10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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90 Pandaren Monk
9915
Maybe drop 25 mans to 20 mans instead?

I know of quite a few guilds which run multiple 10 man raids. Never understood why a 25 man raid was needed when its literally 2 and a half raid teams.

10m Normal/Heroic , 20m Normal/Heroic and 25m LFR seems to work for me.

A "chance" at slightly better loot is not going to fix it when the chance is going to be there for 10 man AND 25 man. If it wasnt available in 10man and a chance in 25man then maybe.
90 Pandaren Warrior
16560
Maybe drop 25 mans to 20 mans instead?

I know of quite a few guilds which run multiple 10 man raids. Never understood why a 25 man raid was needed when its literally 2 and a half raid teams.


You're not going to get a straight logical answer, we've been asking that one since the start of BC when... magically, we were supposed to make a KZ geared 25 man group for Gruul and that awful fight Mags. Got latency, too bad you missed your cube click, raid wipe.
90 Undead Warrior
4180
Like the idea of better loot for 25 man. But the reason people are doing 10's at least y I wan to anyway. It give more hope for gear knowing that 2 peices will drop in 10 man for someone maybe not me, hoping me lol. I wan to be a good 10's and 25's raider but gear is hard enough to get in LFR, same item, no item, already go rep gear because it took to long to get LFR gear. So I am doing 10's because I know someone will get something from each boss instead of going months with nothing in LFR.
100 Tauren Druid
20410
02/05/2013 07:36 PMPosted by Sushinori
Maybe drop 25 mans to 20 mans instead?


25 mans have a raid team and bench of anywhere between 30 and 35 players. Having to drop an extra 5 people onto the bench every week won't help long term raiding and again the problem persists with 34 specs in 11 classes. Going to a smaller raid size will see more classes and viable specs marginalised because they are lower down meters by design or have game quirks which mean they're not as desired in a raid setting.

Lowing the amount of people in a raid also leads to more homogenisation between classes too to cater to situations that may arise in raiding progression.

Still the thunderforged rubbish won't help 25s, not the way they're implementing it anyway. It'll lead to loot drama, reluctance to be benched, wasted loot and all that jazz. It should not go in the way it is proposed right now... if it was a token that upgraded any item to thunderforged then it would possibly be alright, but even so it won't really help 25s in any way.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
Still the thunderforged rubbish won't help 25s, not the way they're implementing it anyway. It'll lead to loot drama, reluctance to be benched, wasted loot and all that jazz. It should not go in the way it is proposed right now... if it was a token that upgraded any item to thunderforged then it would possibly be alright, but even so it won't really help 25s in any way.


Oddly, it seems the thunderforged loot will increase the organization burden on 25 mans as their bench rotation becomes more complex in light of a "chance" at slightly better gear. I wonder if it will have an overall negative , net zero, or positive effect the design is going for.
90 Orc Shaman
13750
02/06/2013 11:17 AMPosted by Firestyle
Still the thunderforged rubbish won't help 25s, not the way they're implementing it anyway. It'll lead to loot drama, reluctance to be benched, wasted loot and all that jazz. It should not go in the way it is proposed right now... if it was a token that upgraded any item to thunderforged then it would possibly be alright, but even so it won't really help 25s in any way.


Oddly, it seems the thunderforged loot will increase the organization burden on 25 mans as their bench rotation becomes more complex in light of a "chance" at slightly better gear. I wonder if it will have an overall negative , net zero, or positive effect the design is going for.


Net zero at best, negative at worst.

I'll give you a personal "for instance": At this point, I'm pretty well geared from the bosses we've been killing. Thus I try and sit for non-progression bosses I need nothing from in order to give others playing time and chances at drops. However, because the next patch has Thunderforged gear, I'll be less willing to sit out. Now, I probably won't care too much about, say, Thunderforged boots or bracers or a neck or maybe even rings. But my offpiece? Weapons? Trinkets? Fug it, I'm going to be wanting in for those bosses every single time to try and get Thunderforged.

