10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Orc Death Knight
8875
Not sure if it was said but I wasn't going to read 63 pages.

My concern is that the T15 set bonuses had better be incredible by the time it goes live otherwise everyone is going to say screw it and pass/DE it in favor of Thunderforged gear.
90 Worgen Druid
17805
Unless you have been in our position over the last few years you cannot possibly know how many times we have been slapped in the face over our decision to raid this size and just how difficult Blizzard has made it for us to do so. So do not presume to judge us simply because we are not happy.

Also, TLDR and to make a post on topic again, this Thunderforged idea will not help 25 man's so please stop portraying it as a feature that has anything to do with 10 and 25 man.

a) I have been a 25 man raider until MoP: http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/Dalvengyr/Dysheki/

b) I know it won't help (it actually makes running any raid more difficult).

c) I was merely pointing out the hilarity of you calling 10 man loot ****** for voicing an opinion that 25s shouldn't get better gear when you're being a loot ***** by asking for better gear.
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
01/27/2013 03:05 AMPosted by Indyana
a) Normal 10's should be the bridge format for players trying to move from LFR to organized Raiding. Right now the difficulty switch is too steep and keeps the majority of the WOW player base in the LFR ghetto. We all agree that 10's are easier for your average player to organize. With a shallower difficulty jump from LFR having Wrath style 10 Normals would create an easier transition to Raiding.

You're not getting it. No.

01/27/2013 03:05 AMPosted by Indyana
b) The 2 sizes can never be balanced for every fight. It's impossible. The need to try puts artificial limitations on encounter design. With Wrath style Raiding Blizzard can go back to tuning the encounters for 25 Heroic and scaling down from there.
Ulduar.

01/27/2013 03:05 AMPosted by Indyana
c) Class Homogenization can DIAF. Class abilities can be balanced around the more logical 25 man format. More logical because only a fool would think it can work to take 33 specs and squeeze them into 10 Raid slots fairly without blurring class distinction too much. No more worries about Buff normalization and other game killing design necessities.
No.

Although it's entirely possible you actually meant "10n should be easier relative to 25n" which is fine. But that requires 25n to be difficult.

You will not sacrifice 10m difficulty on the altar to save 25m.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
a) Normal 10's should be the bridge format for players trying to move from LFR to organized Raiding. Right now the difficulty switch is too steep and keeps the majority of the WOW player base in the LFR ghetto. We all agree that 10's are easier for your average player to organize. With a shallower difficulty jump from LFR having Wrath style 10 Normals would create an easier transition to Raiding.

You're not getting it. No.


Not getting what? That 10 man Normals should be the logical path from LFR ? Or are you actually arguing that organizing a 10 has the same logistical issues? In both cases I think you're the one not getting it.

What's a better path for a new player? One who's dipped their toes in Raiding via LFR and who now wants a more organized experience? 10 Mans where they can get 9 of their Bros or 25 mans which requires a social group the size of a large frat unles you also expect them to recruit?

The same reason 10's are more popular is why they should be the everyman format for new players.

b) The 2 sizes can never be balanced for every fight. It's impossible. The need to try puts artificial limitations on encounter design. With Wrath style Raiding Blizzard can go back to tuning the encounters for 25 Heroic and scaling down from there.
Ulduar.


Are you really this obtuse? Ulduar was released in Wrath when there was both an iLevel and difficulty difference between the sizes. Ulduar is a perfect example of my point. It was balanced for 25's as far as expected comps and then scaled down for the smaller format where comp was more forgiving. Try harder.

c) Class Homogenization can DIAF. Class abilities can be balanced around the more logical 25 man format. More logical because only a fool would think it can work to take 33 specs and squeeze them into 10 Raid slots fairly without blurring class distinction too much. No more worries about Buff normalization and other game killing design necessities.
No.


No what? Even the lead dev posts Twitter feeds about the difficulty of keeping Classes distinct in an environment where 10 man exist. Why do you think we've seen all the Buff and skill homogenization since Cata?? It's a big issue and is hurting the game.

Although it's entirely possible you actually meant "10n should be easier relative to 25n" which is fine. But that requires 25n to be difficult.

You will not sacrifice 10m difficulty on the altar to save 25m.


