10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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MVP - World of Warcraft
100 Night Elf Druid
14945


Tip to the ones who will fall into the trap: 10m raids existed before 25m raids did.

As far as I remember, all of the original instances that we now call "5-mans" (including Scholomance, etc) used to be able to hold 10 people (even if the quests only gave you credit outside of a raid). However, we didn't call them raids. We called them instances. Even Upper Blackrock Spire we didn't consider to be a raid, and we could originally take a full 15 people in there.

That's actually the reason why I can't take 10-mans seriously as raid content. It's just instance grouping to me - and smaller than the UBRS instance that we PUG'd out of the server's general chat. The small-scale content doesn't feel epic to me. I know that a lot of people really love 10-mans, but as someone who enjoyed raiding 40 mans and was already bummed when they down-sized to 25, I just get no real enjoyment out of 10s.
100 Undead Death Knight
23160
Why do we need everything to be more complex? Already we have to gem, enchant, reforge, and upgrade our gear, and by the time we actually get BIS gear the tier is over, and now you want to add thunderforged gear? For most of us anyways, we do not reside in the guild Blood Legion and are instead casual players, relatively.

There is absolutely no reason to make things more complex. There is absolutely no reason to change the drop rates between 10 man and 25 man. You are making things more complex in order to force an ideal upon your customers to which there is no demand.

This is a bad decision. Just like CRZ was a bad decision (its the reason I refuse to take my main toon out of Pandaria, where there is no CRZ), just like overemphasizing dailies was a bad decision and is pushing people away from the game. Just like the way RNG works in LFR was a bad desision.

Remember Dragonwraith back in Firelands? 25 man guilds would get 4 legendaries before a 10 man guild would get their first. Don't turn this into that.
90 Orc Shaman
13550
02/09/2013 05:23 AMPosted by Hiroshíma
what if you gave items 3 levels of upgrades, while the 3rd costing some sort of thunder token. same idea drops more off 25 man bosses. that way you dont have people taking loot one week putting enchants and crap and then redoing it on the same gear with 6 more ilvls.


I'd say it's going to be pretty rare to have someone get a piece of gear 1 week and then get the same piece Thunderforged the next week.

Also, enchants, gems, and reforges.. those aren't exactly hard or expensive.
100 Gnome Mage
20105
02/08/2013 05:55 PMPosted by Lissanna
That's actually the reason why I can't take 10-mans seriously as raid content. It's just instance grouping to me - and smaller than the UBRS instance that we PUG'd out of the server's general chat. The small-scale content doesn't feel epic to me. I know that a lot of people really love 10-mans, but as someone who enjoyed raiding 40 mans and was already bummed when they down-sized to 25, I just get no real enjoyment out of 10s.


Ditto. Not epic to me either since I raided 40s, and when I do 10 man alt runs it doesn't feel like I'm raiding with a "guild" persay. To each their own though. I'm sure a lot of players on dead servers would rather raid 10 mans than not raid at all because the population doesn't support 25ms.
Edited by Digerati on 2/9/2013 2:10 PM PST
80 Troll Druid
5670
The path of least resistance, it's been said, but honestly unless they completely kill 10 mans (not saying they should, simmer down) the only chance to retain/revive 25 mans is to make them easier to be honest, both Normal and Heroic that is. The only thing that will get people to try and maintain that big of a roster is a smoother, easier time to progress. People forced themselves to raid 25s when it had the best of everything, now that things are equal people obviously chose the easier to manage raid size.

The only other option is to revert the changes they made, and give 10 mans different/lesser loot then 25s, but I don't see them doing that now pandora's box is open.

I know these things have probably been said a million times already in this thread, but it really is as simple as that.
The only benefits to this change go to the high pop servers. Low population servers that can't even find a 10th man for a PUG if one person is sick is screwed. Otherwise it just puts bigger gaps between 25-man raids and 10-man raids in terms of gear and progress. Even if you have equally-skilled players in each group, the 25-man group still has an advantage. 25M encounters are already generally easier on most fights and allow more room for error, especially on heroic raids where a single miss by a 10-man player is a wipe or the fact that pugging someone is either 10% of your group versus 4% of your group.

And don't say "change realms." This is a vanilla day 1 server and its not my problem that Blizzard couldn't retain players. Otherwise, open up cross-realm raids to servers that meet certain population criteria maybe?
84 Undead Warlock
0
I would rather they keep the 10 and 25 Man raid gear the same but on 25 man they make the gear upgraded already.

