10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Troll Mage
12310


Yes; but keep in mind that people continued to do TK:Eye even after BT released because of the stupid attunement. You had to kill KT and Rage Winterchill personally to get attuned to BT. Attunement sucks.

I really wonder how many guilds would have continued to run TK after BT release if there was no attunement for Mount Hyjal or Black Temple.


Well, look at the item levels though. Kael dropped 141 loot, the same that you got in BT. That's on par with having Heroic Empress and Sha drop the same ilvl loot that comes out of the Thunderking normal raid.

Also, if you look at much of the t5 loot tables, you'll see 134 ilvl gear, up to 138/141 on end bosses, and then going into t6 you see 141 level loot. At that point, you're looking at 1/2 to 3/4 of a spread of what we have been normal and heroic loot now, and they are looking to go with 502 ilvl lfr gear. The gear inflation right now in MoP is astronomical, facilitating the deprecation of old content.


Yes, but that had it's own problem. I.e. with new players and recruitment. For example in Vanilla WoW, to do well in AQ40, you needed to be geared in BWL/MC gear. So, if you rerolled a toon or a new level 60 in greens and blues, AQ40 was out of the question. Conversely, attrition, player burn outs happen. So guilds have to recruit continuously. A guild in AQ40 would find it impossible to recruit new 60s-- just didnt make sense to recruit someone in Dungeon gear when AQ40 expects you to be in MC/BWL gear. This sorta forced guilds working on AQ40 to clear MC/BWL every week with their new recruits -- thus adding to the burn out cycle.

In WoTLK and Cataclysm, they solved this problem by updating dungeon loot and new VP/JP gear so that new players/alts can come upto speed ASAP. We know that there are no new dungeons in 5.2. So, I assume that they expect us to run LFRs (5.1 ones) to gear alts and new players and get them ready for 5.2 raiding after 5.2 release.
100 Gnome Rogue
15590
It won't help the decline of 25man guilds.. hell they did this in firelands and I dont recall it doing anything

Was hopping for a tad more. their is 1 25man on are server I was hopping to see more but this wont do jack
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
16020


Well, look at the item levels though. Kael dropped 141 loot, the same that you got in BT. That's on par with having Heroic Empress and Sha drop the same ilvl loot that comes out of the Thunderking normal raid.

Also, if you look at much of the t5 loot tables, you'll see 134 ilvl gear, up to 138/141 on end bosses, and then going into t6 you see 141 level loot. At that point, you're looking at 1/2 to 3/4 of a spread of what we have been normal and heroic loot now, and they are looking to go with 502 ilvl lfr gear. The gear inflation right now in MoP is astronomical, facilitating the deprecation of old content.


Yes, but that had it's own problem. I.e. with new players and recruitment. For example in Vanilla WoW, to do well in AQ40, you needed to be geared in BWL/MC gear. So, if you rerolled a toon or a new level 60 in greens and blues, AQ40 was out of the question. Conversely, attrition, player burn outs happen. So guilds have to recruit continuously. A guild in AQ40 would find it impossible to recruit new 60s-- just didnt make sense to recruit someone in Dungeon gear when AQ40 expects you to be in MC/BWL gear. This sorta forced guilds working on AQ40 to clear MC/BWL every week with their new recruits -- thus adding to the burn out cycle.

In WoTLK and Cataclysm, they solved this problem by updating dungeon loot and new VP/JP gear so that new players/alts can come upto speed ASAP. We know that there are no new dungeons in 5.2. So, I assume that they expect us to run LFRs (5.1 ones) to gear alts and new players and get them ready for 5.2 raiding after 5.2 release.


If you rerolled a new toon then you should do MC and the other raids to learn how to play your new class. If the guild wanted you to reroll then they would help you run through the older content to gear up.

There was also no reason for a new level 60 to even think about going into AQ40 because he never experienced the other content being ZG-BWL.

Guilds recruitment went both ways. It was a way to put people of similiar skill level together. If you were better than MC skill and your guild couldnt clear MC then a BWL guild would recuit you, same goes for it you were not good enough for a BWL guild a MC guild would recruit you.

The new way helps with recruiting people but it doesnt help with getting good players. Its all a crap shoot in who you get. So yes you can recruit that mage you need and he can get into the raid you are doing but that doesnt help when he doesnt know how to play and you continue to wipe because of it. That just means your guild has to spend another week or so not killing a boss, which could actually cause burnout quicker than the old way.

To sum it up. The old way allowed guilds and players to find matches for their skill level easier and allowed everyone to have content that gave them a challenge.

The new way lets everyone into the top tier raid that you have no clue if people are skilled enough to do. It also makes it so players have less content for their skill level since they have to tune it for everyone.

