10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Dwarf Warrior
9005
From someone who was a longtime raider, back from vanilla wow through BC and begun to stop raiding in IceCrown, I can attribute it all to one thing. Drama. That awful thing that doesn't belong in video games, yet the more people in a guild the more drama there seemed to be. As each guild crumbled from "drama," it wore on me more an more until I finally wasn't even playing the game anymore come Cata. I didn't want to go through the process of finding a guild, avoiding the drama, watching the guild crumble, and finding a new guild again just to try to keep at the top.

This change of 10 man and 25 man having the same loot is great and makes me start thinking about raiding again. Less people means less drama. Why do we even need large raid guilds? I've been in several top large raiding guilds and the drama was always awful....

The loot idea is nice, but I hope it isn't just for large guilds. There is a reason more people went to 10man raiding guilds and it hardly is because it is "easier" more than there is just less drama. The same reason why so many people were willing to sacrifice having top end gear entering IceCrown, because they were just tired of the drama that came with large guilds.

This will be nice if the loot chance drop is only very slightly increased, but I don't see why it should be different at all. Give the large guilds achievements and call it good. It wont encourage most people to put up with the extra drama.

Disclaimer: Yes, I know some people might be in large guilds that are fun and drama free, but I've never experienced such a thing. Maybe it is just top guilds on a server and people being too competitive in such environments which creates drama and other guilds which don't strive to be on top are different. I've just never been in a low maintenance low drama guild before when they're large.
100 Human Warrior
8835
Drama occurs in many ways over Loot, and since all the loot is RNG based then depending up raid makeup there is RNG potential for drama. For raiding Blizzard should have a long time ago switching to a mostly static loot system where at least 1 full set of gear is available each tier from some sort of currency system. Similar to T9 and T10 but expanded to include all slots. Then have a few RNG based drops including upgrade tokens. Where the game rewards you for participation like EPGP does as a player based add-on.

Actually even outside of raiding there should be a full set of gear, i.e. every gear slot available that is based upon a repeatable activity such that you can at anytime work toward your goal at ones leisure, this includes weapons. The only system that allows for that currently is the pvp gearing system which needs a little work but is at least viable. PvE loot and gearing systems are completely FUBARed.
Edited by Malchome on 1/28/2013 5:28 AM PST
90 Night Elf Hunter
15210
Kalanu
90 Night Elf Druid
Enigma
15830

Edited by Kalanu on 1/28/13 4:20 AM (PST)
Why should your wife's lack of proper hardware affect my raiding?
Secondly I had a look at some of your previous posts, all the same whiny crap.

You seem to think that you are entitled to a lot of things. You believe the world is not fair because you cannot afford a better computer for your wife. Give me a break!


you seem to think that then because you can raid 25 man then that the entitles you to better gear then some one that raids 10mans no you give me a break

i am asking for nothing im saying that just because you raid 25 man does not make you special !!!!!!!!!!!

and while we are on the subject there's a reason 19 of the top 20 guilds in the world are 25man only paragon are solely 10man and i bet its not for the so called extra challenge that 25man suposedly offers players
Edited by Tyragonbeast on 1/28/2013 5:41 AM PST
90 Worgen Mage
15160
Kalanu
90 Night Elf Druid
Enigma
15830

Edited by Kalanu on 1/28/13 4:20 AM (PST)
Why should your wife's lack of proper hardware affect my raiding?
Secondly I had a look at some of your previous posts, all the same whiny crap.

You seem to think that you are entitled to a lot of things. You believe the world is not fair because you cannot afford a better computer for your wife. Give me a break!


you seem to think that then because you can raid 25 man then that the entitles you to better gear then some one that raids 10mans no you give me a break

i am asking for nothing im saying that just because you raid 25 man does not make you special !!!!!!!!!!!


No it doesn't make you special, however it does make you different from the 10 mans as such they should be separate entities. This problem stems from trying to make them the same in the first place - they were never the same, they never have been the same. If you raid 10 man's you should have different rewards than if you raid 25 mans. It does not mean those have to be item level - there are many examples of how more rewarding both formats could be if you treat them separately.

