10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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94 Gnome Warlock
1970
01/29/2013 12:14 AMPosted by Dakkz
I know its going to sound rude but again most 10 man raiders only care about the gear and not about the quality of the raid.


Expecting equal reward for doing equal work doesn't mean all we care about is loot, and claiming that it is 10m raiders who only care about loot at the expense of quality when it's the 25m raiders claiming that 10s should be inferior in both smacks of willful ignorance.
100 Night Elf Warrior
11375
Expecting equal reward for doing equal work


We arent doing equal work, its not because the numbers are proportionally bigger from 10 to 25 man that we are equal. More humans = more possibility of failures, no matter at what level you play.

If everyone in a raid makes 1 raid wiping mistake before we kill the boss, your boss will take 10 attempts, mine will take 25 attempts; and all of my 25 raiders have to go throught those extra 15 attempts because of someone elses mistake; Thats why we just arent equal, and we will never be.
94 Gnome Warlock
1970
01/29/2013 07:19 AMPosted by Narph
If everyone in a raid makes 1 raid wiping mistake before we kill the boss, your boss will take 10 attempts, mine will take 25 attempts;


You can't make this assumption because what would wipe a 10m wouldn't necessarily cause a wipe in 25's due to the abundance of raid cooldown availability and/or damage splitting available. There might be situations where a wipe is more likely to occur than in others (1 person triggering crush vs 1 person missing hidden strike's cleave), but it's not a wholesale guarantee that such a mistake really would trigger a wipe. Beyond that, at this point in time you're talking about skill discrepancies rather than raid format differences, and that's not exactly quantifiable due to the wide range that exists within the raid community (or even within the same raid, depending on their tolerance for such).
100 Night Elf Warrior
11375
Its not about skill Discepancies, everyone makes mistakes, even if the margin of error of the real good player is much smaller than, lets say, me or you.

Raid coldowns and damage splitting arent something that can be used at will on 25man, if you think so, you really need to go back in there, all coldowns are on a very specific coordination for the AoE healing to make sure no one dies, in a very coordinated manner; We have 1 healer calling out all the Devotion Aura; While at same time, I am calling out the banners and the shout of the warriors in rotation, plus maybe a bubble or linking totem depending on wether or not our lead heal considers they need it or not.

This in 10man would : Priest; use bubble, god damn were good!

Theres a lot of mistakes that can happen were a coldown cannot save anyone; by example, ambershaper; mess up the explosion on the adds and it is pretty much a wipe since we need the mana for our healers in p3. Everyone can miss that every now and then. And it is still the same result, in a 10man it will take 10 attempts if everyone misses it once, and it will take 25 attempts for EVERYONE in a 25man.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
01/29/2013 06:57 AMPosted by Bomdanil
I know its going to sound rude but again most 10 man raiders only care about the gear and not about the quality of the raid.


Expecting equal reward for doing equal work doesn't mean all we care about is loot, and claiming that it is 10m raiders who only care about loot at the expense of quality when it's the 25m raiders claiming that 10s should be inferior in both smacks of willful ignorance.


There have been a number of posts outlining why 25's are not only good for the game but why the game was better from a design perspective when 25's were the format the devs balanced around. Whether you agree or not is beside the point. At least there are non-selfish reasons.

The only rebuttal from 10's players is that they would feel slighted with a return to the Wrath model. Nothing about what's good for the game. Just personal gain. I don't see and design advantage to using 10's for balance. The size doesn't help Class homogenization (it brings more) and certainly doesn't allow for diverse encounter mechanics.

Reading GC's Twitter feeds it seems many of the devs feel the same but at this point there's little to be done without a full reversion to Wrath style Raiding.
90 Orc Shaman
13550
01/29/2013 06:57 AMPosted by Bomdanil
I know its going to sound rude but again most 10 man raiders only care about the gear and not about the quality of the raid.


Expecting equal reward for doing equal work doesn't mean all we care about is loot, and claiming that it is 10m raiders who only care about loot at the expense of quality when it's the 25m raiders claiming that 10s should be inferior in both smacks of willful ignorance.