People will be more reluctant to take the "normal" versions of items because smart loot distribution dictates that you try to gear everyone at more or less the same pace. This means if you get the Normal version of a piece of gear, you're probably not going to get a Normal Thunderforged piece. Likewise, if you get a Normal Thunderforged piece, you're probably last for Heroic and etc for Heroic Thunderforged. Loot headaches like these are the type of things Blizzard should be trying to lessen for 25 man guilds, not exacerbate.

By the way, that's why I support the coin system. It lessens gearing headaches because if someone wins items via coins, the guild gears faster and doesn't need as many coveted dropped items. Thunderforged is going to give back the gearing headaches with interest.
100 Worgen Rogue
16185
02/05/2013 07:36 PMPosted by Sushinori
Never understood why a 25 man raid was needed when its literally 2 and a half raid teams.


Never understood why a 10-man raid was needed when it's literally less than half a raid team.
90 Undead Warlock
8000
IMO either make tier items automatically 6 ilvls higher or apply the thunderforged thing to them. If you have gear that is beating out tier for BIS that pretty much eliminates tier gear as being the prime pieces of gear that people want so it kills the concept of tier gear altogether really.
90 Gnome Warlock
1785
Never understood why a 25 man raid was needed when its literally 2 and a half raid teams.


Never understood why a 10-man raid was needed when it's literally less than half a raid team.


10 20 25 40.

Which one of these looks like the outlier?

Tip to the ones who will fall into the trap: 10m raids existed before 25m raids did.
Edited by Bomdanil on 2/7/2013 1:50 PM PST
90 Orc Shaman
13750


Never understood why a 10-man raid was needed when it's literally less than half a raid team.


10 20 25 40.

Which one of these looks like the outlier?

Tip to the ones who will fall into the trap: 10m raids existed before 25m raids did.


Far as I know, 10m and 25m debuted at the same time with the release of BC. And 20m beat them both with the original Zul'Gurub and AQ20.

If you're trying to go for the old classic dungeons, I'd discount those because they weren't really "raids" and they originally had a higher cap than 10 people.

Anyway, order of existence doesn't have any bearing on the question you were asking.

Also really seems like you're out to get 25m raiding now. True colors, huh?

In the format you gave, 25 is the outlier because it should be 30. Which also would have made the transition easier, and when they opted for a smaller format they could have gone with 15. That would have made more sense.
Edited by Hyjinx on 2/7/2013 3:01 PM PST
90 Gnome Warlock
1785
Also really seems like you're out to get 25m raiding now. True colors, huh?


Hardly. I just didn't understand the hostility in his response when the point of the one he was speaking to was that the 25m model sticks out a little bit. My post was an attempt to show him why the odd man out feels like the odd man out when taken in light of the other sizes of note in WoW's history.

It actually does call into question something that I hadn't really thought of too much before this thread, but why didn't they move to a 10/20 format after the 20/40 format in Classic? Like you pointed out yourself, it would have made transitioning from Kara into Gruul's and Mags a lot less burdensome than having to gear two groups plus an extra 5.
Edited by Bomdanil on 2/7/2013 3:21 PM PST
100 Dwarf Warrior
17085
02/07/2013 01:50 PMPosted by Bomdanil


Never understood why a 10-man raid was needed when it's literally less than half a raid team.


10 20 25 40.

Which one of these looks like the outlier?

The one with fewer spots than there are classes in the game. How do you reasonably tune a "super serious" progression path around that without all sorts of constraints (best example being homogenization?).

Bet they wish they could have that one back.
90 Undead Priest
18470
I'm just going to drop this here as an officer of 25-man guild. I've been in a leadership role in one a 25-man guild or another since BC.

While we certainly appreciate the Thunderforged items, it is by no means a particularly great solution to the 25-man vs. 10-man raid issue. Attendance is the #1 killer of 25-man guilds and it's a pain to recruit when people could raid arguably easier (and by this I mean better balanced) encounters on 10-man. Sure, every 25-man guild (at least if their smart) aims to run a bench larger than the number of available raid slots to accommodate people not showing up for whatever reason or for less than acceptable play, but eventually, that forethought goes out the window. If there's one thing I've learned about 25-man guilds (and raiding in general) is that people are flakes.

