10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Undead Priest
14805
01/29/2013 01:25 PMPosted by Bomdanil
How do you propose this is done then?


Free transfers and faction swaps. QoL improvements with regard to consumables and getting the raid together (i.e. HGWT being brought back with the stipulation that it only works for groups of 25 players or more, or to have Warlock stones function in that fashion; cauldrons being brought back at a 25m level only). Having cross-realm content runs for current raids so long as they're done at a 25m level.

The goal is to give 25m raiders access to other 25m raiders with a minimum of fuss and anguish, and to make managing those raiders in the run more feasible once you get them there. Hell, even opening up the guild recruitment tool to be region wide if marked as a raiding guild, with the ability to specify that you run 25's so that recruitment can occur in game rather than at places like guildox or WoW progress would at least be something in the right direction (not that anyone uses the damned thing, but that's a whole other complaint).


So something that Blizzard won't do, something that won't bring in new people, some way to get less than 25 people to a raid quicker and a way to kill guilds? All wonderful ideas. I'm glad they will help.

As I've covered in a few earlier posts. 25man guilds already have access to 25man raiders. 25man raiders only raid 25mans, thus they are playing in a 25man guild or have quit. What 25man guilds need is access to swing players. Those are players that have no real care which format they do, they just want the one that makes the most sense to them. Players currently in 10s due to least resistance. That is not the same as all 10s players or players in 10s because they want to be with friends or random various reasons. Players who want to do 10s, should always do 10s. Players who don't care one way or the other should be pushed towards 25s, then they can work their way down the difficulty scale if they see fit.

Free transfers won't ever happen due to exploitability with moving gold cross servers many times etc etc. That along with server transfers being a huge part of Blizzard's income apparently.

QoL changes will keep players in 25s long, but will not add new ones. A couple hundred gold a night and a saved trip to the AH is going to make you leave you stable 10man guild for an unstable 25man guild? Really? That is going to do it? It might make current 25man guilds try to hold out a touch longer, but the end result will be the same.

HGWT is a nice thing, but not a format saving ability.

Cross realm raiding... while it might solve some short term issues, it would be devastating for the game. It would take out being in a guild from the game. Guild perks, guild rep, all of that would be gone. A huge aspect of what it means to raid and play an MMORPG in general would vanish.
90 Tauren Warrior
9595
01/29/2013 01:31 PMPosted by Dysheki
I have yet to hear of a story that says: "We couldn't raid because everyone left to do 10s."


I couldnt raid anything because people split down to tens. Got sick of tens and had to pay 300 bucks to xfer everyone to Mal'ganis.

There is your story, good old Moonrunner horde.
90 Undead Priest
14805
Grats? So because your guild didn't have the issue, it is impossible for other guilds to have it and have it majorly impact them?

That logic is quite amazing.

I have yet to hear of a story that says: "We couldn't raid because everyone left to do 10s." There are people that are saying they think this is what is happening, but I have yet to see anyone with any direct evidence. All they are is complaining about a small pool of recruits and put the blame on 10s when maybe the people are happier to play 10s and shouldn't be forced to play 25s to maximize your character's potential. And who is to blame them if they are? Why are you forcing people to have to go back to 25s and make it the 'premier' tier of raiding when they're enjoying what they're doing? I don't want to go back. I'm fine how it is. If they try to force people back to 25s by only allowing maximum potential to be reached if you raid 25s I'll quit. I want to have fun and I currently have more fun in a 10 man raid setting.

I'm coming in here with experience on why my guild no longer does heroic 25 raiding. It's a fact. What you say about other guilds is pure conjecture.


Or it's what happened to my guild? Actually 3 times now. First time early Cata, second time in FL and 3rd time now. First time was a pure 10man group leaving. Lost 11 players at once for it. Thankfully it was at the start of an xpac so we could limp along with all the randoms coming back but still a big hit. FL was only about 5-6 iirc. They got tried of under preforming and left together. This most recent time isn't an all at once kind of thing. We've slowly been losing players to it. Hell, some of them just stopped doing 25s with us so they can do an "alt" 10s run on the weekends with other guildies that is nearing our progress after 3 weeks.

