10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Worgen Druid
17805
01/29/2013 08:51 PMPosted by Telepathy
He said encounters were less complex than they could have been. That is not the same as less complex as TBC/Wrath. I don't think anyone would argue that encounters then were more complex. Parts of them were but not overall. Nowadays, they have learned more and could make much more complex encounters if they were allowed to make class specific parts of each encounter.

I'm gonna disagree requiring a lock/mage tank makes anything more complex. It makes it more annoying to make sure you have a specific class to complete an encounter, not more complex. Not to say BC bosses weren't complex at all (end-raid bosses in TK/SSC were), but for the most part they weren't.

Requiring 5 shamans in a raid for heroism to beat the dps check isn't difficult content: it's silly content.

01/29/2013 08:51 PMPosted by Telepathy
No one is asking for 10s to be limited from current content. They are asking for 10s current content to be different from 25s current content.

I don't see why they need to be different. At all.
Edited by Dysheki on 1/30/2013 6:20 AM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
Forgive me for not really caring about your perception.


I forgive you because it's how I feel about the minority of 25m raiders who think their ego is justification for ruining game access for the other 350k of us that don't run 25m raids.


You're lumping everyone in with yourself. Many 10 man players just follow along with the leadership that's been successful for them. I'd say a good chunk just go where the top loot is and don't care about the format. Just because 25's are anathema to you doesn't mean you speak for the general player base.

You love hyperbole. "Ruining game access"??

Posted by Indyana
I also highly doubt that even the smallest pop server (and I'm not talking Ally on Mal'Ganis levels) can't support at least one 25 man Guild.


Then you aren't paying attention to how the raiding population has distributed itself.


So your saying that 2 10 man Guilds couldn't merge to make a 25? The issue is there are too many Guilds vying for a smaller player pool. Kill off some of those Guilds and you could support multiple 25's.
Edited by Indyana on 1/30/2013 6:37 AM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
He said encounters were less complex than they could have been. That is not the same as less complex as TBC/Wrath. I don't think anyone would argue that encounters then were more complex. Parts of them were but not overall. Nowadays, they have learned more and could make much more complex encounters if they were allowed to make class specific parts of each encounter.

I'm gonna disagree requiring a lock/mage tank makes anything more complex. It makes it more annoying to make sure you have a specific class to complete an encounter, not more complex. Not to say BC bosses weren't complex at all (end-raid bosses in TK/SSC were), but for the most part they weren't.


The point is the devs are limited in what they can offer as content because they can't assume you'd have a specific class in a 10 man. The need to balance 10's limits what the devs can do and creates class homogenization. It's an aberrant format.

If the game had been designed from the ground up with that Raid size then it would be different but that's not the case. Making 10's equal to 25's means the devs need to balance 33 specs to work in 10 Raid slots. It's bad for the game.
Edited by Indyana on 1/30/2013 6:35 AM PST
90 Worgen Druid
17805
01/30/2013 06:35 AMPosted by Indyana

I'm gonna disagree requiring a lock/mage tank makes anything more complex. It makes it more annoying to make sure you have a specific class to complete an encounter, not more complex. Not to say BC bosses weren't complex at all (end-raid bosses in TK/SSC were), but for the most part they weren't.


The point is the devs are limited in what they can offer as content because they can't assume you'd have a specific class in a 10 man. The need to balance 10's limits what the devs can do and creates class homogenization. It's an aberrant format.

If the game had been designed from the ground up with that Raid size then it would be different but that's not the case. Making 10's equal to 25's means the devs need to balance 33 specs to work in 10 Raid slots. It's bad for the game.

But again, they are not limiting complexity one bit. IMO fights in general are more complex than they used to be.

You could say class homogenization is at an all time high, and I wouldn't necesarily disagree with you. But the mass recruitment for shamans to clear Sunwell wasn't good design. They're trying to find a balance. So instead of having a mage tank based on spellsteal, they would instead now design an encounter to give one person the debuff based on something they did rather than a class ability. It changes absolutely nothing. What is the difference if you have a mage that can spellsteal or have someone that can macro their ExtraActionButton1 to a keybind? It allows for flexibility and does not change the complexity one bit.
90 Orc Shaman
13750
Forgive me for not really caring about your perception.