So no, raiding 25 mans does not make you anymore special than raiding 10 mans, but pretending they are the same and should this be awarded the same is incredibly ignorant as it ignores the last 3 years of actual player behavior.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
16020
Kalanu
90 Night Elf Druid
Enigma
15830

Edited by Kalanu on 1/28/13 4:20 AM (PST)
Why should your wife's lack of proper hardware affect my raiding?
Secondly I had a look at some of your previous posts, all the same whiny crap.

You seem to think that you are entitled to a lot of things. You believe the world is not fair because you cannot afford a better computer for your wife. Give me a break!


you seem to think that then because you can raid 25 man then that the entitles you to better gear then some one that raids 10mans no you give me a break

i am asking for nothing im saying that just because you raid 25 man does not make you special !!!!!!!!!!!


Your asking for Blizzard to not change what they did because it would effect you.

You got what you wanted because you though that you were entitled to it but now we cant ask for them to change it back because it has hurt 25 man raiding.?

So if you want something you can ask and the reason is you should be entitled to have it but if its something you dont like then they are not entitled to it and cant ask.

Nice logic.
90 Night Elf Hunter
15210
No it doesn't make you special, however it does make you different from the 10 mans as such they should be separate entities. This problem stems from trying to make them the same in the first place - they were never the same, they never have been the same. If you raid 10 man's you should have different rewards than if you raid 25 mans. It does not mean those have to be item level - there are many examples of how more rewarding both formats could be if you treat them separately.

So no, raiding 25 mans does not make you anymore special than raiding 10 mans, but pretending they are the same and should this be awarded the same is incredibly ignorant as it ignores the last 3 years of actual player behavior.

#1304
2 minutes ago
Like


actually i agree with this as long as the rewards are of equal merrit and im sorry but giving 25man guilds better gear does not represent that. Even if 10 mans will get the same gear at a slower rate still comes across as a penalty for not raiding 25man
90 Worgen Mage
15160
No it doesn't make you special, however it does make you different from the 10 mans as such they should be separate entities. This problem stems from trying to make them the same in the first place - they were never the same, they never have been the same. If you raid 10 man's you should have different rewards than if you raid 25 mans. It does not mean those have to be item level - there are many examples of how more rewarding both formats could be if you treat them separately.

So no, raiding 25 mans does not make you anymore special than raiding 10 mans, but pretending they are the same and should this be awarded the same is incredibly ignorant as it ignores the last 3 years of actual player behavior.

#1304
2 minutes ago
Like


actually i agree with this as long as the rewards are of equal merrit and im sorry but giving 25man guilds better gear does not represent that. Even if 10 mans will get the same gear at a slower rate still comes across as a penalty for not raiding 25man


Except there is nothing to worry about for 10 mans. It has been shown already over the course of the last three years that giving the 25 mans more of the same gear has been no incentive whatsoever. For all teh stress of say 10 mans in this thread in relation to the Thunderforged idea, the irony of the idea is that it is exactly the same system we have now - just called different. On top of that, the fact that they drop off of farm bosses means we have just been screwed over with backup raiders and those that need to be geared.

the logistical burden of this change is greater than any possible benefit and considering the benefit isn't a benefit really anyway as we have shown, at the end of the day this change will have nothing but negative impact for 25 man raids.

The thing is, whatever benefit the 25 man's get, as per 10 mans, needs to be different not the same with a balance adjustment.

For example, if you had two completely different thematic designed tier sets between the two sizes. No advantage from a player power point of view, just a very different appearance between the two. This gives different incentives for both raid sizes without advantaging either one. It also means that several groups of 10's can band together to clear out 25 man's when they are able to do so looking for transmog if they want it, and 25 man's can once their mode is done, chase the 10 man content as well. That is one idea.

Another is separating and isolating the achievements. If you get one as a guild on one size, you are locked out of the other. This includes server firsts.

Another is to stop trying to combine the two formats on the Armory. Currently there is no way to distinguish the formats from each other because they are being treated the same. They should have, either by achievements, or kill statistics, the ability to differentiate which mode the guild killed it on.

These will all help but I am not sure if they will go far enough or not. While peopel keep trying to boil the argument down to "rewarding the officers or guild leaders for the work" this is simply not the case and won't work as an incentive. In this case the problem is being looked at by someone already established and is an idea that when you think it through is really terrible.