There is no way to answer your question either. Neither side can say anything on the matter. It is purely conjecture at this point. I can say all I want that people are happier in 10s or that people are forced in to 10s and would rather do 25s. We have no idea. The only real way to test the theory is to make content truly equal, which as stated by many in this thread is impossible due to the nature of each.

So all you have is what you personally want and know. That's great you have fun in your 10s, keep doing it. I'm not having fun in my 25s. That is mostly due to the ease of 10s taking a vast majority of raiders.

The long story short of this whole thing is that even when 10s were at their absolute worst, ie TBC, there was never a risk of the format dying out due to the ease of setting them up. 25s right now are on the brink of death due to the difficulty of sustainability with there being an ever present option of an easier format offering the same reward.
100 Gnome Warlock
3515
01/29/2013 02:00 PMPosted by Telepathy
So something that Blizzard won't do, something that won't bring in new people, some way to get less than 25 people to a raid quicker and a way to kill guilds? All wonderful ideas. I'm glad they will help.


You asked me what I felt would help keep, or increase, the viability of 25's. You didn't ask for solutions that I think Blizzard would happily roll over and implement immediately. As far as Blizzard is concerned 25's aren't struggling to build new groups because of logistics or recruitment difficulties (why they feel this way when it's the central complaint in every single "save 25m raiding" thread or comment I've ever seen I've no idea), it's purely an incentives issue. Until they realise that it's because keeping and maintaining a 25m guild is 1) not fun and 2) suffering from a lack of QoL and modernization issues which lead into/exacerbate point 1, it's unlikely that we'll see them implement a change that will actually fix what you and Indy want fixed.

01/29/2013 02:00 PMPosted by Telepathy
QoL changes will keep players in 25s long, but will not add new ones.


Stopping the bleeding is one of the first steps to saving the patient. It also wasn't meant as a stand alone solution, but something implemented on top of other changes made to improve access to raiders.

01/29/2013 02:00 PMPosted by Telepathy
A huge aspect of what it means to raid and play an MMORPG in general would vanish.


Cataclysm, specifically T12, was the first time I was actually joined the guild I raided with, and even that wasn't until after I'd been running with them for two months or so prior, so I'm not sure I agree that the guild is as crucial an aspect of raiding as you feel it is so much as feeling comradery with those whom you do raid with. Again, just a difference of perspective. Disagreements there aside, my goals with those suggestions were twofold; 1) make it easier to manage herding ca... 25m raiding, and 2) expand the pool of raiders from "people who prefer 25's on my server and faction" to "people who prefer 25's on my faction". Which goes to this:

01/29/2013 02:00 PMPosted by Telepathy
25man guilds already have access to 25man raiders.


Apparently not, because people are complaining about how they can't raid 25s despite wanting to precisely because of the limitations enforced on them via things like the cost of faction transfers and/or the lack of access to such on a server that they're otherwise happy with. So I ask if the tools were made available to you so that you could raid with Jimmy Bob the 25m raider from Shadow Council to help fill one more hole in your roster on Greymane, why wouldn't you want to take advantage of that?
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455

Apparently not, because people are complaining about how they can't raid 25s despite wanting to precisely because of the limitations enforced on them via things like the cost of faction transfers and/or the lack of access to such on a server that they're otherwise happy with. So I ask if the tools were made available to you so that you could raid with Jimmy Bob the 25m raider from Shadow Council to help fill one more hole in your roster on Greymane, why wouldn't you want to take advantage of that?


It still wouldn't address the leadership issue. Even if players wanted to do 25's someone needs to run those Raids. Many of them left after Cata because for good or bad they did what they did because of the prestige. Prestige on their server and prestige in the general WOW landscape. I personally know 3 great Raid leaders who quit because of what they saw in Cata.