I forgive you because it's how I feel about the minority of 25m raiders who think their ego is justification for ruining game access for the other 350k of us that don't run 25m raids.


Very ironic post, considering your ego is the primary motivation behind nearly everything you've posted.

Ego isn't the basis for the proposition that 25s should have access to better loot. It's just that it's the only system we know that actually works. I've said that a possible solution to keep you happy is tighter tuning, which would result in more difficult fights for the item level you do the fights at. But you're against that because your ego won't allow you to be anywhere except where you're getting the absolute best reward, regardless of challenge. You wanting challenge is just a facade. That isn't true for someone like me that's raiding 25s simply because I enjoy the epic feel of a larger raid.

Also, again, how can a Wrath format or modified Wrath format possibly be "ruining game access" for 10s when we know that both formats thrived in that expansion? If anything, it's the current system that has ruined game access to 25s.
Edited by Hyjinx on 1/30/2013 8:19 AM PST
100 Night Elf Warrior
11375
Very ironic post, considering your ego is the primary motivation behind nearly everything you've posted.

Ego isn't the basis for the proposition that 25s should have access to better loot. It's just that it's the only system we know that actually works. I've said that a possible solution to keep you happy is tighter tuning, which would result in more difficult fights for the item level you do the fights at. But you're against that because your ego won't allow you to be anywhere except where you're getting the absolute best reward, regardless of challenge. You wanting challenge is just a facade. That isn't true for someone like me that's raiding 25s simply because I enjoy the epic feel of a larger raid.

Also, again, how can a Wrath format or modified Wrath format possibly be "ruining game access" for 10s when we know that both formats thrived in that expansion? If anything, it's the current system that has ruined game access to 25s.


@Bombadil

I find it very ironic as well, that you just completely by passed his argument that the game was in a much more healthy form whenever the 25man mode was the highest mode you could be in. And this is a fact.

Also, I really dont see what would be the problem with 10man receiving lesser ilevel items and lower difficulty to compensante for all the difficulties of running a 25man especially if you do something *A la Algalon* where all achivements are locked to a certain Ilevel.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455


The point is the devs are limited in what they can offer as content because they can't assume you'd have a specific class in a 10 man. The need to balance 10's limits what the devs can do and creates class homogenization. It's an aberrant format.

If the game had been designed from the ground up with that Raid size then it would be different but that's not the case. Making 10's equal to 25's means the devs need to balance 33 specs to work in 10 Raid slots. It's bad for the game.

But again, they are not limiting complexity one bit. IMO fights in general are more complex than they used to be.

You could say class homogenization is at an all time high, and I wouldn't necesarily disagree with you. But the mass recruitment for shamans to clear Sunwell wasn't good design. They're trying to find a balance. So instead of having a mage tank based on spellsteal, they would instead now design an encounter to give one person the debuff based on something they did rather than a class ability. It changes absolutely nothing. What is the difference if you have a mage that can spellsteal or have someone that can macro their ExtraActionButton1 to a keybind? It allows for flexibility and does not change the complexity one bit.


You're confusing the natural evolution of encounter complexity with how 10's limit design choice just like Bombadil. The devs have been able to make encounters more complex because the game keeps advancing. It doesn't change the fact that 10's limit the options available to those devs.

Don't you see that having some random Buff any class can get isn't the same as using a unique class skill in an encounter? That one not only allows for diverse class skills but integrates those skills into the encounter mechanics while the other winds up just being a button to press? This goes to the core of why the game isn't as good as it used to be. For all the improved models and greta artwork the game as a whole is not as engaging.
90 Worgen Druid
17805
01/30/2013 09:56 AMPosted by Indyana
It doesn't change the fact that 10's limit the options available to those devs.

No, I disagree. I agree that 10s have created a need for homogenization, but not a need to lower raid complexity. Not one bit.

01/30/2013 09:56 AMPosted by Indyana
Don't you see that having some random Buff any class can get isn't the same as using a unique class skill in an encounter? That one not only allows for diverse class skills but integrates those skills into the encounter mechanics while the other winds up just being a button to press? This goes to the core of why the game isn't as good as it used to be. For all the improved models and greta artwork the game as a whole is not as engaging.

