10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
I would do the idea suggested in 1478, without unnecessarily elevating 25H. 25N as the staple of the game for raiding could be a good thing.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
1785
01/31/2013 03:58 PMPosted by Hyjinx
The glaring problem with a system like that as a whole is that 25H becomes a brick wall because the leap from Normal to Heroic is too large. Casual guilds might form, but then due to the ease of 25N they would probably complete it but then have nowhere else to go.


Not completely sure about this. Currently only 27% of guilds have completed normal mode. The majority of guilds actually just do normal modes. Yes there would be a leap from 25 N normal to 25 man heroic, but most guilds that are used to doing heroic modes will be able to make the leap and most that are not will take some time to progress through normal modes.
90 Undead Priest
14805
01/31/2013 05:57 PMPosted by Numbasix
The glaring problem with a system like that as a whole is that 25H becomes a brick wall because the leap from Normal to Heroic is too large. Casual guilds might form, but then due to the ease of 25N they would probably complete it but then have nowhere else to go.


Not completely sure about this. Currently only 27% of guilds have completed normal mode. The majority of guilds actually just do normal modes. Yes there would be a leap from 25 N normal to 25 man heroic, but most guilds that are used to doing heroic modes will be able to make the leap and most that are not will take some time to progress through normal modes.


It will create a massive void of 25man guilds. Ones like mine won't exist. Guilds will either be casual only normal 25man or pure hardcore high end guilds. There won't really be a place for middle progression guilds as they would just go 10s still.

While its a step in the correct direction, it's still not saving the format. It's making it the extremes.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
You know what I don't get?

I don't get how Blizzard dropping 5.2 before a guild like mine has killed heroic Sha changes anything from Sunwell. I mean, I never saw sunwell before it was past it's prime, and I'm never going to see heroic sha.

Game has the same problems it had 5 years ago.
90 Undead Priest
14805
You know what I don't get?

I don't get how Blizzard dropping 5.2 before a guild like mine has killed heroic Sha changes anything from Sunwell. I mean, I never saw sunwell before it was past it's prime, and I'm never going to see heroic sha.

Game has the same problems it had 5 years ago.


Blizzard wants it to go back to that style though. They want people to still progress through the previous tiers while there are newer tiers out. The catch being is that since normal and heroic are the "same" content while being different, they don't feel bad if someone doesn't complete full heroic because its the same as normal. So the whole "only .5% saw sunwell/naxx" stuff doesn't hold water due to it being that way.

It's an interesting situation though. Blizzard always claims that normal and heroic are different content but in that same breath, they could say that everyone "saw content" if people mentioned only .xx% killed heroic sha. I find it funny how they built themselves a fail safe for both side.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
in that right, LFR is the same.
90 Undead Priest
14805
01/31/2013 06:59 PMPosted by Firestyle
in that right, LFR is the same.


It is, I just sort of forgot it when making my post.
90 Orc Shaman
13550
01/31/2013 05:57 PMPosted by Numbasix
The glaring problem with a system like that as a whole is that 25H becomes a brick wall because the leap from Normal to Heroic is too large. Casual guilds might form, but then due to the ease of 25N they would probably complete it but then have nowhere else to go.


Not completely sure about this. Currently only 27% of guilds have completed normal mode. The majority of guilds actually just do normal modes. Yes there would be a leap from 25 N normal to 25 man heroic, but most guilds that are used to doing heroic modes will be able to make the leap and most that are not will take some time to progress through normal modes.


Yes, but the proposition was to make Normal 25s significantly easier. If you do that, more complete it and then they're in limbo.

You know what I don't get?

I don't get how Blizzard dropping 5.2 before a guild like mine has killed heroic Sha changes anything from Sunwell. I mean, I never saw sunwell before it was past it's prime, and I'm never going to see heroic sha.

Game has the same problems it had 5 years ago.


Meh. I'd agree that this tier has a few more months in it than they're giving it, and the next tier probably will too. It's the short and/or heavily nerfed tiers that needed to go by more quickly (Firelands, DS).