Since you don't care about loot, let's return to the Wrath model and just tighten the tuning in 10s. 10s were the decidedly easier format in Wrath because the fights were tuned at a lower level. If that isn't done this time, it keeps your difficulty intact.
90 Human Mage
11775
Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.


Bad idea. The reason that most of your player base is broken down into 10 man normal and heroic mode groups is because you implemented the changes to the ilvl. If you would have never started the mess in the first place people would have just stayed at the pace they were. In WOTLK there was only 10 man raiding guilds. Yes some people felt FORCED to do 25's but that is the same now that they feel FORCED to only raid with 10 given that 25's provide no added incentive for the most part so their guild has broken down into 10 man groups.

I think seperate lockouts like you did with korea would be a better choice than this. Give people the option to run 10 or 25 or both even for the more hardcore players giving them something to do past tuesday night. As it is now everything is on one lockout. So you clear MSV and ToES on tuesday night either normal or heroic. Your 2nd raid night you clear HoF. What now? Why play the rest of the week? What to do? Dailys, no burnt out. That horse has been beaten dead for months now and frankly is starting to stink of death and decay in my backyard. Instances? okay maybe one or two to finish valor capping after the 2 1/2 hour zerg of all 3 LFR"s. PvP....isn't this still all jacked up and unbalanced. No thanks. GW2 calls...
94 Gnome Warlock
1970
01/29/2013 07:56 AMPosted by Indyana
At least there are non-selfish reasons.


"I want this to go back to how it was because we're not special anymore" isn't a selfish reason? Even if you, personally, did not make that case you can not claim that others debating on how 25's deserve extra freebies just because one or two more people are active in the leadership area, from gear levels to demanding mounts be exclusively theirs, didn't make exactly that charge.

01/29/2013 07:56 AMPosted by Indyana
The only rebuttal from 10's players is that they would feel slighted with a return to the Wrath model.


There have been numerous rebuttals to it, including mine, which addressed why reverting the current paradigm to the old "25's only" model won't work. Even if you completely disregard the personal reasons for not wanting to go back to a 25m only model (which is like asking us to disregard the personal desires and reasons for wanting to "save" a format that is incredibly unpopular format), telling every single person raiding on a realm ranked 100+ that they'll no longer have access to anything more progressive than LFR unless they pay 25-55 dollars for faction and server transfers isn't realistic. Add to that the likelyhood that anyone who does eat such a cost, a cost that would have occured for no reason other than to soothe the sting of egos that stemmed from 25's no longer being the popular format for a few tiers, would just wind up sitting idle on said 25m raid's bench for the majority of the tier without being able to raid elsewhere "just in case"?

I wouldn't see that leading to many happy players, which GC very recently stated in the PTR forum discussing the tier bonuses is what game development is about.

01/29/2013 07:56 AMPosted by Indyana
The size doesn't help Class homogenization (it brings more)


Homogenization happens in a world where players care about "balance" to the exclusion of all else, and people have been whining about how homogenization was killing the game as far back as when Blizzard decided to let druids and paladins do more than stand in a corner and spam their respective dispels and buffs.

01/29/2013 07:56 AMPosted by Indyana
certainly doesn't allow for diverse encounter mechanics.


Except the raids themselves have become more diverse and mechanically engaging since they decided to go with the 10m/25m equality for progression. The fights may not have always been particularly fun (spine), but they're certainly more varied than what existed in BC or even Wrath as far as fight mechanics go.

01/29/2013 07:56 AMPosted by Indyana
Reading GC's Twitter feeds it seems many of the devs feel the same but at this point there's little to be done without a full reversion to Wrath style Raiding.


GC also thinks flying is horrible, that no one wants to play on low pop realms, that 25's don't have any logistical issues that deal with population limitations (i.e. lack of raiders) or recruitment troubles involving barriers to entry, that no one raids 10m because they genuinely prefer the format over 25m, and that MoP dailies were the best thing to ever happen to WoW. This isn't to say that GC is a horrible person to cite for such things, but to say that his opinions about MMOs are mildly dated compared to where the genre has moved to since UO was king would be an understatement on par with saying American Idol "has a few fans".