It's a button to press either way. I don't see how making it a specific class ability is any different besides adding a little flavor. Would you rather us go back to the Sunwell model where everyone is looking for a shaman so each group can have hero/bloodlust? Would you like if you only had one mage in your 25 man group and he can't show up for a raid night when you planned on doing High King Mulgar? Would you like if your only warlock tank for whatever that guy's name is in SSC had his computer crash and he can't make it on until he gets a replacement part next week? This kind of design actually PROHIBITS things like pugging (face it, there are very few 25 man pugs and this would really hurt the few still around) and forces people to look for specific class comps to overcome certain mechanics. It's an outdated design philosophy that Blizzard would like to make work but realistically had to get rid of.

And instead of worrying if Raid Class A will be around for raid time or if Pug Class D will be able to actually perform the tasks they are given you can instead give the responsibility to someone else that knows how to do it but isn't the same class or give the responsibility to someone you know can handle the task as opposed to the guy you had to bring because he's the only one that arbitrarily has the ability.

Either you live in a weird world where you like to make things logistically harder for no reason (it's not a difficulty increase to require a specific class - it's poor design) or you're just trying to rip on 10 mans just to rip on them.
Edited by Dysheki on 1/30/2013 10:19 AM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
Also, again, how can a Wrath format or modified Wrath format possibly be "ruining game access" for 10s when we know that both formats thrived in that expansion? If anything, it's the current system that has ruined game access to 25s.


Just because that model was effective at the time, does not mean it would be effective again. For it to be effective again, leaders would need to step up and start running effective 25 man guilds again on a lot of servers. I for one, am not interested in doing that, and the other officers in my guild would rather quit than actually run a 25 man guild again. I'm not sure how much of the new, more casual player base, is both willing and interested in taking up that job now either.

If there was a real full tier gear incentive to do 25 man right now, I think more people would quit than pony up.
90 Troll Druid
14580
01/30/2013 10:19 AMPosted by Firestyle
Just because that model was effective at the time, does not mean it would be effective again.

The individual player might change, but everyone stays the same.

01/30/2013 10:19 AMPosted by Firestyle
If there was a real full tier gear incentive to do 25 man right now, I think more people would quit than pony up.

I think the people (10man) who could feel cheated will feel cheated and continue playing. Those who don't care, well...they won't care. It's not like the overwhelming majority of 25man guilds wanted to collapse into a 10man guild. It's not like the 10man guilds today necessarily want to raid 25man. Whether it's 25man or 10man, someone else (25man or 10man) getting better gear does not effect the way you play.

Whatever your reasons are for raiding, it's Blizzard's job to lay down the rules (25man offering better gear, for example). It's up to the players to choose what they want to do. In the competitive aspect: No one EVER compares 25man progression against 10man progression. There's no point. I've seen multiple 25man progression guilds go 10man just to kill Sha of Fear (Heroic), but I also see that a large portion of these kills are in a 25man setting. So, maybe it's harder in 25man, and easy in 10man? Deadweight? I don't know, neither do you. Raid because you want to raid. Play for the fun of it all. If you want to be in the "harder" setting, you raided 25man in WOTLK. The vast majority of 10man raiders will raid, guess what, 10man! The few 25mans remaining are dying for a reason. If Blizzard doesn't want that to happen, they will need to bring back, or add, something very, very important to players in favor of 25man raiding.
Edited by Cyous on 1/30/2013 10:48 AM PST
100 Human Warrior
8785
01/29/2013 09:26 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Forgive me for not really caring about your perception.


I forgive you because it's how I feel about the minority of 25m raiders who think their ego is justification for ruining game access for the other 350k of us that don't run 25m raids.


And yet you don't care how the changes need for your, as a raider, ego effects 8 Million + players when the raid community is in the 450-600 thousand or .45 or .6 Million range. Hmm looking at that the LFR crowd is where most of the development time should be spend when it comes to raiding as it has the most payoff per player.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
It doesn't change the fact that 10's limit the options available to those devs.

No, I disagree. I agree that 10s have created a need for homogenization, but not a need to lower raid complexity. Not one bit.

Don't you see that having some random Buff any class can get isn't the same as using a unique class skill in an encounter? That one not only allows for diverse class skills but integrates those skills into the encounter mechanics while the other winds up just being a button to press? This goes to the core of why the game isn't as good as it used to be. For all the improved models and greta artwork the game as a whole is not as engaging.