However, Heroic modes were never meant to be completed by a significant portion of players. 5 years ago, nobody except the upper echelon saw Sunwell at all. Now you have both LFR and Normals for people to see the bosses. Only the upper echelon may see the hardest bosses on Heroic, but more than that are actually participating in the raids.
90 Worgen Mage
15160
However, Heroic modes were never meant to be completed by a significant portion of players. 5 years ago, nobody except the upper echelon saw Sunwell at all. Now you have both LFR and Normals for people to see the bosses. Only the upper echelon may see the hardest bosses on Heroic, but more than that are actually participating in the raids.


Just remember one thing when it comes to Sunwell. It is true that more people see the current tier of content because the design of end game raids changed drastically. From a developer standpoint I can understand the desire to have more people see content when it is "current" rather than when it has been obsoleted by a new expansion.

You have to remember however that the design back then was very different. The tiers were never designed to have everyone see the content. Sunwell may have only happened to have the "upper echelon" as you put it see the content, but it was designed exactly to be that way so i always find it curious when people use it as a complaint.

The other side of the coin is that the way content was designed back then was to give an almost endless amount of new content for the vast majority of players. This was it's advantage over the current model. Right now, so many players get pushed through the current content via LFR that it gets old significantly faster than it does now and to be honest I am not sure this system is better.

The thing is, "current" used to mean the entire expansion. Now "current" means only this patch. Cataclysm made all previous tiers obsolete each time a new raid patch came out. It is clear Blizzard wasn't happy with that because 5.2 has been designed so that in order to enter it you need to have gear from the previous raid instance - which is exactly how it worked in BC and I can understand why. This also relates to this comment:

I don't get how Blizzard dropping 5.2 before a guild like mine has killed heroic Sha changes anything from Sunwell. I mean, I never saw sunwell before it was past it's prime, and I'm never going to see heroic sha.


Blizzard appears to be, in a sense trying to reverse the idea that a new content patch obsoletes the last one. In fact GC also talked about this on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/288769344375246848

The idea is they are trying to move away from the new content making the old content obsolete so fast, so while the new patch might come out sooner than people have finished doing content, there is no need to jump straight into the new instance.

As for the heroics, while I hate to be blunt, and incidentally we are still killing heroic bosses as well and may not make all of them before the patch, they cannot balance the time release of their content over such a small group of people. If they left it till a large enough people had killed all the current content on Heroic we would be waiting a long time for new content.

Take for example, heroic Lich King. After 12 months of having that instance, 0.7% of 25 man guilds had killed heroic Lich King - in 12 months. Right now, just looking at 25 man again, 3.5% of guilds have killed Heroic Sha so proportionally, more base amount of the population has cleared the current heroic content in the last 3 months than ICC had in 12. When you add in the normal clears and LFR clears - LFR in particular - you just cannot have content dragging on that long.

Will I be happy we have a new tier before we clear the current one entirely ? No not really, but it makes sense.
100 Gnome Warlock
3515
01/31/2013 10:04 PMPosted by Virtutis
Blizzard appears to be, in a sense trying to reverse the idea that a new content patch obsoletes the last one.


Making T15 LFR equivalent to heroic T14 (at the very least it is equal to H. MSV) pretty much guarantees that T14 will never be run for more than vanity reasons like achievements or the off-chance mount off of Elegon for, and having normal T15 drop gear that's 20 ilvls above heroic gear will mean that shy of something like Shard of Woe happening again, no one will want to continue wasting raid nights on killing bosses that drop drastically inferior gear.

Even if people like you, Firestyle, or I would love to go back and finish up the tier just to say we did it before it became stupidly facerollable we still have to deal with trying to convince the other 9/24 people in our raid groups that it is worth the time investment to do it.
90 Tauren Warrior
9595
right now, just looking at 25 man again, 3.5% of guilds have killed Heroic Sha so proportionally


That percentage is mostly because there are so few 25 man guilds now compared to T10. You'd be better off looking at the actual number in this case rather than the percentage.
100 Tauren Druid
21875
02/01/2013 04:18 AMPosted by Judson
right now, just looking at 25 man again, 3.5% of guilds have killed Heroic Sha so proportionally


That percentage is mostly because there are so few 25 man guilds now compared to T10. You'd be better off looking at the actual number in this case rather than the percentage.


And to add to this, it's mostly the HC 25 man guilds left so that skews the numbers even further.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
You know what I don't get?