Let them just go back to the gated way so everyone gets the chance to see all the content at a skill level designed for them. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to think they must see all the content once it first comes out, because those people dont care about the content but the gear. If they cared about the content then they would want to do it the way it was designed and not after its outdated and just burn though it ignoring the mechanics of the fight.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
Let them just go back to the gated way so everyone gets the chance to see all the content at a skill level designed for them. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to think they must see all the content once it first comes out, because those people dont care about the content but the gear. If they cared about the content then they would want to do it the way it was designed and not after its outdated and just burn though it ignoring the mechanics of the fight.


It's funny, I never saw sunwell, and I really didn't miss it at the time. t4 and 5 were good for me....
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
02/01/2013 01:45 PMPosted by Firestyle
Let them just go back to the gated way so everyone gets the chance to see all the content at a skill level designed for them. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to think they must see all the content once it first comes out, because those people dont care about the content but the gear. If they cared about the content then they would want to do it the way it was designed and not after its outdated and just burn though it ignoring the mechanics of the fight.


It's funny, I never saw sunwell, and I really didn't miss it at the time. t4 and 5 were good for me....


Yeah. Everyone I know was perfectly happy where they were Raiding in TBC. We never got past Hyjal in the Guild I was in at the time but we didn't mind. Friends who left us to get in a BT/SWP Guild would regularly come back to help us through tough patches.

I'll always believe that the "only 2% of the player base saw SWP and that's bad game design" meme really came from the Blizzard artists who wanted more people to see their stuff. Since no one (at least that I knew) was complaining that content was out of their reach .;-)
90 Orc Shaman
13550
I'll always believe that the "only 2% of the player base saw SWP and that's bad game design" meme really came from the Blizzard artists who wanted more people to see their stuff. Since no one (at least that I knew) was complaining that content was out of their reach .;-)


Heh, I don't think that.

If I worked for Blizz on any aspect of design that went into raids, I'd have been more pissed at Wrath and Cataclysm where everyone started getting herded into the newest tier of content at the expense of the other tiers. Instead of the first tiers of the expansion having lifespans of 12 or 18 months, everything was 6 months and done.

Karazhan lasted the entirety of BC. T11 lasted until Firelands came out, and Firelands was obsolete the day DS launched, excepting people running it for Dragonwrath.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455


Yes; but keep in mind that people continued to do TK:Eye even after BT released because of the stupid attunement. You had to kill KT and Rage Winterchill personally to get attuned to BT. Attunement sucks.



.....and this was bad again why? The entire Video Game concept is built around beating content to see new content. Mario, Ninja Gaiden, Donkey Kong, etc, etc. Why should anyone be able to bypass content until well into the life of a game or in WoW's case...an x-pac? How is WOW the special snowflake?

TBC was good progression. Ulduar to ToC was bad progression. Why? Guilds who weren't good enough to beat the Keepers in Ulduar jumped into ToC and facerolled it for better gear and never looked back. In TBC no one in the world could even get into BT when it was released because no one had beaten Kael. How awesome is that? How amazing and mysterious did that make BT feel?

The argument about what to do about players coming into an x-pac late was solved by removing attunements in the latter part of TBC.
Edited by Indyana on 2/1/2013 4:29 PM PST
90 Troll Mage
12310


Yes; but keep in mind that people continued to do TK:Eye even after BT released because of the stupid attunement. You had to kill KT and Rage Winterchill personally to get attuned to BT. Attunement sucks.



.....and this was bad again why? The entire Video Game concept is built around beating content to see new content. Mario, Ninja Gaiden, Donkey Kong, etc, etc. Why should anyone be able to bypass content until well into the life of a game or in WoW's case...an x-pac? How is WOW the special snowflake?

TBC was good progression. Ulduar to ToC was bad progression. Why? Guilds who weren't good enough to beat the Keepers in Ulduar jumped into ToC and facerolled it for better gear and never looked back. In TBC no one in the world could even get into BT when it was released because no one had beaten Kael. How awesome is that? How amazing and mysterious did that make BT feel?

The argument about what to do about players coming into an x-pac late was solved by removing attunements in the latter part of TBC.


Yes, WoW is THE special snowflake. People who raided or ran 25 mans in TBC will understand why attunement was bad.

Suppose you are deep in BT raiding and your guild rarely runs TK since everyone in the guild pretty much has what they need. So, you focus your progression on say Illidan. Now say you lose 3-4 people due to attrition, burn out etc. Now you are back to recruiting to fill those numbers.