Why shouldn't there be a format that offers the highest prestige for that type of player? All your arguments sound like the players who complain that their progression is gated because of xx reason. They don't have time, the kids, work, schedule commitment etc. So they're stuck in LFR. You're in the same boat as them except there's no one above you anymore and you want to keep it that way even though there are players who desire the challenge you find too cumbersome.
90 Orc Shaman
13550
Stopping the bleeding is one of the first steps to saving the patient. It also wasn't meant as a stand alone solution, but something implemented on top of other changes made to improve access to raiders.


Sometimes you need to take simultaneous actions to save a patient.

Also, I still want to know how going back to a Wrath format or modified Wrath format would "kills 10s" when we know that both formats were very successful in that expansion.
90 Undead Priest
14805
01/29/2013 02:56 PMPosted by Bomdanil
You asked me what I felt would help keep, or increase, the viability of 25's. You didn't ask for solutions that I think Blizzard would happily roll over and implement immediately. As far as Blizzard is concerned 25's aren't struggling to build new groups because of logistics or recruitment difficulties (why they feel this way when it's the central complaint in every single "save 25m raiding" thread or comment I've ever seen I've no idea), it's purely an incentives issue. Until they realise that it's because keeping and maintaining a 25m guild is 1) not fun and 2) suffering from a lack of QoL and modernization issues which lead into/exacerbate point 1, it's unlikely that we'll see them implement a change that will actually fix what you and Indy want fixed.


Keeping and maintaining a guild isn't about keeping the leadership happy. It's about keeping the apps coming in and current raiders showing up. Blizzard thinks the best way to do this is loot based. While I disagree with the implementation of it, the idea is right. The average raid is what needs the bonus because they keeps things moving for the officer group.

Officers QoL is based upon how the guild is going. Are we progressing, is there drama, do we need to recruit xxxx for xxx spot, etc etc. Progression normally keeps drama down. Progression keeps people showing up, normally, as well as making it better for recruiting. To progress, you need a guild to show up each night, do their jobs well and not get discouraged by wipes and missed nights.

tl;dr - Happy raiders is all the QoL an officer needs to keep going.
85 Tauren Druid
5485
When does 5.2 comes out?
90 Worgen Mage
15160

I have yet to hear of a story that says: "We couldn't raid because everyone left to do 10s." There are people that are saying they think this is what is happening, but I have yet to see anyone with any direct evidence. All they are is complaining about a small pool of recruits and put the blame on 10s when maybe the people are happier to play 10s and shouldn't be forced to play 25s to maximize your character's potential. And who is to blame them if they are? Why are you forcing people to have to go back to 25s and make it the 'premier' tier of raiding when they're enjoying what they're doing? I don't want to go back. I'm fine how it is. If they try to force people back to 25s by only allowing maximum potential to be reached if you raid 25s I'll quit. I want to have fun and I currently have more fun in a 10 man raid setting.

I'm coming in here with experience on why my guild no longer does heroic 25 raiding. It's a fact. What you say about other guilds is pure conjecture.


Or it's what happened to my guild? Actually 3 times now. First time early Cata, second time in FL and 3rd time now. First time was a pure 10man group leaving. Lost 11 players at once for it. Thankfully it was at the start of an xpac so we could limp along with all the randoms coming back but still a big hit. FL was only about 5-6 iirc. They got tried of under preforming and left together. This most recent time isn't an all at once kind of thing. We've slowly been losing players to it. Hell, some of them just stopped doing 25s with us so they can do an "alt" 10s run on the weekends with other guildies that is nearing our progress after 3 weeks.


From an application to us submitted yesterday:

Things went okay for a little while until they decided to swap to 10man leaving most of the raid team having to find a new guild which is why i transferred to ------------- to join ------------ on -------------. Another guild where things were going great until they swapped to 10man and left 15 raiders in the lurch. Myself being one of them.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455


From an application to us submitted yesterday:

Things went okay for a little while until they decided to swap to 10man leaving most of the raid team having to find a new guild which is why i transferred to ------------- to join ------------ on -------------. Another guild where things were going great until they swapped to 10man and left 15 raiders in the lurch. Myself being one of them.