I don't get how Blizzard dropping 5.2 before a guild like mine has killed heroic Sha changes anything from Sunwell. I mean, I never saw sunwell before it was past it's prime, and I'm never going to see heroic sha.

Game has the same problems it had 5 years ago.


Nihilum killed KT in Tempest Keep for the World first kill 10 days AFTER Black Temple was released. FYI. We're talking world first kill....not when your average Guild beat the encounter. It wasn't a problem then and it isn't a problem now.

Past it's prime used to mean when the next x-pac come out.
100 Worgen Death Knight
17705
Take for example, heroic Lich King. After 12 months of having that instance, 0.7% of 25 man guilds had killed heroic Lich King - in 12 months. Right now, just looking at 25 man again, 3.5% of guilds have killed Heroic Sha so proportionally, more base amount of the population has cleared the current heroic content in the last 3 months than ICC had in 12. When you add in the normal clears and LFR clears - LFR in particular - you just cannot have content dragging on that long.


As many people have pointed out, the 25m guilds that aren't here are the ones at the bottom of the progression. The hardcore 25m guilds are still, largely, intact because the recruitment woes are striking from the bottom up. So you have a situation where a lot of guilds who never would have killed Heroic Sha 25 aren't included now.

There are currently 126 25m guilds who have cleared 16/16 heroic. There are currently 176 10m guilds who have cleared 16/16 heroic. Those are fairly close, in all honesty - proving that the upper echelon of 25m raiding is not what is suffering.

The difference comes in when you look at Stone Guard normal kills. 25m has 3,188. 10m has 37,422. There are over 10x more 10m kills of Stone Guard normal than 25m. That proves that the lower echelons are actually where 25m raiding has been impacted and it's slowly moving upwards.

Let's just add up all of the 10 and 25m 16/16 heroic guilds and divide them by all the 10 and 25m Stone Guard kills. That gives 302 / 40,610 = .74% of guilds who have killed Stone Guard normal have gone on to 16/16 heroic. If you just look at 10m, it's .47%.

What is ultimately concerning is that there are more than triple the 10m H Stone Guard kills (10,675) than 25m N Stone guard kills (3,188). This was a pattern that played out in both Dragon Soul (with Morchok) and Firelands (with Shannox) too.

25m guilds are far harder to start up because they require more time and effort to assemble 25 people, that much is obvious. Therefore the 25m scene quickly becomes top-heavy because there is no reason to form a new 25m guild when you can form a 10m guild and clearly have a higher chance of success.

It is statistically more likely that you form a 10m that can go 5/6 H MV than that you can form a 25m that can kill normal Stone Guard at the moment. That is a daunting number to overcome, and obviously a task that more and more people are shying away from, even though you have roughly the same chance of going 16/16 H in both formats.

It's all about the barriers to entry.
Edited by Bactide on 2/1/2013 7:08 AM PST
90 Worgen Mage
15160
02/01/2013 02:43 AMPosted by Bomdanil
Blizzard appears to be, in a sense trying to reverse the idea that a new content patch obsoletes the last one.


Making T15 LFR equivalent to heroic T14 (at the very least it is equal to H. MSV) pretty much guarantees that T14 will never be run for more than vanity reasons like achievements or the off-chance mount off of Elegon for, and having normal T15 drop gear that's 20 ilvls above heroic gear will mean that shy of something like Shard of Woe happening again, no one will want to continue wasting raid nights on killing bosses that drop drastically inferior gear.

Even if people like you, Firestyle, or I would love to go back and finish up the tier just to say we did it before it became stupidly facerollable we still have to deal with trying to convince the other 9/24 people in our raid groups that it is worth the time investment to do it.


Except you are never, ever going to get this situation - which I made clear in the post you partially quoted. While it may be desired for the smaller amount of the population to have cleared more bosses, history has shown us, and indeed I posted numbers, that if you are waiting for a magic number to clear that instance and that magic number is any higher than 5% then we will be here until the Warcraft movie comes out on this tier alone.

The only way you could possibly change that is by not making the 5.2 LFR item level reachable with the previous tier LFR, and that throws a whole different kind of spanner in the works which would not work with LFR.