But you've already shot yourself in the foot by further reducing your recruitment pool by excluding everyone that's not attuned to BT. So, either you wait to recruit only people attuned to BT (good luck with that on a server with med-low pop). Or you recruit and attune the new guy thereby wasting raid time. How many times will you attune new guys in this way?

25 man raid setup is like an intersection of multiple sets-- intersection of set of raiders of the same faction who have similar schedule and have similar skill level and personality. Now you are adding another set to it. You now need all those + people who are attuned.

Recruiting for 25 man is already a nightmare. Attunements make em a bigger nightmare.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455


Yes, WoW is THE special snowflake. People who raided or ran 25 mans in TBC will understand why attunement was bad.

Suppose you are deep in BT raiding and your guild rarely runs TK since everyone in the guild pretty much has what they need. So, you focus your progression on say Illidan. Now say you lose 3-4 people due to attrition, burn out etc. Now you are back to recruiting to fill those numbers.

But you've already shot yourself in the foot by further reducing your recruitment pool by excluding everyone that's not attuned to BT. So, either you wait to recruit only people attuned to BT (good luck with that on a server with med-low pop). Or you recruit and attune the new guy thereby wasting raid time. How many times will you attune new guys in this way?

25 man raid setup is like an intersection of multiple sets-- intersection of set of raiders of the same faction who have similar schedule and have similar skill level and personality. Now you are adding another set to it. You now need all those + people who are attuned.

Recruiting for 25 man is already a nightmare. Attunements make em a bigger nightmare.


Perspective. Some Guilds liked running together especially when it wasn't stressful progression nights. In your example it meant taking some new recruits though TK/SSC on an off night. Not only wasn't that a big deal it was fun for a lot of us.

There's always some drop that alluded us from old content which meant people were more than willing to have a chill night in post farm content. Some players brought Alts others tried out off specs for the night. It was fun and the new recruits got washed in gear and became very loyal.

I agree that it can't last forever and that's why attunements got phased out over time but for current content it really wasn't the big deal so many posters make it out to be.
Edited by Indyana on 2/1/2013 8:32 PM PST
90 Undead Priest
14805
Even if they had attunements still today, with the guild achievement system, they could easily just make it a guild achievement to get in the zone if you aren't personally keyed or something. The 2nd to 4th bosses could drop 1 key a week to allow for "back flagging" people.
10 Tauren Paladin
17785
I'd have been all for this back before my 25 man guild collapsed in Firelands due to raiders bailing for small 10 man intimate raids where they didn't have to rotate on a stand-by list or deal with a loot system. Too little too late for my experience and my guild, and frankly, it pisses me off.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
I was reminiscing with other officers last night about how less involved raids used to be. That you could really do 25 man raiding with assigning personal responsibility and raid mechanics to a handful of players, whereas in today's raids every player has a number of personal responsibilities.

That sort of model, in a 25 man setting, allows you to bring a couple players and assign them simple jobs of "dps the healer, and don't pull aggro", while assigning one player - say your mage, to spellsteal and magetank another. In today's model, new players are a liability - and will massively set your group back, as they have to learn to play their class, process information from Blizzards terrible raiding UI, and

I'll say it again, hardmode raiding kill 25 man guilds amongst the better part of the community. This came along with the design change of greater personal responsibility for all, making 25 man raiding functionally impossible to recruit for, because you didn't need interested players who you could teach a basic level of skill to, you needed experienced players capable of research, survivability, and comprehending all aspects of an encounter, while doing great numbers.
90 Orc Shaman
13550
I was reminiscing with other officers last night about how less involved raids used to be. That you could really do 25 man raiding with assigning personal responsibility and raid mechanics to a handful of players, whereas in today's raids every player has a number of personal responsibilities.

That sort of model, in a 25 man setting, allows you to bring a couple players and assign them simple jobs of "dps the healer, and don't pull aggro", while assigning one player - say your mage, to spellsteal and magetank another. In today's model, new players are a liability - and will massively set your group back, as they have to learn to play their class, process information from Blizzards terrible raiding UI, and

I'll say it again, hardmode raiding kill 25 man guilds amongst the better part of the community. This came along with the design change of greater personal responsibility for all, making 25 man raiding functionally impossible to recruit for, because you didn't need interested players who you could teach a basic level of skill to, you needed experienced players capable of research, survivability, and comprehending all aspects of an encounter, while doing great numbers.


Well, you're describing Heroic raids. Normal raids aren't that intensive.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
I was reminiscing with other officers last night about how less involved raids used to be. That you could really do 25 man raiding with assigning personal responsibility and raid mechanics to a handful of players, whereas in today's raids every player has a number of personal responsibilities.