It's a button to press either way. I don't see how making it a specific class ability is any different besides adding a little flavor. Would you rather us go back to the Sunwell model where everyone is looking for a shaman so each group can have hero/bloodlust? Would you like if you only had one mage in your 25 man group and he can't show up for a raid night when you planned on doing High King Mulgar? Would you like if your only warlock tank for whatever that guy's name is in SSC had his computer crash and he can't make it on until he gets a replacement part next week? This kind of design actually PROHIBITS things like pugging (face it, there are very few 25 man pugs and this would really hurt the few still around) and forces people to look for specific class comps to overcome certain mechanics. It's an outdated design philosophy that Blizzard would like to make work but realistically had to get rid of.

And instead of worrying if Raid Class A will be around for raid time or if Pug Class D will be able to actually perform the tasks they are given you can instead give the responsibility to someone else that knows how to do it but isn't the same class or give the responsibility to someone you know can handle the task as opposed to the guy you had to bring because he's the only one that arbitrarily has the ability.

Either you live in a weird world where you like to make things logistically harder for no reason (it's not a difficulty increase to require a specific class - it's poor design) or you're just trying to rip on 10 mans just to rip on them.


There's a huge difference since it's not just a button press. If you don't see that then I'm sorry. Distinct class abilities that are integrated into encounter design are one of the things that makes RPG games what they are. Making generic encounters where abilities needed to beat said encounter are nothing more than Buffs or new buttons to press regardless of class is the game equivalent of Deus Ex Machina. That's bad.

No one is talking about Sunwell and no one is talking Class stacking. GC has even tweeted how difficult it is to keep classes feeling distinct in a 10 man Raid environment. I'm not ripping on 10's to rip on them I'm ripping on them now that the game needs to be balanced around that Raid size. That change has brought nothing to the game. WOW is worse off for the change.
Edited by Indyana on 1/30/2013 10:44 AM PST
100 Human Warrior
8785

But again, they are not limiting complexity one bit. IMO fights in general are more complex than they used to be.

You could say class homogenization is at an all time high, and I wouldn't necesarily disagree with you. But the mass recruitment for shamans to clear Sunwell wasn't good design. They're trying to find a balance. So instead of having a mage tank based on spellsteal, they would instead now design an encounter to give one person the debuff based on something they did rather than a class ability. It changes absolutely nothing. What is the difference if you have a mage that can spellsteal or have someone that can macro their ExtraActionButton1 to a keybind? It allows for flexibility and does not change the complexity one bit.


You're confusing the natural evolution of encounter complexity with how 10's limit design choice just like Bombadil. The devs have been able to make encounters more complex because the game keeps advancing. It doesn't change the fact that 10's limit the options available to those devs.

Don't you see that having some random Buff any class can get isn't the same as using a unique class skill in an encounter? That one not only allows for diverse class skills but integrates those skills into the encounter mechanics while the other winds up just being a button to press? This goes to the core of why the game isn't as good as it used to be. For all the improved models and great artwork the game as a whole is not as engaging.


The fights can continue to become more complex because Blizzard is willing to marginalize more and more of the player base on the alter of competitive raiding and supporting multiple raid sizes.

If there was only 1 raid size large enough to support a good amount of class diversity, X >= Ceiling5(# of classes), so 15 at least if only go by classes.

Each tier and expansion Blizzard makes the fights more complex on average, and leave more of the player base to only have the option of LFR because there are no other options with the current raid design.

I am working on making a chart of basic complexity of all raid encounters at some point, just working on how to quantify some of the more abstract issues.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
01/30/2013 10:19 AMPosted by Firestyle
Also, again, how can a Wrath format or modified Wrath format possibly be "ruining game access" for 10s when we know that both formats thrived in that expansion? If anything, it's the current system that has ruined game access to 25s.


Just because that model was effective at the time, does not mean it would be effective again. For it to be effective again, leaders would need to step up and start running effective 25 man guilds again on a lot of servers. I for one, am not interested in doing that, and the other officers in my guild would rather quit than actually run a 25 man guild again. I'm not sure how much of the new, more casual player base, is both willing and interested in taking up that job now either.

If there was a real full tier gear incentive to do 25 man right now, I think more people would quit than pony up.