The strange thing is, which seems to be completely forgotten here, is that every raid in even BC worked exactly the same way. Each higher level raids gear "invalidated" the previous tier - if you could get the gear. This is the difference. The item level is not the problem, it is the ease of access of LFR that causes this issue. If, for some weird reason the next tier did not launch with an LFR at all then it would most certainly not invalidate the previous tier gear and we would have a linear item level increase. Somehow I do not think that will happen though.

I suppose you could make LFR item levels a path entirely seperate from the the rest of the content. Instead of having them increase alongside the the rest of the raid tiers, they increase much more slowly. Say 476(current) > 489(5.2) > 502(5.4). Gearing is obviously not a huge hurdle of any kind for LFR and the content is designed to be clearable so people can just "See the content" so in reality this would have no detrimental effect to Normal and Heroic guilds except removing the LFR as a viable option for gearing each patch.

Blizzard may take issue with that point however. Personally I could care less about the LFR and prefer not to run it if at all possible. The problem however then goes into what item level do you make the next tier? If you tune the normal content to follow from the normal content previous then you naturally have this OP nature to your gear as you have heroic level gear. This will naturally make the normal modes easier than say those that just do normal. This is yet another complication of the multiple difficulty levels, first LFR now normal and heroic as well.

The thing is, at the end of the day I do not think it is possible to avoid making old content obsolete unless you make the item level increases so small that it wouldn't matter, in which case there are negatives to that as well - not to mention that ALSO has the effect of invalidating older content just in an entirely new way. Now instead of skipping the old content because there is an easy option higher level content (LFR) you instead have people skip that content because the item levels are so close it's pointless not to.

While Blizzard insists on having three difficulty levels of content that are not mutually exclusive, we will continue to have this problem until the game changes or we stop playing.

02/01/2013 04:18 AMPosted by Judson
That percentage is mostly because there are so few 25 man guilds now compared to T10. You'd be better off looking at the actual number in this case rather than the percentage.


No actually it isn't. Looking at just numbers skews the results for precisely the same reason you want me to use them for. Direct numbers comparison, when there are "so few guilds compared to T10" makes those numbers far, far worse. What matters is the % of players that are actually raiding that content getting clearance on that content, not the number of direct players. Also was there a point? This makes no difference with what I was saying anyway...

And to add to this, it's mostly the HC 25 man guilds left so that skews the numbers even further.


That may be but it has nothing at all to do with the point that I was making - except instead of waiting say 5 years for sufficient clearance rates, we only have to wait what... 3? Less bad, still terrible and a bad argument.

It's all about the barriers to entry.


I have no idea whatsoever what the point of that post was quoting me. That is a lot of comparison statistics for what exactly? I think you may have confused why I was saying what I said. I was clearing up a few misconceptions, most particularly about Sunwell in that post which gets used far too often and usually badly due to no experience at that point in the game.

As I said above that quote, adjusting the clearance rates for heroic 25 makes no difference to what I was saying because the clearance rates are ridiculously low no matter which numbers you pick. It is like saying "this object is 1 Billion Miles away, this other object is 1 Billion and 10 miles away" - the first object is so much closer! Yes sure, if you negated the billion in the middle there would be a significant difference, but it is a bit like arguing over the different positions of rocks on the opposite side of the grand canyon and then pretending the grand canyon wasn't there.
100 Worgen Death Knight
17705
As I said above that quote, adjusting the clearance rates for heroic 25 makes no difference to what I was saying because the clearance rates are ridiculously low no matter which numbers you pick. It is like saying "this object is 1 Billion Miles away, this other object is 1 Billion and 10 miles away" - the first object is so much closer! Yes sure, if you negated the billion in the middle there would be a significant difference, but it is a bit like arguing over the different positions of rocks on the opposite side of the grand canyon and then pretending the grand canyon wasn't there.


At first read through it sounds like you're saying "3.5% is so much more than .7% so everything is OK."

If that's not how you intended that, then I apologize for any miscommunication.
90 Troll Mage
12310
The top 3.5% of the guilds clearing heroic 25 is not the problem here. They will continue to sap in the cream of the crop and continue killing things till WoW dies altogether.