For instance, if I start getting rewards because I am a 25 man raid leader, two things are going to happen. First I am going to feel incredibly guilty getting things my raiders are not - and I certainly cannot say there are not a significant amount of effort involved from those raiders - and secondly this is going to cause further discord amongst the guild members. Much like this thunderforged idea does.

the second more immediate issue with this line of thinking is that it only works for established guilds. While as an established guild I would be where the target is, the issue is not keeping the current guilds going, it is allowing for new guilds to created. In that instance, the rewards that an officer/GL might get have no bearing other than to further divide those people wanting to form 25 mans. So we might get a few more wanting to start 25 mans, but no one is going to want to play second fiddle. If they are going to go to the effort of helping to get a 25 man up and running, who the !@#$ wants to do that work and only watch one or two people get bonuses?

At the end of the day, think of the work involved to start and run the two sizes of guilds and think of them as weights. 10man have the distinct advantage, which means their weight may be 10 kilos. 25 mans are at a disadvantage, their weight starts at 50 kilos. Having extra loot, has brought the 10 man weight up to 15 kilos, and is not remotely close to balancing them.

The only way they will run concurrently, with both raid sizes being viable options, is for their startup and running costs to be as close to evenly weighted and the sad fact is in order to do that there will be an impact on 10 mans and it is unavoidable. I hate to be blunt here, but anyone thinking that 25 man's can be properly balance with 10 man's without affecting the 10 man's negatively, has been living under a rock the past few years. It has not happened yet, it has not happened through 4 tiers of content and 2 expansions. It is not going to magically happen tomorrow because we wish it were so. As I said earlier, the idea of them being equal was and always has been a pipe dream, and one that has proven itself quite forcefully that will never happen.

That is not to say they were wrong to try - had it worked it would have been really good - but lets be realistic here, it hasn't. In fact the change to raiding in Cataclysm to bring 10 man's into line with 25 was probably the most destructive change to end game raiding in the entire history of this game. No other change can single-handedly hold their hand up and say "it was me that caused the end game raiding numbers to drop by 55%". It was not just, retroactively a bad decision, it was retroactively a disastrous decision, one that without LFR would have brought end game raiding in this game to it's knees. There is a reason that LFR was launched when it was during an expansion. Without LFR attendance in end game raids would have fallen to less than those doing end game raiding in BC.

Now, Blizzard have put themselves between a rock the size of Gibraltar and a hard place the size of a grand canyon and are damned if they do or damned if they don't. One thing that is abundantly clear, and I have already said it once, if they do not make a decision about what they want to do at end game then nothing is going to change and 25 man's will be part of history.

There is only three options. You either decide to support both as viable, and 10 man takes a hit, decide to remove one format or the other in which case whichever gets removed takes a hit or you make one raid size different than they already are in which both sizes takes a hit. No matter which way you go about this merry go round one or both of the raid sizes are going to have to take a hit and there is nothing that anyone can do about it. All that remains is for Blizzard to get off their high horse, stop %^-*ign around with ideas that were terrible (and seriously I saw big problems with this idea of Thunderforged in less than a minute, you had no one, like no one at all that this occured to ???) and make up their bloody mind.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
1785
No it doesn't make you special, however it does make you different from the 10 mans as such they should be separate entities. This problem stems from trying to make them the same in the first place - they were never the same, they never have been the same. If you raid 10 man's you should have different rewards than if you raid 25 mans. It does not mean those have to be item level - there are many examples of how more rewarding both formats could be if you treat them separately.

So no, raiding 25 mans does not make you anymore special than raiding 10 mans, but pretending they are the same and should this be awarded the same is incredibly ignorant as it ignores the last 3 years of actual player behavior.