Blizzard could make 10 man Normals easier to help players seque into Raiding from LFR and to help casual yet organized Guilds who want to Raid and prefer their small groups to LFR. Keep 25 Normals and 10 Heroic the same difficulty as we have now then make 25 Heroic the hardest content like we see in Korea. That makes a smoother path. LFR>10 Norm>25 Normal>10 Heroic>25 Heroic.

The only difficulty drop would be 10 Normals and I'd say the benefits to that idea far outweigh the epeen hit for 10 man Normal Guilds.
Edited by Indyana on 1/27/2013 11:05 AM PST
90 Orc Shaman
13750
01/27/2013 10:20 AMPosted by Arielle
You will not sacrifice 10m difficulty on the altar to save 25m.


'Kay. Do what I said earlier, keep the difficulty the same but give 25H a tier higher loot quality.

There. Your difficulty isn't sacrificed.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
01/27/2013 11:04 AMPosted by Hyjinx
You will not sacrifice 10m difficulty on the altar to save 25m.


'Kay. Do what I said earlier, keep the difficulty the same but give 25H a tier higher loot quality.

There. Your difficulty isn't sacrificed.


...and it doesn't even need to change as I posted above (at least as far as 10 Heroic is concerned).
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
01/27/2013 11:01 AMPosted by Indyana
Are you really this obtuse? Ulduar was released in Wrath when there was both an iLevel and difficulty difference between the sizes. Ulduar is a perfect example of my point. It was balanced for 25's as far as expected comps and then scaled down for the smaller format where comp was more forgiving. Try harder.

But 10n was still difficult.

I think there's a communicaiton lapse somewhere.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
01/27/2013 11:08 AMPosted by Arielle
Are you really this obtuse? Ulduar was released in Wrath when there was both an iLevel and difficulty difference between the sizes. Ulduar is a perfect example of my point. It was balanced for 25's as far as expected comps and then scaled down for the smaller format where comp was more forgiving. Try harder.

But 10n was still difficult.

I think there's a communicaiton lapse somewhere.


We're not talking about quantifying difficulty. 25's were designed to be harder in Wrath. The 25 man version of Ulduar was harder than the 10 man version and I'm not just talking in terms of 25 man players coming in with higher iLevel.

Difficulty is always hard to judge since it's such a personal experience. Whatever your personal thoughts on the matter the devs tried to balance 10's to be easier in Wrath.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14320
I know what you meant. My post was a rebuttal because your idea doesn't work. You expect your new LFR player to be able to not only make the leap to organized Raiding but to do it by organizing a 25 man? Are you out of you mind? Who's going to run these things? Even a casual 25 man Guild needs strong leadership and those types left the game for many of the reasons stated in this thread. They aren't coming back to lead the B League to glory.

The main reason 10's are so popular is because of the low barrier to entry. Get 9 bros from your dorm or 9 people from your job and you have a Raid group. That low barrier is what makes 10 Normals perfect for the ambitious LFR player to try and make the leap.

If they were tuned easier than they are now the combo of painless organization plus a less onerous difficulty jump may actually get some of those people into organized runs and keep the game alive. It's the Wrath model plus LFR.

LFR > 10 Normal > 25 Normal > 10 Heroic > 25 Heroic.


There is a reason why LFR is 25 man and not 10 man. Blizzard has openly admitted that it is easier to tune 25 man so that the average difficulty is easier than 10 man. The organizational difficulties could be overcome by making the raid slightly easier on normal and allowing double lockouts. I am not saying turn 25 man into LFR, but you might loosen up the raid mechanics somewhat. For example, leave all the mechanics on garalon as is, but perhaps nerf the dps requirement to down him. Something along those lines.

I see a lot of people on this thread saying things that would be destructive to one format or another. Once you give higher ilvl loot to one format or another you wreck the entire raiding system causing people to quit.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14320
We're not talking about quantifying difficulty. 25's were designed to be harder in Wrath. The 25 man version of Ulduar was harder than the 10 man version and I'm not just talking in terms of 25 man players coming in with higher iLevel.

Difficulty is always hard to judge since it's such a personal experience. Whatever your personal thoughts on the matter the devs tried to balance 10's to be easier in Wrath.