That sort of model, in a 25 man setting, allows you to bring a couple players and assign them simple jobs of "dps the healer, and don't pull aggro", while assigning one player - say your mage, to spellsteal and magetank another. In today's model, new players are a liability - and will massively set your group back, as they have to learn to play their class, process information from Blizzards terrible raiding UI, and

I'll say it again, hardmode raiding kill 25 man guilds amongst the better part of the community. This came along with the design change of greater personal responsibility for all, making 25 man raiding functionally impossible to recruit for, because you didn't need interested players who you could teach a basic level of skill to, you needed experienced players capable of research, survivability, and comprehending all aspects of an encounter, while doing great numbers.


While I disagree about your hardmode assessment since hardmode is just another word for regular raiding prior to ToC I totally agree with the rest of your post.

My friend and I were talking about the same thing last week. He was an amazing Raid Leader and he said most of the responsibility for the success of a run fell on him and he was more than fine with that because that's what he loved doing.

If you had a great RL and strong leads for Tanks and Healers you were pretty much set. The new "personal responsibility" paradigm has moved the pressure onto each player and I don't know whether that's a good or bad thing for the game.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
02/02/2013 11:54 AMPosted by Nazzgul
still think you should make 10's and 25's have diff lockouts them sharing lockouts is just outdated and stupid.


it wouldn't turn out like you'd expect. In wotlk players mostly did 25 man raiding and PUG'd 10s and 10H. This time around, it would be pugging 25s on most realms, and I don't know too many folks chomping at the bit to start a 25 man PUG. Heck, I don't even see a lot of 10 man PUGs get off the ground, let alone past elegon here.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
I was reminiscing with other officers last night about how less involved raids used to be. That you could really do 25 man raiding with assigning personal responsibility and raid mechanics to a handful of players, whereas in today's raids every player has a number of personal responsibilities.

That sort of model, in a 25 man setting, allows you to bring a couple players and assign them simple jobs of "dps the healer, and don't pull aggro", while assigning one player - say your mage, to spellsteal and magetank another. In today's model, new players are a liability - and will massively set your group back, as they have to learn to play their class, process information from Blizzards terrible raiding UI, and

I'll say it again, hardmode raiding kill 25 man guilds amongst the better part of the community. This came along with the design change of greater personal responsibility for all, making 25 man raiding functionally impossible to recruit for, because you didn't need interested players who you could teach a basic level of skill to, you needed experienced players capable of research, survivability, and comprehending all aspects of an encounter, while doing great numbers.


While I disagree about your hardmode assessment since hardmode is just another word for regular raiding prior to ToC I totally agree with the rest of your post.

My friend and I were talking about the same thing last week. He was an amazing Raid Leader and he said most of the responsibility for the success of a run fell on him and he was more than fine with that because that's what he loved doing.

If you had a great RL and strong leads for Tanks and Healers you were pretty much set. The new "personal responsibility" paradigm has moved the pressure onto each player and I don't know whether that's a good or bad thing for the game.


I don't think there is a direct comparison for hardmode raiding and normal raiding pre-ToC. I think you're giving raiding before ToC too much credit. I know players who cleared BT, but there's no way they could have cleared 6/7H Firelands before nerfs. What does that say about BT then?
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455


I don't think there is a direct comparison for hardmode raiding and normal raiding pre-ToC. I think you're giving raiding before ToC too much credit. I know players who cleared BT, but there's no way they could have cleared 6/7H Firelands before nerfs. What does that say about BT then?


That's silly. The same top Guilds were around in TBC for the most part as were around in Cata or at least the players. Those same players took weeks to beat Kael and Vash'j yet were dropping the Hard Mode end Bosses by the first week they were running stuff. It's on par to Nihilum beating Illidan in week 2.

40/25 man Raiding from Ulduar and earlier was Hard Mode raiding.
Edited by Indyana on 2/2/2013 2:11 PM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840


I don't think there is a direct comparison for hardmode raiding and normal raiding pre-ToC. I think you're giving raiding before ToC too much credit. I know players who cleared BT, but there's no way they could have cleared 6/7H Firelands before nerfs. What does that say about BT then?


That's silly. The same top Guilds were around in TBC for the most part as were around in Cata or at least the players. Those same players took weeks to beat Kael and Vash'j yet were dropping the Hard Mode end Bosses by the first week they were running stuff. It's on par to Nihilum beating Illidan in week 2.

40/25 man Raiding from Ulduar and earlier was Hard Mode raiding.


Lol, no. Ulduar 25 man raiding was not harder than hardmodes. Although, it had some pretty solid hardmodes itself.
100 Human Warrior
18035
02/02/2013 02:10 PMPosted by Indyana
40/25 man Raiding from Ulduar and earlier was Hard Mode raiding.

ROFL
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