10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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This thread has been going for quite awhile and I do think 25 mans needs some sort of prestige added to them to help them overall the idea of thunderforge loot is bad. Can we just simply state at this point the idea is bad and move on to some other idea. Every little topic pertaining to 10v25 man has built up here. That can't be a good sign.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
01/28/2013 01:48 PMPosted by Narph
Maybe they'll do that in the next x-pac. If they do I hope it's 20 since that size still allows for a nice class spread.


I really just dont see whatsoever why they would slam the door on both formats at the same time ?


Easier design for an aging game. It's much simpler to design content for one size like they did in TBC and Vanilla. It also minimizes Class balance concerns. Yada yada yada.

Probably won't happen but you can tell the devs know they're doing voodoo right now since the game was designed around a certain number of classes for large scale raids. The more they need to get the end game to work for the smaller format the more sacrifices they need to make to class distinction. That's got to be painful for a creative dev.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9135
SO your trying to hand raids to people on a silver platter nicely done just goes to show if you can rogress pass a boss dont worry blizzards here to give out gear to help you through. jesus i miss aq 40
90 Human Warrior
7940
01/28/2013 01:48 PMPosted by Narph
Maybe they'll do that in the next x-pac. If they do I hope it's 20 since that size still allows for a nice class spread.


I really just dont see whatsoever why they would slam the door on both formats at the same time ?


So that neither side can say the other won the QQ war.
90 Night Elf Mage
9610
Well personally for me. I feel left out in regards to Thunderforged items being more prevalent in 25 man. I say this because I am unable to run 25 man raids cause I lag too much in 25man raids. This is also a problem with other members in my guild. Obviously the simple fix for that would be to build your own tower. However, I don't have the kind of money to just go out and purchase such performance parts to build one. I am having a hard time coming up with a reasonable solution for this.
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
01/28/2013 03:01 PMPosted by Ãshës
Well personally for me. I feel left out in regards to Thunderforged items being more prevalent in 25 man. I say this because I am unable to run 25 man raids cause I lag too much in 25man raids. This is also a problem with other members in my guild. Obviously the simple fix for that would be to build your own tower. However, I don't have the kind of money to just go out and purchase such performance parts to build one. I am having a hard time coming up with a reasonable solution for this.

As someone that does 10s and doesn't care about the gear, I have a question:

Why do you think that 10s should be able to obtain the exact same rewards as 25s?
90 Orc Shaman
13750
01/28/2013 12:30 PMPosted by Minimerlinx
The reason they cannot go back to having 25s as the only premier raiding format is because tons of 25 mans have broken into 10 mans because it gives the same loot with less logistical burden. Now that the damage is done, it would make many people very angry if they undo the change and "force" people back into doing 25 mans to do the most challenging/rewarding content when they are happier doing 10's. IMO they should facilitate 25 mans (by reducing the leadership burdens, as I discussed above) for those who prefer that format without changing the current structure of "equal" 10/25 player raids.


Weren't those same people forced into 10s in the first place? Or rather, weren't different people forced into 10s because they could no longer do 25s for whatever reason?

Why is one forcing right and one wrong? First force wins? That's not very compelling.

Also, what about if they just gave 25s higher loot again, but kept the difficulty the same tuning difficulty for Heroic 10s? 25H would give higher loot, and 10H loot equivalent to 25N again, but 10H would remain as tightly tuned as they are currently. Then the challenge is preserved for those who are looking for it. True, the guys really after just the loot would have to move to 25s again, but oh well.

01/28/2013 01:38 PMPosted by Malchome


Do you consider LFR a legitimate form of raiding that is equal to the current 10/25 normals or heroics? Because claiming that 10's were "progression" back in Wrath is exactly the same as claiming that killing something in LFR is equal to downing the boss on normal+.


For some players yet is it legitimate progression.


No, there's no "progression" in LFR. It's all some players have access to due to time constraints or being bad, but there's no progression.

01/28/2013 03:01 PMPosted by Ãshës
Well personally for me. I feel left out in regards to Thunderforged items being more prevalent in 25 man. I say this because I am unable to run 25 man raids cause I lag too much in 25man raids. This is also a problem with other members in my guild. Obviously the simple fix for that would be to build your own tower. However, I don't have the kind of money to just go out and purchase such performance parts to build one. I am having a hard time coming up with a reasonable solution for this.


WoW is already one of the least performance-required MMOs, though. It seriously doesn't take much to build a computer capable of running WoW. It's not like you have to go buy a $3000 computer.
90 Undead Priest
14805
01/28/2013 03:01 PMPosted by Ãshës
Well personally for me. I feel left out in regards to Thunderforged items being more prevalent in 25 man. I say this because I am unable to run 25 man raids cause I lag too much in 25man raids. This is also a problem with other members in my guild. Obviously the simple fix for that would be to build your own tower. However, I don't have the kind of money to just go out and purchase such performance parts to build one. I am having a hard time coming up with a reasonable solution for this.