Only partially true, they balanced 10 mans to be done with 10 man loot. Since most people went into 10 mans with 25 man loot (which had a higher ilvl), 10 mans seemed a lot easier. There are very few people who can say how hard 10 mans were in wrath, since the number of guilds who used strictly 10 man loot were very limited back then.
85 Tauren Druid
10075
10mans suck...enough said....this is a MMO people...I won't raid serz mode until 25s get changed back like it was in early wrath.
85 Tauren Druid
10075
01/25/2013 10:35 PMPosted by Telepathy
The main thing as a company to be careful of is not trying to shoehorn players into playing something YOU find fun. Or that a vocal minority finds fun. Discover what the community in large finds fun and what they gravitate towards and build on that. You'll end up with happier players.


I think that's what they are trying to do. Vanilla, TBC and Wrath were all 25man having the advantage so there wasn't really an option for most. Cata and so far in MoP 10mans have the advantage. There hasn't been a time in which the formats are as close to equal as possible to find out what players really do want. I think this is a step to find that balance so Blizzard will know where people truly stand.


Where do you get that Vanilla, BC and wrath 25s had the advantage last time i checked you could run both the same week...your statement is invalid.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455


There is a reason why LFR is 25 man and not 10 man. Blizzard has openly admitted that it is easier to tune 25 man so that the average difficulty is easier than 10 man. The organizational difficulties could be overcome by making the raid slightly easier on normal and allowing double lockouts. I am not saying turn 25 man into LFR, but you might loosen up the raid mechanics somewhat. For example, leave all the mechanics on garalon as is, but perhaps nerf the dps requirement to down him. Something along those lines.

I see a lot of people on this thread saying things that would be destructive to one format or another. Once you give higher ilvl loot to one format or another you wreck the entire raiding system causing people to quit.


There's a huge difference between designing encounter around random strangers and those designed to be beaten by an organized group. You're misreading Blizzard's rationale for making LFR 25 man. LFR removes all the logistical and operational headaches so 25's become the most efficient way to get strangers into a Raid environment since they can tune things so you can carry 10 people easily. It's much harder to do that with a 10 man for something like LFR only. This last few pages of this thread are how to address those logistical issues for 25's.

We're not talking about LFR though. We're talking about organized Raids where all those Operational issues come into the equation. The players need a way to go from LFR to regular Raiding. How can you not see that 10 man Normals are the most logical path? They're much easier for a new player to organize and run. If the difficulty was turned down many LFR players and other more casual types could dip their toes into organized raiding.

Al it would take is a retuning of Normal 10's without touching Heroic 10. Pretty simple compared to your idea of some version of 25's that's not LFR yet somehow removes many of the operational barriers to entry in a way that's different than LFR.

10 mans are the Raid size for your average player. That makes them perfect to move players out of LFR.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
We're not talking about quantifying difficulty. 25's were designed to be harder in Wrath. The 25 man version of Ulduar was harder than the 10 man version and I'm not just talking in terms of 25 man players coming in with higher iLevel.

Difficulty is always hard to judge since it's such a personal experience. Whatever your personal thoughts on the matter the devs tried to balance 10's to be easier in Wrath.


Only partially true, they balanced 10 mans to be done with 10 man loot. Since most people went into 10 mans with 25 man loot (which had a higher ilvl), 10 mans seemed a lot easier. There are very few people who can say how hard 10 mans were in wrath, since the number of guilds who used strictly 10 man loot were very limited back then.


Again it's subjective and a waste of air to argue about it. The goal was to make 25's harder to justify the iLevel difference. Whether Blizzard failed or succeeded is up to the individual player.
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
01/27/2013 01:33 PMPosted by Indyana
Again it's subjective and a waste of air to argue about it. The goal was to make 25's harder to justify the iLevel difference. Whether Blizzard failed or succeeded is up to the individual player.
As long as 10m is still challenging with loot available to people doing 10ms then it doesn't really matter.

Everything else needs to be the same though if all you change is item level of the rewards.
90 Worgen Warrior
16540
01/27/2013 12:27 PMPosted by Arcbound
There is a reason why LFR is 25 man and not 10 man. Blizzard has openly admitted that it is easier to tune 25 man so that the average difficulty is easier than 10 man. The organizational difficulties could be overcome by making the raid slightly easier on normal and allowing double lockouts. I am not saying turn 25 man into LFR, but you might loosen up the raid mechanics somewhat. For example, leave all the mechanics on garalon as is, but perhaps nerf the dps requirement to down him. Something along those lines.