Problem 1: 25 man Entry level raiding
The problem is in entry level raiding. New people (yes, WoW still gets new players) do not like to dive into 25 man raiding because of its logistic challenges and the fact that they have to deal with a larger group of people. 25 man normal mode is not hard. It's just tougher to setup since So, they run 10 mans. It's way easier to find 10 people of similar personality with comparable availability for better scheduling.

Problem 2: lack of new 25 man leadership
Most of the 25 man guild leaders in this thread are veteran WoW players. For example, I have been playing WoW since Molten Core, leading a 25 man guild since Gruul's Lair. This is another problem. Current logistic challenges of managing 25 man raiding is driving off potential new guild leaders. If 25 mans cannot attract potential new guild leaders, raid leaders, new 25 man guilds will not rise and thrive.

This problem kinda percolates all way to the top guilds. Most of the top heroic 25 man guilds are all lead by veteran raid leaders, guild masters. Method, Blood Legion, Vodka etc -- all of them have been around for years. Some of the others which appear "new" are reformed from carcasses of established guilds. While 10M Heroic has a lot of guild which are relatively newborn.

So, to resurrect 25 man guilds-- Blizzard will have to encourage the birth of new leaders, new officers and guild master motivated enough to conquer the logistics of organizing 25 mans and running them as well-oiled machines.

The proposed 5.2 loot changes with the introduction of TF gear is not going to help in this regard. As a guild master, loot master of a 25 man guild, I dread these 5.2 loot changes. It adds another RNG element to loot distribution -- another potential for loot drama. Sometimes I wonder, if they are really looking to kill off 25 while pretending to help them.
90 Troll Mage
12310
You know what I don't get?

I don't get how Blizzard dropping 5.2 before a guild like mine has killed heroic Sha changes anything from Sunwell. I mean, I never saw sunwell before it was past it's prime, and I'm never going to see heroic sha.

Game has the same problems it had 5 years ago.


Nihilum killed KT in Tempest Keep for the World first kill 10 days AFTER Black Temple was released. FYI. We're talking world first kill....not when your average Guild beat the encounter. It wasn't a problem then and it isn't a problem now.

Past it's prime used to mean when the next x-pac come out.


Yes; but keep in mind that people continued to do TK:Eye even after BT released because of the stupid attunement. You had to kill KT and Rage Winterchill personally to get attuned to BT. Attunement sucks.

I really wonder how many guilds would have continued to run TK after BT release if there was no attunement for Mount Hyjal or Black Temple.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
Even if people like you, Firestyle, or I would love to go back and finish up the tier just to say we did it before it became stupidly facerollable we still have to deal with trying to convince the other 9/24 people in our raid groups that it is worth the time investment to do it.


And coming back to the 25 v. 10 debate, our guild will clear all raid bosses, at some point during this expansion. I cannot say that when our guild was a 25 man, that it would do the same. We STRUGGLED to get people to come work on Yogg 0 and H Anub 25, let alone H LK 25. Our 10 man never struggles on attendance to kill a new boss.

But, it's hard to gkick good players who are there when the gear is flowing. Especially when you're in a realm where you're options are so limited in terms of recruiting anyway.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840


Nihilum killed KT in Tempest Keep for the World first kill 10 days AFTER Black Temple was released. FYI. We're talking world first kill....not when your average Guild beat the encounter. It wasn't a problem then and it isn't a problem now.

Past it's prime used to mean when the next x-pac come out.


Yes; but keep in mind that people continued to do TK:Eye even after BT released because of the stupid attunement. You had to kill KT and Rage Winterchill personally to get attuned to BT. Attunement sucks.

I really wonder how many guilds would have continued to run TK after BT release if there was no attunement for Mount Hyjal or Black Temple.


Well, look at the item levels though. Kael dropped 141 loot, the same that you got in BT. That's on par with having Heroic Empress and Sha drop the same ilvl loot that comes out of the Thunderking normal raid.

Also, if you look at much of the t5 loot tables, you'll see 134 ilvl gear, up to 138/141 on end bosses, and then going into t6 you see 141 level loot. At that point, you're looking at 1/2 to 3/4 of a spread of what we have been normal and heroic loot now, and they are looking to go with 502 ilvl lfr gear. The gear inflation right now in MoP is astronomical, facilitating the deprecation of old content.
Edited by Firestyle on 2/1/2013 10:03 AM PST
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