Yep...another issue with the Cata change. It marginalized many lower tier 25 man players to the LFR ghetto. One of the dumbest moves the devs ever came up with.
100 Gnome Warlock
3515
01/29/2013 03:11 PMPosted by Indyana
All your arguments sound like the players who complain that their progression is gated because of xx reason.


I've never seen anyone claim that LFR is their only access to current content raiding because their server can't viably or functionally field even one progression capable 10m, and if they ever did make such a claim it would be readily disproven since there isn't a single US server that doesn't have at least 1 10m raid working current content. Conversely, there are numerous servers who don't have the ability to sustain and viably support a progression driven 25m raid due to the lack of raid talent on the server (including my own).

01/29/2013 03:11 PMPosted by Indyana
You're in the same boat as them except there's no one above you anymore and you want to keep it that way even though there are players who desire the challenge you find too cumbersome.


I'd happily accept, and even participate in, an uber-heroic difficulty for players that find heroic modes too easy, just not at my personal expense. Call it selfish if you want, but I'd consider it more selfish to expect people to have to fork out an extra 60 dollars per alt just to get to a server that can sustain a 25m raid community if they wanted to do more than LFR/easy mode quality raiding.

01/29/2013 03:24 PMPosted by Hyjinx
Also, I still want to know how going back to a Wrath format or modified Wrath format would "kills 10s" when we know that both formats were very successful in that expansion.


Considering it would completely remove 10's from the progression cycle, going to a Wrath style system would do more harm to 10's than simply opening up progression to 10s has done to 25s. In the latter situation 20% of raiders still run 25's, and more would do so if costs weren't prohibitive (i.e transfers or current content X-realm), but in the former there would be no more progressive 10m raiding because 10m's would no longer be considered progression.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
All your arguments sound like the players who complain that their progression is gated because of xx reason.


I've never seen anyone claim that LFR is their only access to current content raiding because their server can't viably or functionally field even one progression capable 10m, and if they ever did make such a claim it would be readily disproven since there isn't a single US server that doesn't have at least 1 10m raid working current content. Conversely, there are numerous servers who don't have the ability to sustain and viably support a progression driven 25m raid due to the lack of raid talent on the server (including my own).


Read the forums for a week and tell me there aren't continuous threads about how unfair it is for non-Raiders. These people do LFR/Heroics/Dailies but feel left behind by the way rewards are divvied out. I'm not saying that I agree with them just that their saying the same thing as you. They want their progression to matter but they don't have the time, social skills or whatever for organized runs.

I also highly doubt that even the smallest pop server (and I'm not talking Ally on Mal'Ganis levels) can't support at least one 25 man Guild. A reversion to the Wrath format would get at least one former 25 man Guild/Raid Leader to start up again and he would be able to attract the most progression centric players from the server. The issue on small servers isn't the dearth of players it's there are too many Guilds. This would just be Darwinism at play which is good for the game.

01/29/2013 03:24 PMPosted by Hyjinx
Also, I still want to know how going back to a Wrath format or modified Wrath format would "kills 10s" when we know that both formats were very successful in that expansion.


Considering it would completely remove 10's from the progression cycle, going to a Wrath style system would do more harm to 10's than simply opening up progression to 10s has done to 25s. In the latter situation 20% of raiders still run 25's, and more would do so if costs weren't prohibitive (i.e transfers or current content X-realm), but in the former there would be no more progressive 10m raiding because 10m's would no longer be considered progression.


It's arguable that there's such a thing as progression 10 mans now. It certainly doesn't feel like it did in Wrath and earlier. As long as the two sizes exist there will always be questions about the legitimacy of the smaller size. Until there are separate Achievements (at least) the general WOW populace will never look at 10 man Progression the same way they looked at general Raid progress in Wrath or TBC.

