raid group. That low barrier is what makes 10 Normals perfect for the ambitious LFR player to try and make the leap.

If they were tuned easier than they are now the combo of painless organization plus a less onerous difficulty jump may actually get some of those people into organized runs and keep the game alive. It's the Wrath model plus LFR.

LFR > 10 Normal > 25 Normal > 10 Heroic > 25 Heroic.
Edited by Indyana on 1/27/2013 8:33 AM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455


The organizational piece has been about what happens outside of the raid portal. It's about the prohibitive real-life financial burden of server-transfers, the fact that we have a lot of low population servers that should really just be merged, needing cauldrons and max-level feasts back, and needing more token-type drops (more VP for 25s, etc) to provide rewards that lessen the organizational burden (eg. run 25-mans, and then you don't have to do as many daily quests or 5-mans to get your VP!).


I think Blizz missed the boat on something here. Instead of fighting their own desires to make Classes as unique as possible so they could attempt the impossible and squeeze 33 specs into 10 Raid slots they should have balanced everything around 25's like they always have.

So Buffs, Debuffs and various Class skills balanced around 25 Raiders. Meaning it's likely that your average "bring the player" 10 man would be missing some key ingredients. Nothing that makes the encounter impossible without a given class but if the missing components make it more likely that a 25 would be successful? Sure.

Keep the iLevels the same but the increased logistics are matched by smoother runs once those logistics are met. Add in some of the other ideas thrown around here like 25 man only Cauldrons and Feasts, 25 man only HGWT etc and maybe you offset the strain of running a 25 enough to get some of the better leaders to go back to the format.
90 Orc Shaman
13750
01/27/2013 02:08 AMPosted by Bomdanil
no one was asking to get rid of 25s back then


No one is asking to get rid of them now. We just want the solution to be realistic, to actually address what is hurting 25m the most (i.e. logistics and management), and to not be a punishment on 10's just because they happen to be a genuinely enjoyable experience for a good sized chunk of the raiding community.


Ok. What if we went back to the Wrath loot system but kept 10s at the same level of challenge as now? Seeing as how you've stated you're after the challenge, that would be less of a punishment, right?

In an effort to stave off your inevitable rant about loot response..

See, Blizzard is kinda smart. We know and they know that loot is the driving force, and thus the easiest way to change things up. It's just that the Thunderforged won't do it enough (and actually complicates things due to it not being guaranteed), and they're reluctant to flip the switch back to Wrath (where it was guaranteed).

On the other hand, those other "realistic" solutions you want are apparently someplace they don't want to go. We don't know why; all we have is speculation. Maybe it's logistics. Maybe they want a blanket solution and not a targeted solution for guild management because they know that such a targeted solution would essentially force them to define "guild management" first.

Either way, 25s are stuck until they do one of those. The only thing we already know is that 10s won't die if they flip the aforementioned switch because they didn't die in Wrath or in early Cataclysm (despite your difficulty issue, which was probably just an iteration issue as a result of them making the formats "equal" in difficulty for the first time).
90 Pandaren Monk
7915
They have never been "equal" and we have several years of human behaviour in this game to show that they have never been equal.


T11 was ridiculously overtuned for 10's vs 25's, and 25's still floundered because just filling dead space with bodies no longer worked in normal mode like it did in Wrath. Claiming "but 10's are easy mode and that's why they're more popular!" in the face of direct evidence to the contrary causes me to question your objectivity.

10s will always be the inferior size, no top 25m guild cares about 10mans progression.


I don't particularly care about the world progression race either, normally, but I couldn't help but smile when Paragon beat the hell out of the 25's this tier. Was good times hearing all the self-contradictory arguments about why it's different when 25's win vs the first time a 10m run beat them.


Dude, 10s in Cata were a joke compared to 25s, that is a fact...did you even run 25s then? At first, 10s were overtuned but they were hotixed rather quickly, and that was early in T11, but you and others keep repeating this lie over and over in every thread like this to try and make it the truth somehow. If you ran a bad comp in 10s, prior to 4.1, yes, you would gimp yourself...but that was on you, not the encounter.

I raided both 10 and 25 in Cata, very few fights in 10 you could say were more difficult, Like Ragnaros, yet almost all were more difficult in 25 (yeah try and claim Al Akir was easier on 25, go right ahead), which could easily be measured in the time it took to down the boss which was often a min or 2 more in 25...more time for healer mana to run out, more time to die etc. All you can say is at first 10s were hard because of the quickly fixed tuning, and because classes weren't quite yet homogenized like they are now. Giving battle rez to Locks and DKs in 4.1, for example.

If you didn't run 25s then, what the hell are you talking about now? What 'direct evidence' are you talking about? That way more people run 10s? That is actually proof positive they are easier, in fact a Blue even posted as such in this very thread...people follow the easiest path. Way more people raid 10s just like way more people raid normals over heroics. If you don't run 25s, stop spouting off on what you don't know...I ran both back then and say you're full of !@#$.

Now, MoP is quite different, but you weren't talking about that.
Edited by Gyiatso on 1/27/2013 9:46 AM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
7915


A tiered difficulty system like Wrath with 10 Normal at the lowest level doesn't stop anyone from playing 10's. It's the same argument in reverse and it always comes down to gear and epeen. The thing is we know the Tiered system worked fine since Wrath is proof.

There's nothing but good reasons why the model works better than what we have now....

a) Normal 10's should be the bridge format for players trying to move from LFR to organized Raiding. Right now the difficulty switch is too steep and keeps the majority of the WOW player base in the LFR ghetto. We all agree that 10's are easier for your average player to organize. With a shallower difficulty jump from LFR having Wrath style 10 Normals would create an easier transition to Raiding.

b) The 2 sizes can never be balanced for every fight. It's impossible. The need to try puts artificial limitations on encounter design. With Wrath style Raiding Blizzard can go back to tuning the encounters for 25 Heroic and scaling down from there.

c) Class Homogenization can DIAF. Class abilities can be balanced around the more logical 25 man format. More logical because only a fool would think it can work to take 33 specs and squeeze them into 10 Raid slots fairly without blurring class distinction too much. No more worries about Buff normalization and other game killing design necessities.

All the above make the game better. The only thing the I can say about the present system is it's convenient. It's also one of the things making the game rot.


You make some good points. To touch on the second, this is exactly right, but Blizz has been adjusting the tuning ever since t11, to the point now where many fights on 25 are easier. Emphesis on the word 'now'. I think IMO, fights revolve more around enrage timers than they ever did precisely because they can no longer design complex fights like we had in BC because 10s couldn't run them...not without severely gimping the mechanics a la 4 horsemen....but that is IMO.

On point 3, I agree, classes have been over homogenized thanks to 10 mans, exactly.
Edited by Gyiatso on 1/27/2013 9:43 AM PST
This topic is locked.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]