When the threats to quit pop up then the conversation ends because we all know it's hollow.

It doesn't matter whether you're interested in the 25 man format anymore because someone on your server will start up a successful 25 man Guild to chase the iLevel dream. Some of those Officers who you cite will wind up jumping ship once they see success.

To help the new, casual player in LFR Blizzard just needs to lower the skill cap on 10 Normals to create a bridge to organized raiding. The model of Noob>Dungeon Runner>Casual Raider>Leet Raider was working fine until Cata.
90 Undead Priest
14805
01/30/2013 06:17 AMPosted by Dysheki
He said encounters were less complex than they could have been. That is not the same as less complex as TBC/Wrath. I don't think anyone would argue that encounters then were more complex. Parts of them were but not overall. Nowadays, they have learned more and could make much more complex encounters if they were allowed to make class specific parts of each encounter.

I'm gonna disagree requiring a lock/mage tank makes anything more complex. It makes it more annoying to make sure you have a specific class to complete an encounter, not more complex. Not to say BC bosses weren't complex at all (end-raid bosses in TK/SSC were), but for the most part they weren't.

Requiring 5 shamans in a raid for heroism to beat the dps check isn't difficult content: it's silly content.

No one is asking for 10s to be limited from current content. They are asking for 10s current content to be different from 25s current content.

I don't see why they need to be different. At all.


Class stacking is different from what we were talking about. Requiring a ton of shaman is dumb for lust back in TBC days. Just imagine if on say Will, one of the bosses took on Twin emps idea of only be caster damage and only allowed casters to "dance" on said add. They could have tossed something in forcing 2-3 casters to dance per phase or cause a wipe. It could have allowed for more complexity in the adds that came down cause you'd have an extra "normal" tank to pick at. They could do all kinds of things with a fight like that.

LeiShi could have been changed a ton to allow for caster tanks since its all spell damage. Maybe then the add phases could be something seriously unique and different each time or maybe it would allow for more than 3 mechanics.

Maybe Blizzard would have made them the same even with balancing for 25s first, who knows, but the fact that I can on the fly come up with some ways to make a couple current encounters more difficult/complex by adding in a caster tank or two, makes me think that with months Blizzard could have done a lot more.

And as touched, encounters are more complex now because of game advancements and learning over time, not because 10s makes it better for complexity.

And to touch on the last part, when the "same" isn't working well, the only other option is to try something different.
90 Undead Priest
14805
01/30/2013 06:47 AMPosted by Dysheki
So instead of having a mage tank based on spellsteal, they would instead now design an encounter to give one person the debuff based on something they did rather than a class ability. It changes absolutely nothing. What is the difference if you have a mage that can spellsteal or have someone that can macro their ExtraActionButton1 to a keybind? It allows for flexibility and does not change the complexity one bit.


The difference is that if they have to extraactionbutton an ability, they can't do it with something else. Take Feng for example; lets say that Dark Sim worked on his stun for fist phase. That would eliminate the need for that tank buff as it seems that the only one that really "matters" for most strats I see. Or if they expected a cd for each boss AE phase rather than a random shield, it would eliminate the need for that buff as well. Completely clearing up the extraactionbutton option for the encounter. They could have added a shadow phase on that fight with the button or some big damage you had to deal take care of with said button or any number of things could have been done in its place.

While the addition of extra action button is sweet, it shouldn't be used to cover a lack of classes. It should be used to allow for much more unique and unusual aspects to a fight.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
01/30/2013 11:11 AMPosted by Telepathy
So instead of having a mage tank based on spellsteal, they would instead now design an encounter to give one person the debuff based on something they did rather than a class ability. It changes absolutely nothing. What is the difference if you have a mage that can spellsteal or have someone that can macro their ExtraActionButton1 to a keybind? It allows for flexibility and does not change the complexity one bit.


The difference is that if they have to extraactionbutton an ability, they can't do it with something else. Take Feng for example; lets say that Dark Sim worked on his stun for fist phase. That would eliminate the need for that tank buff as it seems that the only one that really "matters" for most strats I see. Or if they expected a cd for each boss AE phase rather than a random shield, it would eliminate the need for that buff as well. Completely clearing up the extraactionbutton option for the encounter. They could have added a shadow phase on that fight with the button or some big damage you had to deal take care of with said button or any number of things could have been done in its place.