That and he's also made this comment in the PTR thread a few days back:

01/25/2013 02:01 PMPosted by Ghostcrawler
This is pretty off-topic, but I'll address it anyway. Making good games is about keeping players engaged, about their having fun, their being happy.


I don't see how hamfistedly marching a significant portion of the raiding playerbase into a format that isn't supported by the majority of servers because of the same population limitations (numbers and skill availability) that currently prevent them from being viable outside of servers like Proudmoore or Illidan fulfills any of those three goals.
94 Gnome Warlock
1970
01/29/2013 08:06 AMPosted by Hyjinx
Since you don't care about loot, let's return to the Wrath model and just tighten the tuning in 10s.


This does nothing to address the point that this suggestion forces any 10m raider seeking more than an LFR level experience back into 25m. Why is "kill 10m raiding" the only solution that 25m players are able to come up with?
90 Troll Mage
12310
01/29/2013 08:58 AMPosted by Bomdanil
Since you don't care about loot, let's return to the Wrath model and just tighten the tuning in 10s.


This does nothing to address the point that this suggestion forces any 10m raider seeking more than an LFR level experience back into 25m. Why is "kill 10m raiding" the only solution that 25m players are able to come up with?


It's not; but assuming that the number of interested raiders are constant per faction per server--

Total raiders per fact per serv = total 10 man raider + total 25 man raiders

If you want to entice people into 25 man raiding, it will be at the cost of 10 man raids. See equation above.
94 Gnome Warlock
1970
01/29/2013 09:05 AMPosted by Fayenoor
It's not; but assuming that the number of interested raiders are constant per faction per server--


It isn't though, and that's sort of the issue. Raiding populations migrate upwards, and rarely downstream, because guilds need constant new talent to replace those who leave and players want the ability to progress at the level they're happy with. Even assuming a top guild did leave to go to some backwater place just to show it could be done, they'd either disintegrate or migrate back for the very same reason that people move to those servers in the first place; the skill pool is deeper and allows for an easier level of recruitment.

I do agree with you that if raid populations were more balanced across faction and server then 25's wouldn't have as much trouble forming and staying alive at the lower end of the skill/server spectrum due to the increased player pool being able to support them (note of clarification: I'm not saying they'd be as numerous as 10m's, just that there'd be more of them for people that want to do 25s). However, that's simply not the reality that we're having to deal with right now and, even if it were somehow made to happen, the same population migration that has already/continues to occur would begin again as soon as a new "top server" was established.
Edited by Bomdanil on 1/29/2013 9:23 AM PST
90 Orc Shaman
13550
Since you don't care about loot, let's return to the Wrath model and just tighten the tuning in 10s.


This does nothing to address the point that this suggestion forces any 10m raider seeking more than an LFR level experience back into 25m. Why is "kill 10m raiding" the only solution that 25m players are able to come up with?


Huh? No, it preserves the challenge you're after. The ease or difficulty of a fight depends on how tightly it's tuned and the gear level it's expected to be done at. If you go back to the Wrath model but keep the fights tightly tuned for their item levels, then you keep them difficult.

Difficult is the opposite of an LFR experience, so I have NO IDEA how the hell you came up with that sentence.
Edited by Hyjinx on 1/29/2013 9:24 AM PST
94 Gnome Warlock
1970
01/29/2013 09:23 AMPosted by Hyjinx
No, it preserves the challenge you're after.


I fail to see how. Easier content is easier content regardless of tuning, to whit, normals are easy even in gear that's below their balance level. Would you say that makes them as challenging as heroic modes because both are tuned to their respective ilvl expectations? Of course not, because even when you account for optimal ilvl tuning between them, heroic modes are just naturally harder than their normal mode counterparts.
90 Orc Shaman
13550
01/29/2013 09:36 AMPosted by Bomdanil
No, it preserves the challenge you're after.


I fail to see how. Easier content is easier content regardless of tuning, to whit, normals are easy even in gear that's below their balance level. Would you say that makes them as challenging as heroic modes because both are tuned to their respective ilvl expectations? Of course not, because even when you account for optimal ilvl tuning between them, heroic modes are just naturally harder than their normal mode counterparts.