Excellent, I agree. So it is ok if we award 10 mans higher level loot and 25 mans lower level loot and tune 25 mans to require less dps etc for the lower ilvl loot. This would create a situation where the two formats are separate and have different ilvls of loot.
100 Human Warrior
8835
Please Blizzard just kill both raid sizes and make one raid size that is different from either of the current sizes, 5, 15, 20, 30 does not really matter what you choose but just choose 1 of them. If you make it 15 or 20, you could also potentially also make LFR the same size and then it is hopefully a dead topic, at least for 2-3 expansions.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
1785
There is only three options. You either decide to support both as viable, and 10 man takes a hit, decide to remove one format or the other in which case whichever gets removed takes a hit or you make one raid size different than they already are in which both sizes takes a hit. No matter which way you go about this merry go round one or both of the raid sizes are going to have to take a hit and there is nothing that anyone can do about it. All that remains is for Blizzard to get off their high horse, stop %^-*ign around with ideas that were terrible (and seriously I saw big problems with this idea of Thunderforged in less than a minute, you had no one, like no one at all that this occured to ???) and make up their bloody mind.


I disagree, I just think the paradigm of 25 man raiding needs to change. If they tune 25 man NORMAL mode to just be easier per player than 10 man normal and award the same gear you will see some people flocking to 25 mans. Also, by giving 10 man players the option to run 25 man for extra transmog rewards (and 25 man players to run 10 man content), you will allow players who want to raid more on their mains to raid more. While I agree that it might agitate some 25 man players that 25 man normals are tuned down a bit, it would not effect the hardcore raiders since heroic modes would not be affected. This would also allow more 25 man pugs to form, which incorporates more people on the server.
100 Human Warrior
17810
No it doesn't make you special, however it does make you different from the 10 mans as such they should be separate entities. This problem stems from trying to make them the same in the first place - they were never the same, they never have been the same. If you raid 10 man's you should have different rewards than if you raid 25 mans. It does not mean those have to be item level - there are many examples of how more rewarding both formats could be if you treat them separately.

So no, raiding 25 mans does not make you anymore special than raiding 10 mans, but pretending they are the same and should this be awarded the same is incredibly ignorant as it ignores the last 3 years of actual player behavior.


Excellent, I agree. So it is ok if we award 10 mans higher level loot and 25 mans lower level loot and tune 25 mans to require less dps etc for the lower ilvl loot. This would create a situation where the two formats are separate and have different ilvls of loot.


If *that* is what you took from his post then you doing nothing here but arguing for the sake of arguing.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
No it doesn't make you special, however it does make you different from the 10 mans as such they should be separate entities. This problem stems from trying to make them the same in the first place - they were never the same, they never have been the same. If you raid 10 man's you should have different rewards than if you raid 25 mans. It does not mean those have to be item level - there are many examples of how more rewarding both formats could be if you treat them separately.

So no, raiding 25 mans does not make you anymore special than raiding 10 mans, but pretending they are the same and should this be awarded the same is incredibly ignorant as it ignores the last 3 years of actual player behavior.


Excellent, I agree. So it is ok if we award 10 mans higher level loot and 25 mans lower level loot and tune 25 mans to require less dps etc for the lower ilvl loot. This would create a situation where the two formats are separate and have different ilvls of loot.


LOL I know you're trying to be snarky but you've missed the whole point of the discussion.. but I'll bite....

Tell me how your suggestion makes 25's more attractive and helps those Guilds running the format recruit? It also does nothing to encourage the better Raid and Guild Leaders (a requirement for a successful 25 man progression Guild).

The system in Korea is interesting because it creates an uber level with 25 Hard modes that offers higher rewards. I suggested going a step further and tune 10 Normals down to allow them to act as a logical bridge for LFR players trying to get into organized Raiding. That would keep 10 man Hard modes and 25 man Normals where they are effecting less people.

Some of the other ideas thrown around are great. 25 man only Cauldrons and Feasts. 25 man only HGWT etc. Encourage the better Raid leaders to organize 25 man runs. The lack of good leadership is the hardest void to fill for 25 man Progression.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
01/28/2013 07:20 AMPosted by Numbasix
There is only three options. You either decide to support both as viable, and 10 man takes a hit, decide to remove one format or the other in which case whichever gets removed takes a hit or you make one raid size different than they already are in which both sizes takes a hit. No matter which way you go about this merry go round one or both of the raid sizes are going to have to take a hit and there is nothing that anyone can do about it. All that remains is for Blizzard to get off their high horse, stop %^-*ign around with ideas that were terrible (and seriously I saw big problems with this idea of Thunderforged in less than a minute, you had no one, like no one at all that this occured to ???) and make up their bloody mind.