While the addition of extra action button is sweet, it shouldn't be used to cover a lack of classes. It should be used to allow for much more unique and unusual aspects to a fight.


I have to add that the old model also allowed for unique class skills. Shaman and the old WF totem as an example. Once the class stacking mechanic was fixed it was a unique and interesting Buff for melee classes that was much more interesting than the tired old Melee haste Buff we have now.
90 Worgen Druid
17805
There's a huge difference since it's not just a button press. If you don't see that then I'm sorry. Distinct class abilities that are integrated into encounter design are one of the things that makes RPG games what they are. Making generic encounters where abilities needed to beat said encounter are nothing more than Buffs or new buttons to press regardless of class is the game equivalent of Deus Ex Machina. That's bad.

No one is talking about Sunwell and no one is talking Class stacking. GC has even tweeted how difficult it is to keep classes feeling distinct in a 10 man Raid environment. I'm not ripping on 10's to rip on them I'm ripping on them now that the game needs to be balanced around that Raid size. That change has brought nothing to the game. WOW is worse off for the change.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I would much rather have to worry about learning a mechanic than worrying about whether or not our only Class X raider will show up. I personally don't find a difference either way because you're still doing the same exact thing regardless - but you're arbitrarily giving the job to one person and only one person. I just don't understand why you would want this when you're trying to make it easier for 25s to run a raid when these types of mechanics could possibly be a logistical nightmare for a raid leader.

01/30/2013 10:57 AMPosted by Telepathy
And as touched, encounters are more complex now because of game advancements and learning over time, not because 10s makes it better for complexity.

I never said encounters are more complex because of 10s. I've said that regardless of the insertion of 10s into heroic raiding they have still found ways to make things more complex (which has admittedly brought on things like homogenization to allow difficulty to increase without needing specific classes to do things).
Edited by Dysheki on 1/30/2013 11:27 AM PST
90 Undead Priest
14805
01/30/2013 11:26 AMPosted by Dysheki
I never said encounters are more complex because of 10s. I've said that regardless of the insertion of 10s into heroic raiding they have still found ways to make things more complex (which has admittedly brought on things like homogenization to allow difficulty to increase without needing specific classes to do things).


By saying that, you then agree that without the added homogenization it would allow more complexity? Yes they've found ways to do it, but there is a cap on it. It can only be so complex before it becomes and issue.

As far as missing out on a specific person cause a raid to not go, how is that different now? If a 25man only has 1 lock or 1 mage or 1 whatever, and they are gone, they don't have much chance on something, but the same can be said for tanks or healers.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
There's a huge difference since it's not just a button press. If you don't see that then I'm sorry. Distinct class abilities that are integrated into encounter design are one of the things that makes RPG games what they are. Making generic encounters where abilities needed to beat said encounter are nothing more than Buffs or new buttons to press regardless of class is the game equivalent of Deus Ex Machina. That's bad.

No one is talking about Sunwell and no one is talking Class stacking. GC has even tweeted how difficult it is to keep classes feeling distinct in a 10 man Raid environment. I'm not ripping on 10's to rip on them I'm ripping on them now that the game needs to be balanced around that Raid size. That change has brought nothing to the game. WOW is worse off for the change.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I would much rather have to worry about learning a mechanic than worrying about whether or not our only Class X raider will show up. I personally don't find a difference either way because you're still doing the same exact thing regardless - but you're arbitrarily giving the job to one person and only one person.


When the devs balanced around 25's it was expected that you had at least one of every class in one role or another. Of course as a 10 man player you don't want to be bogged down by class need. That's one of the points we're making. The devs had more flexibility when design revolved around 25's.

Part of the meta game of Raid leading was getting your team put together in the most synergistic way. The present model may be more forgiving but that just means it's more bland.

It's hard to argue with newer MMO players (and I'm not saying you fall into that camp) because they don't grasp why GC would say flying mounts make the game worse (as an example). They can't separate what makes a game better as opposed to things that make the game easier for the player.

It's more fun for many of us when a class skill like Priest MC is important to defeating an encounter (Razzuvious) as opposed to adding an encounter specific trick to give the ability to any old class. It's just more bland and as I said stinks of deus ex machina.
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