No thanks.

Back when the first "M" in "MMO" meant something, scale was factored into the effort/reward equation for raiding. People often point to the "individual responsibility" of being in a 10 man heroic raid. Fact of the matter is, on the edge of progression, every person matters in terms of throughput. On the harder encounters, the execution of every raider matters ... the legendary encounters in this game (Heroic Lich King, Heroic Ragnaros) demanded NO slack when the first wave of 25 man guilds defeated them.

Raiding is a team game. The larger the team, the more difficult the dance. Blizzard screwed this WHOLE thing up when they forgot one of the basic tenets of MMOs (really, of games in general), which is that the hardest, most grueling challenges clearly get the best rewards. It doesn't matter if it's a persistent difference in iLevel, exclusive mounts or something else creative they come up with, but it has to be real, tangible and valued by the people who would seek out those challenges. This Thunderforged garbage is not the solution.

Frankly, I don't think Blizzard is that stupid. During their Reddit Q&A, they admitted that "... if Mechanar taught us anything, it's that players will always take the path of least resistance when the rewards are equal." (SOURCE: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/7207171). Are you telling me that they didn't foresee the effect their ridiculous new model was going to have on 25 man raiding? They didn't read the scores of progression raiders who provided strong feedback during Cataclysm's beta?

Of course they did. I'm fairly certain they're headed down the path of a single raid size. It's cost effective, which is important for a game that is nearly a decade old and for a studio that has a keen eye on other, newer projects. They've spent a couple of expansions choking out their larger format. They're almost there.

Anyways, shame on them for not being forthcoming and for leaving us twisting in the wind. Or if I'm wrong and they actually do care about what they've done to progression raiding, shame on them for being so blind, slow to respond and weak in their response.
90 Tauren Hunter
15110
I am upset that others are not sharing my opinion on how raiding should be structured, stop it.
You should stop disagreeing with me. Stop.
90 Tauren Shaman
13175
I'm fairly certain they're headed down the path of a single raid size. It's cost effective, which is important for a game that is nearly a decade old and for a studio that has a keen eye on other, newer projects.


I agree with you but I believe they're going to choke out 10s, not 25s. I believe they will eventually use LFR as the vehicle for this single raid size. I fully believe the future is a LFR where there's a Normal and Heroic distinction, just like LFD, where normal is similar to LFR currently and heroic is for guilds/organized groups.
90 Orc Shaman
13750
01/27/2013 02:31 PMPosted by Nydidolyn
I'm fairly certain they're headed down the path of a single raid size. It's cost effective, which is important for a game that is nearly a decade old and for a studio that has a keen eye on other, newer projects.


I agree with you but I believe they're going to choke out 10s, not 25s. I believe they will eventually use LFR as the vehicle for this single raid size. I fully believe the future is a LFR where there's a Normal and Heroic distinction, just like LFD, where normal is similar to LFR currently and heroic is for guilds/organized groups.


That will never work.

Also, there are no "heroics" in LFD. Just maximum level 5 mans. They're easy as hell. The real challenge in 5 mans is Challenge Modes.. and you can't LFD for those.
90 Tauren Shaman
13175
That will never work.

Also, there are no "heroics" in LFD. Just maximum level 5 mans. They're easy as hell. The real challenge in 5 mans is Challenge Modes.. and you can't LFD for those.


Blizzard themselves said a lot of things that would "never work", and then they came to be anyway. Faction transfers, name changes, race changes, just to name a few.

Just because MoP "heroics" are easy doesn't change the fact that they're called heroics by Blizzard and, by their reckoning (not ours), harder than normal modes with better loot.

They're continually tweaking CRZ and gradually changing how initiating manual CRZ groups functions. The next logical step is to simply make LFR operate identically to LFD. One group size, two "difficulty" levels, two sets of loot with different ilevel distinctions. It's cheaper development all around for an aging game that is merely trying to retain the largest amount of its playerbase for recurring revenue. No disrespect but if all the heroic hardcore raiders left in the next month, Bliz probably wouldn't flinch, financially.

Besides, nothing says they can't do this and make "challenge mode" raids for groups who want to try their luck at them. But just like current challenge mode 5 mans, the rewards would merely be cosmetic.
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