I disagree, I just think the paradigm of 25 man raiding needs to change. If they tune 25 man NORMAL mode to just be easier per player than 10 man normal and award the same gear you will see some people flocking to 25 mans. Also, by giving 10 man players the option to run 25 man for extra transmog rewards (and 25 man players to run 10 man content), you will allow players who want to raid more on their mains to raid more. While I agree that it might agitate some 25 man players that 25 man normals are tuned down a bit, it would not effect the hardcore raiders since heroic modes would not be affected. This would also allow more 25 man pugs to form, which incorporates more people on the server.


This nonsense again. The issue with 25's is not the difficulty it's the logistics. It's much easier to throw together a 10 man than a 25 man run. No one can argue that. 25's need strong leadership to keep the herd moving. Your suggestion does nada for any of those issues. LFR fixes those issues already by removing all the organizational headaches. Why would Blizzard make a slightly harder version of LFR???

It's ridiculous to think that 25 normals should be a bridge format to get LFR players into organized Raiding when 10 Normal is by far the better choice. If the difficulty of 10 Normal was lowered and the iLevel was lowered it would bring many more players into organized Raiding. Adding an uber hard mode for 25 Heroic like Korea on the other end will encourage the most progressive minded Raid Leaders to run that format. Don't touch 25 Normal or 10 Hard and you effect less of the Raiding player base.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
1785
So I was reading a thread on mmo champion and a person mentioned that content used to be a reward for raiding, but now with the advent of LFR, you will see all the bosses or at least almost all the bosses (albeit for one heroic only boss), just by doing lfr. I agree that most of the mechanics you can ignore, but you can at least see them to some extent. This got me thinking, maybe content could be the reward for doing a specific format.

What I am thinking is instead of doing 12 LFR bosses, make only 9 LFR bosses. Design 1-2 boss fights specifically for 25 man raids, another 1-2 for 10 man raids, and yet another for heroic only raids. Make the different bosses drop different types of loot in 10 and 25 man (perhaps slightly higher ilvl than normal). Allow people to do both 10 and 25 man, but only receive loot once per boss.

While I agree that loot is huge motivating factor, I think content is even more motivating. I remember letting some friends (in guilds that hadn't done much BT) into see Illidan before we killed him after we killed council. It was really awesome for everyone.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
So I was reading a thread on mmo champion and a person mentioned that content used to be a reward for raiding, but now with the advent of LFR, you will see all the bosses or at least almost all the bosses (albeit for one heroic only boss), just by doing lfr. I agree that most of the mechanics you can ignore, but you can at least see them to some extent. This got me thinking, maybe content could be the reward for doing a specific format.

What I am thinking is instead of doing 12 LFR bosses, make only 9 LFR bosses. Design 1-2 boss fights specifically for 25 man raids, another 1-2 for 10 man raids, and yet another for heroic only raids. Make the different bosses drop different types of loot in 10 and 25 man (perhaps slightly higher ilvl than normal). Allow people to do both 10 and 25 man, but only receive loot once per boss.

While I agree that loot is huge motivating factor, I think content is even more motivating. I remember letting some friends (in guilds that hadn't done much BT) into see Illidan before we killed him after we killed council. It was really awesome for everyone.


That was the beauty of TBC. You had content gated behind formats and skill. You had great 10 man only content and great 25 man only content. Both formats could be tuned just for their size.

That was also why it was perfectly normal for Guilds to be on multiple progression points throughout the x-pac. Your story about bringing friends in for Illidan happened a lot and was great. 25's allowed for that once you got past a certain point.

Sadly it wil never happen again. Wrath's dual system was put in place to double dip content and required less dev time. Instead of another Kara in Wrath we got the same content but tuned for 10's. Can you imagine how awesome Azjol Nerub as a 10 man Raid would have been?

This whole thread is fun but just an intellectual exercise. At this stage there's no going back.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
1785
Sadly it wil never happen again. Wrath's dual system was put in place to double dip content and required less dev time. Instead of another Kara in Wrath we got the same content but tuned for 10's. Can you imagine how awesome Azjol Nerub as a 10 man Raid would have been?