It's Darwinism again. A Korean model would attract a certain type of player. Probably at the expense of Guilds with the weakest leadership. Basically the reverse of what we saw play out in Cata.

I still haven't seen one non selfish reason from anyone as to how the changes we saw in Cata made the game better.
Edited by Indyana on 1/29/2013 6:31 PM PST
85 Tauren Druid
10075
Wow a popular thread don't yall know blizz ignores these....haha
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
I also highly doubt that even the smallest pop server (and I'm not talking Ally on Mal'Ganis levels) can't support at least one 25 man Guild. A reversion to the Wrath format would get at least one former 25 man Guild/Raid Leader to start up again and he would be able to attract the most progression centric players from the server. The issue on small servers isn't the dearth of players it's there are too many Guilds. This would just be Darwinism at play which is good for the game.


Again, I'll come back to reward structure, and what incentives there are to do normal 25s over heroic 10s. The best gear, the best vanity rewards, are all heroic 10s and not in 25 normals.
85 Tauren Druid
10075
Dont yall know blizz is like the US poloticians they ignore the 85% who want it to be like bc with not having shared lockouts and 25s offering better loot . They would rather pander to the selfish that gears 1 main and 2 alts by doing 3 groups of 10mans with homogenized class makeup pandering to them bc all classes have everything now. sorry bout spelling
Edited by Jazenfek on 1/29/2013 7:03 PM PST
100 Gnome Warlock
3515
01/29/2013 06:30 PMPosted by Indyana
I also highly doubt that even the smallest pop server (and I'm not talking Ally on Mal'Ganis levels) can't support at least one 25 man Guild.


Then you aren't paying attention to how the raiding population has distributed itself.

01/29/2013 06:30 PMPosted by Indyana
I still haven't seen one non selfish reason from anyone as to how the changes we saw in Cata made the game better.


That's because you reject anything that doesn't jive with your point of view as being "selfish", and dismiss it out of hand when people demonstrate that your claims are false (i.e. that raid encounters were more complex/mechanically advanced in BC/Wrath than they were in Cataclysm or today). But lets ignore that you refuse to acknowledge contrary evidence or arguments for now and pretend that the only motives against 25's becoming the only raid format are selfish ones.

Who cares? Pushing that no 10m raider should be allowed access to current, progression content because "But we're not as special anymore :'(" comes off as just as, if not much more, selfish than those trying to argue against taking a massive step backwards for nothing but ego soothing.
90 Worgen Mage
15160
01/29/2013 07:16 PMPosted by Bomdanil
I also highly doubt that even the smallest pop server (and I'm not talking Ally on Mal'Ganis levels) can't support at least one 25 man Guild.


Then you aren't paying attention to how the raiding population has distributed itself.

I still haven't seen one non selfish reason from anyone as to how the changes we saw in Cata made the game better.


That's because you reject anything that doesn't jive with your point of view as being "selfish", and dismiss it out of hand when people demonstrate that your claims are false (i.e. that raid encounters were more complex/mechanically advanced in BC/Wrath than they were in Cataclysm or today). But lets ignore that you refuse to acknowledge contrary evidence or arguments for now and pretend that the only motives against 25's becoming the only raid format are selfish ones.

Who cares? Pushing that no 10m raider should be allowed access to current, progression content because "But we're not as special anymore :'(" comes off as just as, if not much more, selfish than those trying to argue against taking a massive step backwards for nothing but ego soothing.


The first tier of raiding in Cataclysm was no different than the final tier of raiding in WotLK. 10 mans had their difficulty bumped to 25 level which gave the illusion the raids were suddenly harder, or took more coordination. A someone who raided all tiers including heroic in both expansion, that just isn't the case.

You talk about a massive step backwards. I suppose if you are referring simply to the passing of time that statement would be accurate, but if you are talking about allowing more people access to experience end game content, and encouraging people to get into guild related end game raiding, then the current system was the biggest "giant step backwards" that Blizzard could have possibly implemented and the raiding numbers show it.