But my suggestion isn't to make it easier content. It's just to change what gear level the fights are balanced around. 10m Heroics would simply be balanced around a tier lower. Therefore, assuming you were only doing 10s like you want, a 10m Heroic fight would be just as difficult as a 25m Heroic fight. All that would really need to be done is scale the current 10m Heroics down a bit further to account for the difference in item level.

Now, true, if you go into 25s and collect the higher gear, then the fights would be a little less difficult, same as how at my current gear level the MSV Heroics are much easier. But I'm assuming you wouldn't do that because you want to preserve your challenge and it isn't all about loot.

Also, they could keep separate lockouts to heavily discourage players from jumping up to 25s and then back down to 10s.

Basically, I'm proposing to make everything "10m strict" (like in Wrath) for 10s but make the fights more challenging than they were back then.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
At least there are non-selfish reasons.


"I want this to go back to how it was because we're not special anymore" isn't a selfish reason? Even if you, personally, did not make that case you can not claim that others debating on how 25's deserve extra freebies just because one or two more people are active in the leadership area, from gear levels to demanding mounts be exclusively theirs, didn't make exactly that charge.


Those arguing from that position are fools. I'm talking about the game on a macro level. What makes the game better as a whole even if it doesn't necessarily line up with the needs of certain players.

01/29/2013 07:56 AMPosted by Indyana
The only rebuttal from 10's players is that they would feel slighted with a return to the Wrath model.


There have been numerous rebuttals to it, including mine, which addressed why reverting the current paradigm to the old "25's only" model won't work. Even if you completely disregard the personal reasons for not wanting to go back to a 25m only model (which is like asking us to disregard the personal desires and reasons for wanting to "save" a format that is incredibly unpopular format), telling every single person raiding on a realm ranked 100+ that they'll no longer have access to anything more progressive than LFR unless they pay 25-55 dollars for faction and server transfers isn't realistic. Add to that the likelyhood that anyone who does eat such a cost, a cost that would have occured for no reason other than to soothe the sting of egos that stemmed from 25's no longer being the popular format for a few tiers, would just wind up sitting idle on said 25m raid's bench for the majority of the tier without being able to raid elsewhere "just in case"?


Stop resorting to hyperbole. Making 10 Normal easier and 25 Heroic harder with a commensurate change in reward iLevel doesn't change things for someone in a 10 man Guild presently working on Hard modes. Stop comparing it to LFR. Stop worrying about what some random unemployed jacktard thinks about your progression. All that would happen on smaller realms is at least one 25 man Guild would rise from the top leadership on the server. It's Darwinism which is never a bad thing.

I wouldn't see that leading to many happy players, which GC very recently stated in the PTR forum discussing the tier bonuses is what game development is about.


There are always unhappy players. They still play. The devs need to make the game they want and stop worrying about the QQ. If 10's are what they want then just kill 25's and retool the specs so there's more homogenization.

01/29/2013 07:56 AMPosted by Indyana
The size doesn't help Class homogenization (it brings more)


Homogenization happens in a world where players care about "balance" to the exclusion of all else, and people have been whining about how homogenization was killing the game as far back as when Blizzard decided to let druids and paladins do more than stand in a corner and spam their respective dispels and buffs.


You're confusing things. Allowing hybrids to perform better in "pure" roles has been an issue since EQ. Even with the changes to hybrids in TBC then Wrath we had very distinct classes. Cata brought the need for more homogenization to facilitate squeezing 33 specs into 10 Raid slots.

Two very different things.

01/29/2013 07:56 AMPosted by Indyana
certainly doesn't allow for diverse encounter mechanics.


Except the raids themselves have become more diverse and mechanically engaging since they decided to go with the 10m/25m equality for progression. The fights may not have always been particularly fun (spine), but they're certainly more varied than what existed in BC or even Wrath as far as fight mechanics go.


Again you fail to separate natural encounter evolution as the devs learn new tricks from how those encounters are limited because of the need to account for a bastard raid size. Elements like Priest MC on Razzuvious or Mage Tanking on High King come to mind. 25 man progression groups were assumed to have at least one of each class but 10's don't have that luxury. So my argument that 10's limit encounter design is valid.