I agree Azjol Nerub would have been great as a raid and I still have hopes they will make it a raid. While there is no going back, I do believe there is a solution to this problem that will cause minimal damage to both formats. I really like the idea of having exclusive content within the big raid for normal 10 mans and normal 25 mans. I think it would allow the vast majority of people to do the format they prefer while still allowing those who want to raid more often to raid more often during the week.
90 Pandaren Monk
0
01/26/2013 02:53 AMPosted by Minimerlinx
Hopefully this thread is being read in its entirety by the devs.


I wouldn't count on it. If Blizz was interested in the conversation it would engage in it.
90 Troll Mage
12310
01/28/2013 08:36 AMPosted by Proletari
Hopefully this thread is being read in its entirety by the devs.


I wouldn't count on it. If Blizz was interested in the conversation it would engage in it.


I think they are reading it. Sometimes it is better to observe than take part in conversations (especially since the discussion in this thread so far has been pretty mature and constructive so far - i have been following it since it was on page 5).

Adding Blizzard input will tend to taint the conversation and redirect flow elsewhere. We are better off brainstorming this ourselves.
90 Orc Shaman
13750
01/28/2013 08:36 AMPosted by Proletari
Hopefully this thread is being read in its entirety by the devs.


I wouldn't count on it. If Blizz was interested in the conversation it would engage in it.


If Blizzard wasn't interested they would have let the thread cap.
100 Worgen Death Knight
17630
01/28/2013 06:34 AMPosted by Virtutis
These will all help but I am not sure if they will go far enough or not. While peopel keep trying to boil the argument down to "rewarding the officers or guild leaders for the work" this is simply not the case and won't work as an incentive. In this case the problem is being looked at by someone already established and is an idea that when you think it through is really terrible.


Very true.

As an officer I don't need personal incentives. I need a larger pool to recruit from. I need more people out there who aren't choosing 10m content as the default choice because it's quicker and easier to form a 10m group than to get involved in a 25m group. I need things that clear up this stigma, I don't need someone to give me a "bonus" though.

Just look at the Guild Challenge (Raid) reward. Do a raid in a 10m guild group and you get 1000g, do the same boss in a 25m guild group and you get... 1000g. It's silly, because I'm not after gold for the guild bank, but even something so minor reinforces that there's no actual reason to get those extra people together. Logically you should get 2500g for a 25m boss. But, subconsciously, it's things like this which make people understand that there is no actual reason to do 25m content. We have more expenses (we consume 2.5x the flasks, food, and potions), yet our reward for killing the first raid boss of the week is not 2.5x as great to help defray said costs.

When someone is looking for a guild they should be thinking "I don't care if it's 10 or 25." They should be thinking "Does their raid schedule match my availability?" and "Is their progression commensurate with what I want?" and things like that. The *size* of the raid should not be the primary consideration because that doesn't make sense, nor does it make for good fits. I'm sick of recruiting people who "want to raid 25m" because that doesn't make them a good raider. I want people who can be online for the majority of our raids, who are good raiders, etc. I don't want people who define their allegiance to my guild by the number of people in the raids.

It's a poor way to do recruitment, and it's obvious with the top guilds that it doesn't matter if they're 10 or 25 because they attract the top talent. The average Paragon raider doesn't care if it's 10 or 25. They're there to be the best at what they do. But that doesn't hold true once you are out of the world top 200-250. Once you start working your way into more "average" guilds is exactly where you start to see massive recruitment issues for 25m guilds because everyone and their mother runs a 10m raiding guild.

25m doesn't need, or want, Thunderforged gear.... in fact it should be removed from both difficulties because, as a lot of people have pointed out, it creates a lot of other unwanted side-effects that none of us particularly want to deal with. What 25m needs is something to level the playing field in terms of guild management, logistics, and all that jazz.

You need to look at QoL things like, perhaps, making consumables free to a 25m guild. I don't know if that's the absolute right answer, but what has to happen is that being a part of a 25m guild has some CREATURE COMFORTS that being in a 10m guild doesn't have to balance out the fact that it's far easier to start up and maintain a 10m guild. That is the only way to solve this problem. Throwing a higher chance for Thunderforged gear is not addressing the root of the problem. That is not going to make people want to join a 25m guild because it doesn't address why 25m guilds are keeling over at a breakneck pace.

Treat the sickness, don't treat the symptoms.
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