The thing is, I understand that some people prefer to have the 10 man content and get the good rewards - I understand that entirely - but as long as you and everyone else also understands that the costs of giving you that content were severe and not positive to end game. In fact without the LFR, designed specifically to replace the whole left in 10 mans difficulty increase, end game raiding numbers would have rivaled Sunwells in Dragon Soul and there is no amount of constant posting defending 10 mans that you can do that will convince me that this was a good thing for the game.

Many of you go on and on about 25 players "whining" and only being interested in themselves. Let's not forget the cost to the game to implement the wonderful system we have in place now. Also, historically speaking it has been shown in every expansion where 25 man was dominant compared to every expansion where 10 man was dominant, the nd game normal and heroic raiding numbers were substantially better when 25 man was the dominant form, so if, truth be told, your interest is in the best interests of the game, and not personal opinion, then yes - that is exactly the kind of style the end game should go back to.
90 Undead Priest
14805
01/29/2013 07:16 PMPosted by Bomdanil
I also highly doubt that even the smallest pop server (and I'm not talking Ally on Mal'Ganis levels) can't support at least one 25 man Guild.


Then you aren't paying attention to how the raiding population has distributed itself.

I still haven't seen one non selfish reason from anyone as to how the changes we saw in Cata made the game better.


That's because you reject anything that doesn't jive with your point of view as being "selfish", and dismiss it out of hand when people demonstrate that your claims are false (i.e. that raid encounters were more complex/mechanically advanced in BC/Wrath than they were in Cataclysm or today). But lets ignore that you refuse to acknowledge contrary evidence or arguments for now and pretend that the only motives against 25's becoming the only raid format are selfish ones.

Who cares? Pushing that no 10m raider should be allowed access to current, progression content because "But we're not as special anymore :'(" comes off as just as, if not much more, selfish than those trying to argue against taking a massive step backwards for nothing but ego soothing.


He said encounters were less complex than they could have been. That is not the same as less complex as TBC/Wrath. I don't think anyone would argue that encounters then were more complex. Parts of them were but not overall. Nowadays, they have learned more and could make much more complex encounters if they were allowed to make class specific parts of each encounter.

They can't make things that take mage/lock tanks, they can't make something that requires hunter pets to tank or that require bops or that require mass dispel. Things like Nef class calls won't make a comeback ever. While those things are hugely amazing, adding them to a normal complex fight would be nice.

No one is asking for 10s to be limited from current content. They are asking for 10s current content to be different from 25s current content. It doesn't change what is current, it just changes who does what. This kind of issue is something that came fully from Cata with how if you weren't raiding new content when it was first released, you'd be behind. That is something Blizzard said they don't like and want to change. This would be a change in that direction.
90 Orc Shaman
13550
Considering it would completely remove 10's from the progression cycle, going to a Wrath style system would do more harm to 10's than simply opening up progression to 10s has done to 25s. In the latter situation 20% of raiders still run 25's, and more would do so if costs weren't prohibitive (i.e transfers or current content X-realm), but in the former there would be no more progressive 10m raiding because 10m's would no longer be considered progression.


I imagine that everyone who raided 10m strict would like to argue with you about 10s being progression.

Percentages, huh? I notice you didn't bother to distinguish that 20% of 25s as progression. That means 20% of raiders are in 25s at all, including progression. Do you have any numbers on what % of raiders were doing 10s in Wrath? Not progression, just 10s. Actually, include the 10m strict numbers too, if you have them.

Anyway, I keep trying to present to you a format where 10s could still have that progressive feel.. but you keep shooting it down. Apparently you want not just progression, but to be recognized for it. However, you don't get recognized for it now, so what exactly would be changing? Your perception? Forgive me for not really caring about your perception.
100 Gnome Warlock
3515
01/29/2013 09:13 PMPosted by Hyjinx
Forgive me for not really caring about your perception.


I forgive you because it's how I feel about the minority of 25m raiders who think their ego is justification for ruining game access for the other 350k of us that don't run 25m raids.
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