01/29/2013 07:56 AMPosted by Indyana
Reading GC's Twitter feeds it seems many of the devs feel the same but at this point there's little to be done without a full reversion to Wrath style Raiding.


GC also thinks flying is horrible, that no one wants to play on low pop realms, that 25's don't have any logistical issues that deal with population limitations (i.e. lack of raiders) or recruitment troubles involving barriers to entry, that no one raids 10m because they genuinely prefer the format over 25m, and that MoP dailies were the best thing to ever happen to WoW. This isn't to say that GC is a horrible person to cite for such things, but to say that his opinions about MMOs are mildly dated compared to where the genre has moved to since UO was king would be an understatement on par with saying American Idol "has a few fans".


He's the lead dev. He's talking from a macro perspective on what makes the game better not what makes the game better for you on a micro level. MMO's were always about community and social relations above the RPG aspect. The more we go away from those things even to facilitate players like yourself the more the genre dies.

That and he's also made this comment in the PTR thread a few days back:

01/25/2013 02:01 PMPosted by Ghostcrawler
This is pretty off-topic, but I'll address it anyway. Making good games is about keeping players engaged, about their having fun, their being happy.


So you'd argue that the players are happier today then they were in TBC or even Wrath? Odd that so many realms are dying then. Many times players don't know what they really want (remember the Q for harder Heroics and more CC pre Cata). His quote is dead on but he should have also included that the devs should have a core philosophy and stick to it.

I don't see how hamfistedly marching a significant portion of the raiding playerbase into a format that isn't supported by the majority of servers because of the same population limitations (numbers and skill availability) that currently prevent them from being viable outside of servers like Proudmoore or Illidan fulfills any of those three goals.


So those server are primarily 10 Hard mode instead of 25. Within the server the competition is the same. The only ones who would care are the hard cases who's self worth is based on their iLevel.

I used to joke with an old Raid leader that a successful 25 man Progression Guild needs a combo of mature leadership mixed with a smattering of unemployed adults or socially dysfunctional college kids to make up the core of the roster. Those are the types of player drawn to a change like they have in Korea for good or bad.
Edited by Indyana on 1/29/2013 10:29 AM PST
94 Gnome Warlock
1970
01/29/2013 09:53 AMPosted by Hyjinx
Basically, I'm proposing to make everything "10m strict" (like in Wrath) for 10s but make the fights more challenging than they were back then.


But this means 10m raiders lose access to the hardest content available. Currently the progression path in terms of difficulty is strictly limited by nothing more than the skills of those on a raid team (LFR -> Normal -> Heroic). You're proposing this change to one where raid size is also a factor (LFR < 10N < 10H < 25N < 25H). It's simply not a valid solution because something arbitrary, and often completely out of the hands of the players themselves (i.e. what skill level the player pool on a server is currently at and/or how many raiders actually exist in said pool) is being unnecessarily complicated by a huge degree to account for the increased number in required raiders to access what is currently accessible to us now.
90 Worgen Druid
17805


I fail to see how. Easier content is easier content regardless of tuning, to whit, normals are easy even in gear that's below their balance level. Would you say that makes them as challenging as heroic modes because both are tuned to their respective ilvl expectations? Of course not, because even when you account for optimal ilvl tuning between them, heroic modes are just naturally harder than their normal mode counterparts.


But my suggestion isn't to make it easier content. It's just to change what gear level the fights are balanced around. 10m Heroics would simply be balanced around a tier lower. Therefore, assuming you were only doing 10s like you want, a 10m Heroic fight would be just as difficult as a 25m Heroic fight. All that would really need to be done is scale the current 10m Heroics down a bit further to account for the difference in item level.

But then you're just being silly. It doesn't make any sense for one tier to get higher item levels if the difficulty is equal. (I just learned 25 man guilds don't even pass the light around to clear huddle in terror, you just heal through it, rofl)
Edited by Dysheki on 1/29/2013 10:34 AM PST
90 Troll Mage
12310
Reasons why hardcore casual 25 man raiding is dying
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Most servers can't support 25 man raiding. They don't have enough people interested enough to support 25 man raids.