It is easier to deal with flakes when you have less people to manage. Converting back to the 20-man raid format, as opposed to 25, would be fantastic. Not only would it make recruiting a bit easier (and I recall Blizzard stating that they wanted to make things easier on the administration of 25-man guilds... cough), but it would also make balancing between the 10 and 25-man modes easier from a mathematical standpoint.

On that note, and this is just a personal complaint, I hate the way the current raid lockout system works. I severely dislike working on a progression boss on 25-man and then having X amount of people not show up on a given day, and then, because we can't go from 25-man heroic to 10, we have to instead clear that boss on normal. I just hate not being able to work on a heroic boss in the other available format because of the asinine lock out system.

/end rant
90 Gnome Warlock
1785
02/07/2013 04:04 PMPosted by Vulgrym
The one with fewer spots than there are classes in the game.


Incorrect for the reasons listed before you ever posted.

02/07/2013 04:04 PMPosted by Vulgrym
Bet they wish they could have that one back.


They also wish they could take back in-game flight, increased storage space, transmogrification, and a host of other things that the player base prefers to how things were before their introduction.

Luckily they know that undoing those things would be the deathknell for WoW, and removing content from 80% of the raiding population more than likely wouldn't do much beyond further agitating the bean counters that so much is spent to produce content for the 80,000 25m raiders that exist world wide.
90 Orc Shaman
13750
Meh. They removed content from 100% of the raiding population going into BC.

Anyway, the goal isn't to remove 10m raiding. The only way a format is getting removed at this point is if they consolidate to 1 format.

I don't see why they would want to backtrack transmog. Makes their artwork last longer and revives the old stuff. As for storage space.. well, that pretty much has to increase over time. As the game expands more items are available, even just the novelty items from things like world events. As you introduce more and more novelty items, you have to introduce more storage, because it's a bit silly to ask your players to start making choices between novelties.
100 Dwarf Warrior
17085
02/07/2013 06:41 PMPosted by Bomdanil
The one with fewer spots than there are classes in the game.


Incorrect for the reasons listed before you ever posted.

Haha, I've been "posting about it" since Cataclysm's beta when they went down this ridiculous path, but welcome to the conversation, son.

Anyways GC has already expressed regret over not picking a smarter (and likely single -- although he didn't go that far) raid model so your cited 'reasons' are moot.
90 Gnome Warlock
1785
02/07/2013 09:53 PMPosted by Vulgrym
Anyways GC has already expressed regret over not picking a smarter (and likely single -- although he didn't go that far) raid model so your cited 'reasons' are moot.


Yes, GC would probably have us all running 40m raids if he had his way. He has an unhealthy obsession with everything that sucked about MMOs 8 years ago.
90 Orc Shaman
13750
02/07/2013 10:06 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Anyways GC has already expressed regret over not picking a smarter (and likely single -- although he didn't go that far) raid model so your cited 'reasons' are moot.


Yes, GC would probably have us all running 40m raids if he had his way. He has an unhealthy obsession with everything that sucked about MMOs 8 years ago.


That's ironic. Most of the older MMOs - and even some of the newer - abhor any sort of class homogenization, yet among the first things WoW did under GC was start the ball rolling on that. That's largely what made 10m possible in the first place.

Also, if that were true the grind would have increased going into Wrath and Cataclysm instead of decreasing and being almost nonexistent, respectively. It's the players that asked for the reintroduction of that stuff, and WoW's "grind" is still less than any other MMO.

Then there's gear. MMOs 8 years ago, (and some of the new ones) made what we'd call "epic gear" pretty damn exclusive. First expansion with GC at the helm - suddenly epics are easier to get, to the point now where you don't even need to step into dungeons or raids to acquire epic gear equivalent to raiding.

Maybe you should reevaluate.
24 Tauren Druid
10320
GC's power is not absolute when it comes to all things WOW. He has admitted several times that hes an old school MMO guy, and personally regretted adding things like flight, etc.
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