I feel bad for that, but why should your lack of computer/money/job/whatever the problem is, make my raiding worse?

And as the guy above said, I ran WoW on a year 2000 Dell until last year just fine raiding in 40man in vanilla and 25man since then. Sure some graphics too a hit, but that doesn't make you unable to play. Really not trying to be a %@*@#!*! on this, just surprising that it's still a complaint with how low the requirements are for this game graphically.
90 Night Elf Mage
9610
01/28/2013 05:14 PMPosted by Telepathy
Well personally for me. I feel left out in regards to Thunderforged items being more prevalent in 25 man. I say this because I am unable to run 25 man raids cause I lag too much in 25man raids. This is also a problem with other members in my guild. Obviously the simple fix for that would be to build your own tower. However, I don't have the kind of money to just go out and purchase such performance parts to build one. I am having a hard time coming up with a reasonable solution for this.


I feel bad for that, but why should your lack of computer/money/job/whatever the problem is, make my raiding worse?

And as the guy above said, I ran WoW on a year 2000 Dell until last year just fine raiding in 40man in vanilla and 25man since then. Sure some graphics too a hit, but that doesn't make you unable to play. Really not trying to be a %@*@#!*! on this, just surprising that it's still a complaint with how low the requirements are for this game graphically.


I get where you are coming from. I was merely stating that 10 man raids should have the same drop rate/drop chances as a 25 man raid for the Thunderforge gear. This is all I was implying. I didn't mean that 25 man raids should become more obsolete and drop less gear or drop gear less frequently.
90 Undead Priest
14805
01/28/2013 05:36 PMPosted by Ãshës


I feel bad for that, but why should your lack of computer/money/job/whatever the problem is, make my raiding worse?

And as the guy above said, I ran WoW on a year 2000 Dell until last year just fine raiding in 40man in vanilla and 25man since then. Sure some graphics too a hit, but that doesn't make you unable to play. Really not trying to be a %@*@#!*! on this, just surprising that it's still a complaint with how low the requirements are for this game graphically.


I get where you are coming from. I was merely stating that 10 man raids should have the same drop rate/drop chances as a 25 man raid for the Thunderforge gear. This is all I was implying. I didn't mean that 25 man raids should become more obsolete and drop less gear or drop gear less frequently.


Well thunderforged should be scrapped because it's trash, but still I got ya!
90 Night Elf Mage
9610
01/28/2013 03:03 PMPosted by Arielle
Well personally for me. I feel left out in regards to Thunderforged items being more prevalent in 25 man. I say this because I am unable to run 25 man raids cause I lag too much in 25man raids. This is also a problem with other members in my guild. Obviously the simple fix for that would be to build your own tower. However, I don't have the kind of money to just go out and purchase such performance parts to build one. I am having a hard time coming up with a reasonable solution for this.

As someone that does 10s and doesn't care about the gear, I have a question:

Why do you think that 10s should be able to obtain the exact same rewards as 25s?


To be honest I don't have an answer to that question without it sounding like an excuse for personal gain. Also realized I made an !@# out of myself. But I think that having the same drop rate/chances for thunderforged gear in 10man and 25 man will help out people who like running 10mans as well. It gives everyone a chance at the same gear with the same odds of getting that gear (only thunderforge specifically)
90 Undead Priest
14805
01/28/2013 05:52 PMPosted by Ãshës

As someone that does 10s and doesn't care about the gear, I have a question:

Why do you think that 10s should be able to obtain the exact same rewards as 25s?


To be honest I don't have an answer to that question without it sounding like an excuse for personal gain. Also realized I made an !@# out of myself. But I think that having the same drop rate/chances for thunderforged gear in 10man and 25 man will help out people who like running 10mans as well. It gives everyone a chance at the same gear with the same odds of getting that gear (only thunderforge specifically)


But the design idea behind Thunderforged items is to give people incentive to run 25s. It obviously doesn't do that, but that was the reason for its being. If everything was just kept status quo, there wouldn't be an incentive gain anywhere.

I do agree 10s need help as well though, so don't think I'm just being a *%%#!%#* for my own format. There are a couple good posts, mostly by a nice gnome, that touch on the issues of 10s caused by LFR. Those issues need addressed as well, they just aren't as urgent as the 25man issue due to sheer number of guilds left.
90 Night Elf Druid
8445
Instead of having the 10m/25m option bring back 25 man raids! Instead of this farce Blizzard should be focusing on better in game tools to get raid groups together, what are our options now Trade channel, and your guild/friends.
90 Gnome Mage
18555

So we've gone on about this for 68 pages, and the general opinion is that Thunderforged is a bad idea in general (10s are unhappy theirs more RNG on loot, 25s are upset because it means more loot drama and creates more problems then it'll ever solve)


This. Most people in this thread agree that Thunderforged items are a bad implementation of the goal to incentivize 25 mans. Let's just agree on that and stop arguing about hypothetical changes to 10/25 mans that aren't going to happen mid-expansion anyways!