2) Bubble effect. People interested in 25 man raiding are filtering up to servers which can actually support 25 man raids -- effectively the top 20-25 servers in a region. This further leaves bare servers which are already bare.

3) Logistic nightmare of recruiting is driving more and more guild leaders to quitting guild leadership and seeking regular membership in working 25 man guilds in top servers. Besides one antiquated guild recruitment forum and a feeble ingame recruitment LF guild setup, Blizzard doesnt provide any efficient means for guilds to recruit cross servers.

4) Here's what a recruitment officer usually has to do to recruit from other servers for hardcore casual (middle to lower tier 25 man) guilds--
a) Surf external websites like mmochamp, tankspot, wowhead and internal wow recruitment forums for potential app posts.
b) Post their guild advert spam on the app thread with real-id hoping for a conversation with the app
c) More proavtive recruitment officers will create alts (usually DK) in the applicant's server and send ingame mail to the applicant.
d) My experience has been that usually 1 in 5-10 applicants will get back to you to have a conversation in voice chat or ingame chat.
e) Usually 1 in around 20 apps will end up applying formally. Odds of them being a deserving applicant is even lower.
f) Then comes the big decision for the app -- should I leave this dying guild and dying server to join another dying guild on another dying server. Often times it's left to the salesmanship of the recruitment officer of the guild to sell the guild effectively to the applicant.

5) 25 mans fail to attract the attention of casual or semi casual raiders. Raiding doesnt require extraordinary reflexes at a semi-casual level. All it requires is for the raider to show up on time for raid with flasks and food, gears enchanted and gemmed and reforged correctly, and if possible, 5 mins on youtube watching a simple strat video. These are very basic raid discipline thing that should be ingrained in every raider. It doesnt take much time, 30 min a week max to prepare for raids. And yet, semi casual guilds end up having to police their raiders using addons like phoenixstyle, etc to make sure that their raiders have this basic discipline. Easier solution would be recruit only disciplined raiders. Unfortunately, as mentioned before, with server raiding pop as bad as it is right now, you dont have the luxury to boot people for lack of discipline since in that case you may well end up with having to raid 25 mans with 18-20 people. (We have done that, it's not pretty). So, such 25 man guilds end up with 5-6 "bodies".

6) Other side of the coin is-- kick those dead weights and go down to 10 man. No need for carrying any free loaders. Focus on your progression with your core. No more having to troll servers, forums and websites to recruit people. You can focus on playing the damn game instead and having fun.

7) As a guild master of a 25 man guild which killed pre-nerf M'uru in TBC and now have managed 4/16 heroic only with (18 guildies, 2 applicants and 5 Pugs on Heroic Elegon kill) on the same server, I feel like I am raiding blindfolded, feet and hands tied with a woodpecker pecking at my nuts.

8) All this because there's no interest in 25 mans in a semicasual basis. People get their "large raid" trip from LFR. And 10 mans are so much more smoother and drama free.

In 6+ years of being a guild master and recruiting, I have seen the quality of applicants going down so drastically, that while in Sunwell we used to recruit people who were core minmaxers and even picked up leatherworking just for Brutallus (for drums) to people in MoP who can barely dodge attenuation. Where did all the quality raiders go? Burnt out, retired, moved onto other games or all ended up in top guilds.
90 Orc Warlock
13430
I wasn't around for it but I know GC made a tweet a while back about whether the game was better or not when people didn't expect to get all BiS by the end of a tier. I'd argue that all the theorycrafting about min/maxing and BiS lists creates the most gear problems. You don't see a piece drop and think "oh hey that'd be an upgrade, I hope I get it," you see it and think "OH THAT'S MY BiS I MUST HAVE IT," and something else drops and it's "oh that's not even BiS, what trash."

Not that TC and BiS are bad, they are useful. I just agree with GC that it's created a sense of an "end" to a tier that lies in the gearing process, not the clearing of actual bosses. And now with the introduction of TF gear, people will want to have a full set of tier + TF gear, when that's just not going to be realistic. And that's where the drama comes from.

I'm going to try and look at it as a perk if I get the drop, and if I don't then good for someone else. I just don't believe in "finishing" a gear set in a tier. I believe in finishing the bosses.
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