For example

Gear 520 drops from Normal 10 and 25 But the 25 one would have 2/2 upgrade so eventually when the people who do 10's can upgrade the 10 man gear with extra valor so both items would be same.

So pretty much 25man would save you extra valor for the upgrades that you would do now.
I would rather they keep the 10 and 25 Man raid gear the same but on 25 man they make the gear upgraded already.

For example

Gear 520 drops from Normal 10 and 25 But the 25 one would have 2/2 upgrade so eventually when the people who do 10's can upgrade the 10 man gear with extra valor so both items would be same.

So pretty much 25man would save you extra valor for the upgrades that you would do now.


Aside from them removing the upgrade feature in 5.2? That also would essentially put a player 1.5 weeks behind on ilvl per drop. someone that clears a whole raid and gets 1 item per boss is ahead 5 months.
100 Gnome Warlock
3735
I would rather they keep the 10 and 25 Man raid gear the same but on 25 man they make the gear upgraded already.

For example

Gear 520 drops from Normal 10 and 25 But the 25 one would have 2/2 upgrade so eventually when the people who do 10's can upgrade the 10 man gear with extra valor so both items would be same.

So pretty much 25man would save you extra valor for the upgrades that you would do now.


Aside from them removing the upgrade feature in 5.2? That also would essentially put a player 1.5 weeks behind on ilvl per drop. someone that clears a whole raid and gets 1 item per boss is ahead 5 months.


The idea has potential, but as you said that requires the upgraders to remain in the game in order for it to have any realistic chance of working.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10520
It is good to see that this is a cautious and calculated move. I do not even see alot of traffic in Chat channels to ask for runs or people to join them. Progression in my server is verifiably low as some are still mainly in Moshugan Vaults and the second one too.

I find it that the best thing to come out of the changes were indeed LFR. To the lucky few that are on servers were there is some hardcore raiding going on, all the best. This will mean some interesting twists on your gear rolls.

As for those of us that only raid in LFR due to the insanely low populations of real raiders where we are, this means absolutely nothing for us. Maybe if it dropped from a coin / Elder Charm from a Raid boss on LFR, it would be great as I could actually see 1 or 2 on the server. If it weren't for LFR I would not have raided anything in Pandaria other than the Sha of Anger. /Sigh not even the other world bosses... I like changes like this one, it will benefit some.
91 Blood Elf Priest
7420
So many whingers on this forum. There's a decline in 25m raiding, so Blizzard want to give us an incentive, which will in no way affect you 10m people. Either change to 25m or quit your whinging and move on. It's no wonder Blizzard only respond to very few people on these forums, they take too much for granted.
90 Tauren Paladin
4685
But the sad thing is that there are tiny servers with tiny guilds who cant run raids at all. In those cases players can only gear from lfrs and do not see the higher sought after gear ever.
90 Dwarf Shaman
5335
Very nice! I love it
100 Draenei Death Knight
13965
25 already drops more gear per boss per person and allows for key role redundancy.
A group takes on the logistical difficulties of 25 in order to gain the benefits of more plentiful gear drops and reduced difficulty.

(Yes, 25s are less difficult than 10s because a higher amount of players is more forgiving of individual player error or sub optimal compositions. 10s are far less forgiving of player error and the loss of a single dps or healer could cause a wipe. 10s are also much more composition reliant with some comps or strategies simply not being viable.)

Giving unequal chances at above average IL gear from the same bosses depending on raid size is not going to increase the amount of 25 groups out there, as most guilds capable of supporting 25s are already doing so due to the aforementioned benefits of 25. Bliz you are only giving those groups an unfair advantage while failing at your projected goal of increasing the amount of 25 groups.
90 Troll Druid
14580
02/12/2013 10:08 AMPosted by Havïk
Yes, 25s are less difficult than 10s because a higher amount of players is more forgiving of individual player error or sub optimal compositions.

And your examples to prove this are, presumably, anything that is not Feng, Spirit Kings, Elegon, Will of the Emperor, Vizier, Garalon, Wind Lord, Amber-shaper, Empress, Protectors, Tsulong, and Sha of Fear? You know..things that have personal responsibility.
Edited by Cyous on 2/12/2013 8:18 PM PST
100 Night Elf Hunter
9485
Can't wait!
90 Night Elf Rogue
0
I think 25 mans should have better gear drops, rarer drops, and special mount drops. It rewards those who can band together and get things done on a broader scale. If people that do 10 mans don't like it, tough. Go cry to your mommy about it and rage quit. Bring the 40 mans back...lol, that'd be interesting.
100 Blood Elf Mage
16120
Give 10 and 25 man raids seperate lock outs.
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