Please listen Blizzard! WTB Blue Post!
90 Orc Warlock
13430
I don't think it's a bad idea. Also, for those arguing that it should have the same rate in 10s, I think the whole point of Thunderforged gear is to incentivize 25m, so that's a moot point.

Also, they've put design time and effort into this idea. I'd be highly surprised if they scrapped it without at least testing it for the duration of T15 just because of 68 pages of complaints while basically reiterating the same old 10v25 arguments over and over.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
16020
01/28/2013 05:36 PMPosted by Ãshës


I feel bad for that, but why should your lack of computer/money/job/whatever the problem is, make my raiding worse?

And as the guy above said, I ran WoW on a year 2000 Dell until last year just fine raiding in 40man in vanilla and 25man since then. Sure some graphics too a hit, but that doesn't make you unable to play. Really not trying to be a %@*@#!*! on this, just surprising that it's still a complaint with how low the requirements are for this game graphically.


I get where you are coming from. I was merely stating that 10 man raids should have the same drop rate/drop chances as a 25 man raid for the Thunderforge gear. This is all I was implying. I didn't mean that 25 man raids should become more obsolete and drop less gear or drop gear less frequently.


What you were saying is you want to get the good loot without the problems.

How can you say your computer cant handle 25 mans but you have ran LFR? How many times have you killed sha of Anger? If its more than 0 then why can you do that fight but cant do 25 man fights that are not LFR wuality or lower?
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
16020
01/28/2013 05:52 PMPosted by Ãshës

As someone that does 10s and doesn't care about the gear, I have a question:

Why do you think that 10s should be able to obtain the exact same rewards as 25s?


To be honest I don't have an answer to that question without it sounding like an excuse for personal gain. Also realized I made an !@# out of myself. But I think that having the same drop rate/chances for thunderforged gear in 10man and 25 man will help out people who like running 10mans as well. It gives everyone a chance at the same gear with the same odds of getting that gear (only thunderforge specifically)


This even proves the point more. The reason for thunderforge was to give an incentive for people to stop leaving 25 mans for 10 mans.

You want to get rid of theat and just make it so everyone gets even better gear.

I know its going to sound rude but again most 10 man raiders only care about the gear and not about the quality of the raid. If they made all bosses LoLship difficulty in heroic you would be fine because your getting the gear easier.
90 Night Elf Hunter
18345

I know its going to sound rude but again most 10 man raiders only care about the gear and not about the quality of the raid. If they made all bosses LoLship difficulty in heroic you would be fine because your getting the gear easier.


I find it odd that you are disparaging of 10 man raiders for only caring about loot, when the clarion cry from 25 man raiders for much of this thread is "Bring the Loot ****** back to 25 man raiding with Wrath-style gear levels!!!"
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14320
01/28/2013 08:00 PMPosted by Anza
So with all that's been said can we get some kind of update on blizzards thoughts to all of this? Many people a lot smarter then I am about this stuff have brought up some really great and fantastic suggestions and counter points but considering this was blizzards big announcement topic about this we really haven't herd much at all feedback and I'm sure many of us really would like some at this point. I know, I know, don't ask for a blue response but can we at least find out if our suggestions/comments/ideas are being herd? I'd really hate for 5.2 to go live with such a change that makes absolutely no one happy.


I agree with this, not only do I think that this idea will not work, but it will actually harm the game. Loot is already random enough that there are normal and heroic pieces that I have not seen on my main and I have been raiding since the first week (the shield off of four kings for example, even after using a coin on multiple of those weeks). Now I do not only have to worry about normal loot, but an unpredictable upgrade of that loot, and as raid leader any drama that might occur from someone winning that rare piece that everyone wants.

I know GC has a tweet about looking at loot on a piece by piece basis according to drops. Well this i not how the community at large looks at it. A lot of raiders and websites I know make BiS lists, it's kind of a tradition in WoW, and people look to these lists as goals. If thunderforged gear is as rare as you say, then I highly doubt people will be able to be BiS. Now you may say that is good, and there are some games (like diablo) which are fueled by that idea, but since WoW technically has no "end", people look for small endings/completions during each patch such as getting exalted with a reputation or getting bis.

With the current "Thunderforged" system, it's like saying "Here is a reputation! You will never get exalted, but grind it anyways!" It instills a sense of hopelessness to the gearing process. I much prefer the method of upgrading things through VP on a week by week basis, where you might not have fully upgraded gear, but at least in some sense, you have bis.
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